This is an interesting point. It does feel like we have been a team in transition for 10/15 years, like we are stuck in some sort of awful time loop. At some point we have to stabilise and start to see something me success.
What are the ‘standards’?
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I feel 'standards have dropped' is often used as a line as a way to cope with the new reality that Manchester United isnt as dominant as it used to be. I dont think Manchester United will ever be as dominant as we were during Sir Alex his time so i dont think it is that bad to ''lower the standard'' from the Sir Alex period and become a little bit more realistic.
We wont win the title every year and we wont challenge for it every single year. When Sir Alex his Manchester United had a bad year, we still finished third. When a topteam has a bad year now you wont get into the CL spots with City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs, Villa, Spurs and Newcastle all hunting for those few precious spots too. The Premier League has become too strong and every team has become way too rich for Manchester United to become superdominant again. City has done it but well.. they might not have done that in a fair way. The time that Manchester United could buy Spurs their star striker (Berbatov) and use him in some sort of rotation option and not even use him in a CL final are gone. Manchester United wont have an Ole willing to be a third/fourth choice option because a player can earn almost as much money at another club and also play games. City couldnt even keep Alvarez to stick around and bask in all the succes of that team.
However, a club with the spending power Manchester United has and the amount of money players still earn does mean certain things should be expected. A lot more than currently is on display should be expected. I dont think it the standard currently is that the current situation is acceptable. Im pretty certain the only reason ETH is still in his job is because there wasnt (and isnt) a clear cut option out there to replace him. I think INEOS are waiting to hire a manager who has a high chance to be a succes instead of taking a gamble on a manager who could be a succes.
We wont win the title every year and we wont challenge for it every single year. When Sir Alex his Manchester United had a bad year, we still finished third. When a topteam has a bad year now you wont get into the CL spots with City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs, Villa, Spurs and Newcastle all hunting for those few precious spots too. The Premier League has become too strong and every team has become way too rich for Manchester United to become superdominant again. City has done it but well.. they might not have done that in a fair way. The time that Manchester United could buy Spurs their star striker (Berbatov) and use him in some sort of rotation option and not even use him in a CL final are gone. Manchester United wont have an Ole willing to be a third/fourth choice option because a player can earn almost as much money at another club and also play games. City couldnt even keep Alvarez to stick around and bask in all the succes of that team.
However, a club with the spending power Manchester United has and the amount of money players still earn does mean certain things should be expected. A lot more than currently is on display should be expected. I dont think it the standard currently is that the current situation is acceptable. Im pretty certain the only reason ETH is still in his job is because there wasnt (and isnt) a clear cut option out there to replace him. I think INEOS are waiting to hire a manager who has a high chance to be a succes instead of taking a gamble on a manager who could be a succes.
I genuinely don't believe we have any at the moment. The manager was allowed to keep his job after he led us to our worst ever Premier League and Champions League finishes in the same season, just because we won that FA Cup final. The football is worse than it has been under any other manager in the last decade and there are no signs of anything improving, nor have there been for a long time.
Say what you want about how we operated when Ed Woodward was CEO, but even then we were more proactive in giving an underperforming manager the boot than we are now. There was a line in the sand if the manager didn't deliver Champions League football or if it became obvious before that point that it wasn't going to happen. That should be the minimum expectation, even in this era where we've been dysfunctional.
I'd have sacked the manager after we were knocked out of the League Cup and Champions League last year. If you can't be competitive at home to Newcastle's second string side or in a pretty tame Champions League group with teams like Copenhagen and Galatasaray, it's pretty clear you're not cut out for the gig here. That's after we'd already blown a comfortable buffer in the Europa League to Sevilla the season before and been on the wrong end of several thrashings in the league. It's a complete mystery how the same man hasn't been sacked a year on after bringing more of the same on a consistent basis.
Say what you want about how we operated when Ed Woodward was CEO, but even then we were more proactive in giving an underperforming manager the boot than we are now. There was a line in the sand if the manager didn't deliver Champions League football or if it became obvious before that point that it wasn't going to happen. That should be the minimum expectation, even in this era where we've been dysfunctional.
I'd have sacked the manager after we were knocked out of the League Cup and Champions League last year. If you can't be competitive at home to Newcastle's second string side or in a pretty tame Champions League group with teams like Copenhagen and Galatasaray, it's pretty clear you're not cut out for the gig here. That's after we'd already blown a comfortable buffer in the Europa League to Sevilla the season before and been on the wrong end of several thrashings in the league. It's a complete mystery how the same man hasn't been sacked a year on after bringing more of the same on a consistent basis.
