Westminster Politics

Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Yes, and he's realised they're likely to not be elected if they keep spouting these unachievable and easily derided policies
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I actually very much agree, but can completely understand people who would prefer to vote for policies they actually believe in, rather than a slight divergence from the current governance.
 
finneh said:
I actually very much agree, but can completely understand people who would prefer to vote for policies they actually believe in, rather than a slight divergence from the current governance.
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I don't think it's that far apart, the first goal is getting elected. Without it, nothing can happen.
 
TheGame said:
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Whatever it takes, these scumbag c**ts have to be booted out of parliament.

Edit: at some point, you'll have elected politicians calling these migrants
"rag-heads" or "muzzers"
on Twitter, and the rest of the party machine will go on the morning round to defend it. I feel so deeply ashamed and angry at this country.
 
There was a time and place where comments like that would result in suspension and possible expulsion from the party. Just shows how much in the gutter the Conservative Party have brought British politics.
 
TheGame said:
There was a time and place where comments like that would result in suspension and possible expulsion from the party. Just shows how much in the gutter the Conservative Party have brought British politics.
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No matter what they do, they'll never have the press call them out for it.

Brown immediately apologized "profusely" on the radio show to Gillian Duffy, the woman he called bigoted.

Duffy questioned Brown on why so many "Eastern Europeans" were being allowed into Britain. Brown calmly explained that as many Brits had moved to Europe as Europeans had moved to Britain.

Brown's trip to Duffy's house became a major political spectacle in Britain. He was greeted by a frenzied crowd of journalists. "Has this ruined your campaign?" one journalist asked. "Mr. Brown, Mr. Brown do you regret your comments to Mrs Duffy?" others yelled.

"This is a disaster," BBC News' Political Editor Nick Robinson immediately claimed. "He insulted a member of the public and not just any member of the public....the very sort of voter Labour [Gordon Brown] needs in this election....white, working class people...the sort of people who vote."

"I do apologize if I've said anything that has been hurtful," Brown said on the air.

"He's an educated person, why has he come out with words like that?" Duffy asked. "He's calling an ordinary woman who's just come up and asked questions ... a bigot."

"I think Gordon Brown has apologized. Quite right, too, because if you are answering peoples' questions, you have got to answer those questions with a sense of respect, whatever you think of them, not insult them." Clegg told Sky News.

David Cameron, the Conservative Party leader has yet to comment but his number two, Shadow Chancellor George Osborne, said "That's the thing about general elections, they do reveal the truth about people."

Gary O'Donoghue, BBC political correspondent, was certain of the damage Brown had caused.

"People often talk about political gaffes in terms of car crashes. But this is no car crash, this is a multi-lane, multi-vehicle pile-up of enormous proportion," he wrote on the BBC news website.
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If only the media were interested in creating a scandal when it came to actual Tory scandals...
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The small boats are not going to stop
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Of course they are, there is no other way forward for this or any other the government in resolving current or future border security, especially for an island nation . Along with climate change, migration, energy and water issues will all dominate the next two or may be three decades. Governments (of whatever hue) will have to 'get tough' in all these matters, those that don't will face political oblivion.

It is undoubtedly true the Tories are using this as a political 'means to and end', but if they succeed then Labour will have to do the same.

A government, any governments' first duty is the protection of its people, this is where the Tories/Right wing press are taking this matter and they will seek to escalate it and will probably try to establish the position before Rishi calls the next GE. If they are successful then Labour could struggle to gain a decent majority at the next GE, which is what the Tories now hope for, they know they cant win, but they can 'hobble' any new Labour Government taking office with a small majority, and the small boats issue is their 'Trojan horse', in doing just that.

UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Go and Look at the actual data on the number of asylum seekers arriving via criminal gangs. It’s vanishingly small.
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The size of the matter will be irrelevant in political terms, they are using criminal activity to try to force their claims, which may well be justified, but this aspect will continue to get lost in the political mix, especially less than 2 years out from a GE where the present government is facing annihilation or close to it next time out.
 
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Maticmaker said:
Of course they are, there is no other way forward for this or any other the government in resolving current or future border security, especially for an island nation . Along with climate change, migration, energy and water issues will all dominate the next two or may be three decades. Governments (of whatever hue) will have to 'get tough' in all these matters, those that don't will face political oblivion.

It is undoubtedly true the Tories are using this as a political 'means to and end', but if they succeed then Labour will have to do the same.

A government, any governments' first duty is the protection of its people, this is where the Tories/Right wing press are taking this matter and they will seek to escalate it and will probably try to establish the position before Rishi calls the next GE. If they are successful then Labour could struggle to gain a decent majority at the next GE, which is what the Tories now hope for, they know they cant win, but they can 'hobble' any new Labour Government taking office with a small minority, and the small boats issue is their 'Trojan horse', in doing just that.



The size of the matter will be irrelevant in political terms, they are using criminal activity to try to force their claims, which may well be justified, but this aspect will continue get lost in the political mix, especially less than 2 years out from a GE where the present government is facing annihilation or close to it next time out.
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Of course it's a political weapon but they don't want to solve it even if they could. The government have completely messed up the country in every way imaginable. The only thing they've got left are foreigners.
But you never hear of them arresting any traffickers in the UK, which is where some of them are as part of the network.

There is only one way of at least reducing it and that is the safe legal route method. They have no power outside of the UK. Brexit has meant they have no control outside the Dublin agreement.

If they carry on with the current programme which will probably break the ECHR and the UN regulations, they'll do even more damage to the country by possibly losing their trade deals.

None of this matters, only power.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Of course it's a political weapon but they don't want to solve it even if they could. The government have completely messed up the country in every way imaginable. The only thing they've got left are foreigners.
But you never hear of them arresting any traffickers in the UK, which is where some of them are as part of the network.

There is only one way of at least reducing it and that is the safe legal route method. They have no power outside of the UK. Brexit has meant they have no control outside the Dublin agreement.

If they carry on with the current programme which will probably break the ECHR and the UN regulations, they'll do even more damage to the country by possibly losing their trade deals.

None of this matters, only power.
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At least not until after the next GE!

This is not really about a present day issue, there are solutions available; it is however about future issues. The storm clouds are gathering on a number of fronts and all governments will have to face up to the unpleasant decision making, that is looming. 'Playing it tough', especially if for the Tories they believe helps either retain power, or as is more likely to limit the losses for them and/or the majority for the opposition.... Power as you say. is what its all about, and in our FPTP system.... 'first is first, and seconds nowhere'.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Whatever it takes, these scumbag c**ts have to be booted out of parliament.

Edit: at some point, you'll have elected politicians calling these migrants
"rag-heads" or "muzzers"
on Twitter, and the rest of the party machine will go on the morning round to defend it. I feel so deeply ashamed and angry at this country.
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Genuine question, do you not think the Tories are now using this sort of rhetoric because the Overton window has shifted so far to the right, partly down to the position Labour themselves are taking on immigration and asylum?
 
TheGame said:
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"Lee is expressing in salty terms that British people have warms hearts but we also want a secure front door." The English language is truly amazing. Being able to make such a statement whilst telling someone to feck off back to some other country is truly a pioneering feat in linguistics.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
"I heard about asylum applicants playing the system through an over complex appeal system. So we've introduced a single tier of appeal, we've the limited the scope of legal aid, and we've weeded out cowboy immigration advisers."

Tony Blair in 2005.
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Between 1997 and 2005 asylum granted was the highest it had ever been.

It comes from policy derived from the facts. These are the facts.

First, asylum. Asylum application numbers did rise after 1997, as they did in much of the rest of the EU, due to external pressures, but we have legislated to address the situation and the numbers have fallen rapidly. Asylum applications have fallen from over 8,000 a month at the peak in the autumn of 2002 to just over 2,000. The next set of statistics will show that monthly applications are back to their lowest level since March 1997, and have fallen twice as fast as in the rest of Europe.

Asylum applications are being dealt with far quicker than ten years ago. More than four in five asylum decisions are now made within two months. And far more of those whose claims are rejected are being removed - 12,430 removals in 2004, as against 4,820 in 1996. Now the facts on immigration. More people are entering the UK than was the case ten years ago to work or study. But that's precisely what one would want and expect with a strong and growing economy and world-class universities successful in attracting record numbers of international students, and helping to drive our knowledge-based economy.

Foreign students alone contribute £5bn to the UK economy, including a growing proportion of the funding for our universities. With unemployment half the rate it is in France or Germany and 600,000 vacancies, there are plenty of jobs that need doing.

But what Michael Howard doesn't point out is that net migration - the number of people entering the country, minus the number leaving - has actually been falling in recent years, and in 2003 was the lowest it has been since 1998.

Nor does he like to admit that, in international terms, we are not a high immigration country. Even today, we have lower levels of foreign-born nationals as a proportion of our total population than France or Germany and half the foreign born workforce proportion of the United States.

On illegal immigration, no-one, of course, knows precisely how many people are here illegally. Michael Howard himself admitted as much when he said in 1995: "There are no official estimates of the number of illegal immigrants into the United Kingdom. By its very nature, illegal immigration is difficult to measure and any estimates would be highly speculative".