The "standard" should at the very least reflect the available resources. If you simply aren't able to compete with X financially, then it is entirely acceptable that you finish below X (you would have to over-perform/they would have to under-perform for you to have a realistic chance of finishing above them).
Is it acceptable for Manchester United to finish below Aston Villa?
No, it is not. Clearly not.
(United have spent so much money in the post-Fergie era for so very little actual success...it's not funny, it's bloody tragic from a fan perspective.)
Is it acceptable for Manchester United to finish below Aston Villa?
No, it is not. Clearly not.
(United have spent so much money in the post-Fergie era for so very little actual success...it's not funny, it's bloody tragic from a fan perspective.)
Agreee overall but I think you have to judge it on a case by case basis, if Villa are getting 80 points and have a great team/manager then it’s okay to finish below them. It’s not acceptable to finish below them because you have -1 goal difference over 38 games.
More like reconciliation. I think ultimately we’ll get better and be competitive but it’s going to take Ashworth at least a couple of seasons to stamp his signature on the squad and they’re clearly not looking to shake things up from the root.Realist or defeatist?
People claiming fans are part of a problem are often mocked on here, but I believe there is some truth to it.
What is acceptable is often a by product of what someone can get away with it. Man Utd at this time can get away with being a mediocre club on the pitch because fans will keep vocally expressing their support and ensuring our revenues remain high. Of course, everyone is entitled to how they support the club, but had we collectively been more harsh with our managers and players, things might have been different?
We had people singing for ETH and LVG despite their absolute terrible football. We set those standards that our support will accept this. So it's hard to now criticise anyone else for a slip in the standards. I do not know what Ineos' expectations are, but again we seem to have accepted that where they take us, we follow. It's a very different culture to say in Spain. It has it's merits, but one of the downsides is unwarranted support we give a lot of people associated with the club.
What is acceptable is often a by product of what someone can get away with it. Man Utd at this time can get away with being a mediocre club on the pitch because fans will keep vocally expressing their support and ensuring our revenues remain high. Of course, everyone is entitled to how they support the club, but had we collectively been more harsh with our managers and players, things might have been different?
We had people singing for ETH and LVG despite their absolute terrible football. We set those standards that our support will accept this. So it's hard to now criticise anyone else for a slip in the standards. I do not know what Ineos' expectations are, but again we seem to have accepted that where they take us, we follow. It's a very different culture to say in Spain. It has it's merits, but one of the downsides is unwarranted support we give a lot of people associated with the club.
Yes, I should have said "over time".
In all likelihood, we will finish well below Villa again this season.
I've said it before but the notion of a "long term rebuild" at a club as big as ours shouldn't really exist in the modern game. Time and again it's been proven that the biggest clubs can turn around fortunes drastically within a season or two with proper management and a couple of quality windows. Which is why Ten Hag should have been canned last winter when it was clear he didn't know what he was doing, regardless of injuries. Instead we let him hang around for another calendar year of shite (probbaly more) in the name of a "process" that shouldn't fecking exist! It only took Arsenal as long as it did because they basically fecked off every player on any sort of big wage and went with a full youngster squad for Arteta to develop the initial years before splashing the cash. Even then the improvements in performances over time were evident so there wasn't a need for panic from decision makers.
Imagine if Real had stuck with Lopetegui or Solari in the name of "giving them time and backing the manager!" instead of realizing both were gash and moving on quickly to not let the issues fester. But we let managers ruin us for 2 straight seasons before deciding to move on, and YET AGAIN this season we are waiting until this cnut makes it impossible for us to get top 4 or win anything in Europe before sacking him when anyone with half a brain on here could have told you a month ago he deserves to go.
People think we are "cursed" or need a full 5-10 year rebuild need to take a look around at how other clubs have done it and notice how quickly fortunes can change
A fan base is so weird, we are the only fanbase that is willing to cheer on a drop in standards, even fans from midtable clubs will actively boo the manager at their home ground when the team go on a bad run, let alone the fans of the big 6 or a big European club and you wonder why we are falling behind so many teams domestically and in europe, our home fans a just like "everything is fine, keep on clapping the manager", it's been like this for all post fergie mangers.
The irony is we have missed out on actual good managers that would have delivered a lengthy positive spell for the club but ignored them in favour of giving whatever hopeless manager we had at the time "more time".
The irony is we have missed out on actual good managers that would have delivered a lengthy positive spell for the club but ignored them in favour of giving whatever hopeless manager we had at the time "more time".
I'll probably get stick for this, but I'm sick of the players high five-ing each other for some last ditch defending or save. That's your job. Save the high fives for when you actually win something.
Fully agreed
I mean, we rewarded a manager who had us finish in our lowest PL position to date (he may break that record this season), playing some of the most suicidal football we've ever seen. Then you factor in our embarrassing showing in Europe, negative goal difference, etc.
The FA Cup was nice, but it shouldn't have been enough to save him. It didn't save van Gaal whose last season here was better than ten Hag's previous one.
Then you see how a decent hour or so against a Crystal Palace team that sit 18th, and have failed to win 1 game this season, is praised by so many despite us failing to win, and by all accounts could have ended up losing with the chances they had in the 2nd half, and it's clear that the standards are rock bottom.
1 performance where we don't lose and maybe put in around a half or so of decent football is usually enough to get most feeling positive again. Even if we lose to West Ham, a win or hard fought draw against Leicester would end up being enough to warrant silencing the criticism for many. Rinse and repeat.
The FA Cup was nice, but it shouldn't have been enough to save him. It didn't save van Gaal whose last season here was better than ten Hag's previous one.
Then you see how a decent hour or so against a Crystal Palace team that sit 18th, and have failed to win 1 game this season, is praised by so many despite us failing to win, and by all accounts could have ended up losing with the chances they had in the 2nd half, and it's clear that the standards are rock bottom.
1 performance where we don't lose and maybe put in around a half or so of decent football is usually enough to get most feeling positive again. Even if we lose to West Ham, a win or hard fought draw against Leicester would end up being enough to warrant silencing the criticism for many. Rinse and repeat.
Is that not just called patience? After all United fans are preconditioned to be supportive by the likes of Sir Alex’s ‘your job is to support the new manager’ and Ole Gunnars ‘trust the process’ etc.
van Gaal was clipped because Jose was snapped up. Ineos don't have such an obvious upgrade to hand.
Also, as bad as finishing eighth was, we had a devastating injury crisis to deal with. I agree the football was 'suicidal', but it's to be expected when the manager is demanded to get results no matter what.
What exactly is it we are expected to do? Invade the pitch and get matches called off? Camp outside his house? Harangue players when they are in public?
I'm not being hyperbolic, either, I'd just like to know exactly in what way we, as supporters, could be doing more to uplift standards.
Because, given our precarious finances, boycotting en masse is out.
We ( myself included) have been singing We want Glazers out for years at OT. Yet we have never sung we want an underperforming manager out. The Spurs game is an obvious example. Had OT started chanting we want Ten Hag out towards the end, I highly doubt he would have survived the sack.
I'm not blaming anybody. It is our culture at Utd not to turn on managers, and it is something that is holding us back for now. But I don't see it changing, it is part of our identity, for better or worse, to be that loyal to managers.
Would be nice to have a non-negative goal difference
Was thinking this kind of thing yesterday when I saw Onana talking about being disappointed with not winning at Fenerbahce, saying we're a big club from his post match interview.
Was trying to put myself in his shoes, wondering what the hell you actually say.
In terms of where we are in the league and what we did last season a point there is fine. Compared to what we once were and strive to be again it would be negtative especially when you add together the 3 draws in Europe.
Comes back to that Mourinho interview post-Seville in a way. If Onana says we are just a mediocre club and for a mediocre club it's an ok result, even if he says he's part of that mediocrity obviously the fans are going to be pissed off. Can also be seen as a dig at his teammates and manager in a way.
On the other hand you can only go so long saying we must do better and we're bigger than this until maybe you realise you can't (from his perspective and his view of his teammates/manager) and you conclude that this is our level, nothing special.
There should never be an element of giving in and not trying do better of course.
Was trying to put myself in his shoes, wondering what the hell you actually say.
In terms of where we are in the league and what we did last season a point there is fine. Compared to what we once were and strive to be again it would be negtative especially when you add together the 3 draws in Europe.
Comes back to that Mourinho interview post-Seville in a way. If Onana says we are just a mediocre club and for a mediocre club it's an ok result, even if he says he's part of that mediocrity obviously the fans are going to be pissed off. Can also be seen as a dig at his teammates and manager in a way.
On the other hand you can only go so long saying we must do better and we're bigger than this until maybe you realise you can't (from his perspective and his view of his teammates/manager) and you conclude that this is our level, nothing special.
There should never be an element of giving in and not trying do better of course.
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To be fair he could have actually answered the question he was asked which was about his own performance in the game!
Champions League qualification is the minimum any manager should be achieving in his second season and beyond
Watching El Clasico now...
...we have absolutely no standards at all right now.
It's like a different sport.
...we have absolutely no standards at all right now.
It's like a different sport.
Anyone who shows even a an iota of allowing this manager to stay is a disgrace. We've conceded more goals than we scored this season and last. It's absolute mental if you really think about it. We have zero standards
To be fair he could have actually answered the question he was asked which was about his own performance in the game!
True enough!
Wasn't asked that question on that particular occasion. Still, the players often are and I wouldn't know how to answer at the moment. What standards are you judging us by? Must be in their heads too if they are asked.
Is it good to draw in Turkey (recent standards), bad (past standards), what kind of club actually are we? Think if it were me I'd say to let fans judge it and that I'm not going to!
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This seems really insulting to the fans who actually pay to go see many of our matches and bought the season tickets.
I'd say that's largely because the people in charge of the current rebuild 2022-2024 have made a complete balls up of it. This has been exacerbated by having a manager out of his depth kept in charge for at least 12 months longer than he should have been having tanked one season and in the process of going for 2 in a row. We're further away from challenging for the title than we've ever been post SAF. Right now it's looking like a top 4 challenge is even beyond us and I don't think that could have ever been said under Louis, Jose , Ole and even Dave.
The 3-5 year rebuild is to United what ''next year is our year'' was to the Scousers. Just a load of bollocks to excuse failing managers and give some fans comfort that we're making some sort of progress when in actual fact the square root of feck all is being achieved.
We love to call ourselves the biggest club in the world, so our standards should be the pursuit of success and expectation befitting the biggest club in the world.
We excuse so much nonsense at the club. Things that would never be accepted at Madrid, Bayern and City are regularly tolerated here.
We excuse so much nonsense at the club. Things that would never be accepted at Madrid, Bayern and City are regularly tolerated here.
I don't think United fans have any standards anymore. I have seen genuine posts on here saying people would be happy to finish top eight.
Any united fan willing to stick with Ten Hag what what we have seen from him has no standards
Any united fan willing to stick with Ten Hag what what we have seen from him has no standards
It's a pure art form that United can find the most limited, most injured and most technically inept players out there. I see it as a skill nowadays
Considering your squad investment I would say that the minimum your manager should be achieving at this stage would be champions league qualification, a deep run in Europe and a decent showing in the domestic cups.
You are miles off a proper challenge but there also should be some signals that you are improving and with a couple of tweaks could challenge next season.
You are miles off a proper challenge but there also should be some signals that you are improving and with a couple of tweaks could challenge next season.
Yep and the thing with Arsenal was the doubts were (and still are) about them having the bottle. As seen when they failed and finished 5th in Arteta's 2nd full season having bottled top 4.
But look at that, Arsenal did a full rebuild under him, finishing 8th in the season he took over from Emery halfway through then 8th once they went young with their transfers in his first full season. And within 1 1/2 seasons he should have finished 4th in that second full season. Progress.
Regression under ETH.
Indeed.
We're the only club on the planet where it's acceptable for the manager to manage a squad that has £200-300m spent on it every summer but then waffle on about hopefully challenging for 4th if all goes well and shite like making it hard for Fenerbache to beat us and a draw is a good result.
We spend more than Real Madrid but have the standards of Real Betis.
I think we need to go with Arsenal strategy. First, accept the club position. We are may be 6th to 10th level club. So set similar expectations at the beginning. Go for cheaper available talent who may not be of great potential but fitter and have enough skills to keep club hanging around 6 to 7 position. This way save money for key signings. Then try finding 2-3 impact players in two seasons who can fit in the team and can improve it to 4-5 position. Repeat the cycle until you start fighting for top position.
Arsenal was barely a Top 10 club in terms of economic heft at that point, to be fair. With annual revenues of roughly €446 million, whereas the Top 3 of Barcelona, Real Madrid and Manchester United boasted revenues of roughly €841 million, €747 million and €711 million respectively. Closer to the likes of West Ham and Everton than the crème de la crème of club football, to put things into perspective. As such, their strategy through that period was largely defined by their own economic limitations (which afforded them less margin for error and less room for maneuver); them being frugal and long-suffering was circumstantial, not necessarily a matter of deliberate choice and principle.
Even as recently as last year they were barely Top 10 in terms of economic heft, trailing a sputtering, anaemic Manchester United by roughly €200 million...
Yes, we need to wise up to the fact that we're in a bit of a pickle, and every year out in the wilderness leads to further degradation of the insitution in a myriad ways (especially in comparison with clubs that were once our peer competitors in the elite rungs with regard to capabilities and intentions, like Bayern Munich and Barcelona). There's no room for denial at this stage, that much is abundantly clear. But, we should have greater expectations and a quicker hypothetical “recovery arc”, compared with Arsenal in 2019 (who went from 8th in the Premier League to title contention after 3 summer windows) or indeed Liverpool in 2016 (who went from 8th in the Premier League to title contention and the European Cup final after 3 summer windows), simply because while the club has undoubtedly diminished in stature, it has extraordinary resources at its disposal, relative to those clubs at those junctures, even accounting for Profit & Sustainability Regulations and Financial Fair Play constraints.
Football's not that complicated, at the end of the day. A few key individuals can make all the difference, the fortunes of a club that can be categorized as an absolute economic powerhouse can be dramatically altered with just 2 summer windows of optimized recruitment and the appointment of the appropriate manager. Unfortunately, we did not make the most of the summer window gone by (with the immediate qualitative improvement of the first team in mind) and have inexplicably decided to stick with an inappropriate manager — essentially, unforced errors that have impeded our developmental trajectory for the time being.
As regards the primary topic of discussion, I'd echo what @Chesterlestreet has to say. If the club is Top 3-5 in terms of economic heft, it must be one of the Top 3-5 clubs in Europe in terms of sporting competitiveness, performance, entertainment value, a sense of sustained dominance, and so forth. Which translates to: earnestly and consistently competing for the Champions League and Premier League titles, regularly putting lesser opposition (for lack of a better term) to the sword and playing a somewhat entertaining brand of football, over the course of a standard season, excluding blips and outliers (which are statistical inevitabilities unless you do almost everything right, year in and year out). Anything less is undeperformance, relative to resources at Manchester United's disposal. Anything less for an appreciable period of time is chronic underperformance (heads need to roll by this point).
We're Manchester United. We're not a sacking club.
Fergie would never have made that career of his if we just sacked him 3 years into his tenure.
The standards have changed so much to the point where if one hour after the match you find yourself to be in a relaxed situation without experiencing heart palpitations, then it's considered as a good week.
As well as the manager the players should be judged on their second season as well. If the players are not playing to a good enough standard, or are having several injuries in that period, they should be transfer listed and moved on ASAP. We still have a player from VG era and a couple from Jose, right up to now, who get massive contracts after either being injury prone, or simply not good enough.
According to Bobby Charlton, who was one of Fergie's biggest supporters in the early days, Fergie's job was safe because Bobby and the board could see what he was doing behind the scenes. The results on the pitch may have been poor but Fergie was rebuilding our youth system from the ground up and it was that which impressed Bobby and Edwards.
We keep needing rebuilds because our standards as a so called big club are pathetic and reactive, it's going to be 3 full seasons of having a waste of space like antony at this club, 3 seasons!! Do you think antony would have survived even 1 season at barca or madrid, same with so many players at this club, we sit on poor to average players for 3 or 4 seasons with the same naive hope we have in managers coming good and it only ends in a bigger mess like having to pay off players remaining contracts to move them on, having to accept pathetic transfer fees or leaving on a free.
You can tell after one season if they are up to the task, sancho should have been sold after his first full season under ten hag, we should have been trying to loan or sell mount in the summer, same with zirkzee in the next January or summer window if he keeps up his current performance but knowing our club he will still be here in 3 seasons time putting poor performances.
You can tell after one season if they are up to the task, sancho should have been sold after his first full season under ten hag, we should have been trying to loan or sell mount in the summer, same with zirkzee in the next January or summer window if he keeps up his current performance but knowing our club he will still be here in 3 seasons time putting poor performances.
Don't always have to win. Don't always have to play well. But you work hard and give everything.
The tolerance, and even the idolising, of players who don't even come close to that standard over the last few years has been stomach churning to watch.
The tolerance, and even the idolising, of players who don't even come close to that standard over the last few years has been stomach churning to watch.
The standard for a club of United’s stature should be to challenge for the title every single season.
Our domestic title bid should not be over before Christmas after spending hundreds of millions on new players every summer.
Our domestic title bid should not be over before Christmas after spending hundreds of millions on new players every summer.