So those are the facts. On asylum, there are continuing issues to be addressed to make the asylum system more efficient and effective - and on immigration, we have nothing to fear from legal immigration, and the issue is whether we are attracting as many of the highest value immigrants as we can, and what more we can do to crack down on illegal immigration.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/apr/22/election2005.immigrationandpublicservices

Full speech, which is in response to Michael Howard trying the same old schtick to usurp Blair by pushing the immigration narrative to try and unsettle and win the election. He doesn't shy away from it, he attacks it head on, agrees we need to tackle illegal immigration but makes the case migration as a net positive.

Blair's response is measured and, in my opinion, really strong.

Another key policy is to withdraw from the Geneva Convention on Refugees. But what would this unilateral treaty withdrawal mean? It would mean Britain standing alone, unable to work with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to identify and manage within the rules those people who have a genuine claim to asylum and those who don't.

Then we come to the flagship Tory asylum policy: the fantasy island to process asylum claims quickly and cheaply without the applicants needing to stay in the UK while this is done. It is two years now since this unnamed offshore island or country was announced - and he still can't say where it would be.

Eighty per cent of asylum-seekers in Britain now claim in-country - ie not at a port but at an inland centre. Is he seriously saying there is some other country that is going to offer to take these people and process their claims for us?

His home affairs spokesman admitted yesterday they had made zero progress on finding anywhere. And Mr Howard's earlier claims of five countries that already had such centres was another fantasy, denounced by the United Nations High Commission on Refugees.
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Again, discussing refugees and our obligations and the Geneva Convention - not exactly right wing.

I think most people know the huge contribution that immigrants have made to our country.

Not just historically - the million and a half Irish migrants to this country in the 19th century; the 120,000 Jewish people who came here before the first world war, largely fleeing persecution in Russia and eastern Europe; the 160,000 Poles who settled here after the second world war, soon followed by large numbers of Italians and then workers from the West Indies and South Asia and, more recently, significant migration from other European countries within the EU.

All these migrants are part of the rich fabric of our nation, every bit as British and valued as any other member of our society.

We also see the positive contribution of contemporary migrants all about us today. In the health service, a million people employed, nearly a third of them first or second generation immigrants. In 2003, one-third of all work permits issued were for health service workers. In financial services - a sector which now employs 300,000 and brings billions of pounds into our economy - migrants play a key role in some of the most skilled jobs in the world.

We will not turn our back on these or other migrants contributing so much to our economy and our society. Without them, London would not be the financial capital of Europe. Without them, how would the NHS actually work?

And when people are fleeing persecution, from Rwanda, Kosovo, Zimbabwe, British people extend their generosity.

I don't underestimate the essential generosity of British people.

When the Tsunami disaster hit South East Asia. Who gave the most? The British people. So let no-one say British people aren't decent, aren't generous.
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Again, not exactly "following the Overton window"
 
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TheGame said:
There was a time and place where comments like that would result in suspension and possible expulsion from the party. Just shows how much in the gutter the Conservative Party have brought British politics.
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If only someone would call them out on it. I'm seriously fuming about how far right we've drifted since 2019. The only party that can do anything about it have just downed tools and are letting it happen.
 
Adisa said:
To put it into context immigrants already pay nearly 1,000 pounds per year for the immigration health surcharge. 99.9% of them will never use the NHS. The hostile nature of this country to immigrants makes my blood boil and brings back bad memories.
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My Wife and I paid around 20000 pounds over the years (from education to Nationality). It boils my blood to this day.
 
Jippy said:
This won't damage Anderson or the Tories, it actually plays to their crowd who'll love it.
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Saying the quiet bit out loud might have the effect of getting their core supporters even more agitated, but I don't believe it works for those that want to pretend to themselves that they can vote tory and still have a conscience.
 
The tories have nothing to offer but culture wars. This shit is depressing.
 
Flying high said:
Saying the quiet bit out loud might have the effect of getting their core supporters even more agitated, but I don't believe it works for those that want to pretend to themselves that they can vote tory and still have a conscience.
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Why? No one knows what box they put their cross in when they vote.
 
Bert_ said:
Why? No one knows what box they put their cross in when they vote.
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That's why I said pretend to themselves. We all know that the tories are the nasty party, but when their stated aims are made to sound reasonable, it's easier to back them and hope that the stories are just made-up lefty fearmongering. Trying not to engage with politics between elections, and blame the choices of others when you see things falling apart. With the current crop of MPs, their nastiness is on full show. Some people are fine with that, unfortunately. But we've all met tory voters who do so mainly because they think labour are only about free stuff for someone else. They don't actually hate all foreigners or minority groups, or want all criminals to be hanged in the square. Or destroy the NHS, or education, or libraries, or public transport, or the rivers, or the beaches, or the roads, or ... sorry got distracted for a moment. The point is, for some of the people who voted tory in the past, their actual politics are nowhere near the nastiness of the current UKIPTories. Even if it's always been bubbling away under the surface, the tories have always had a veneer of respectability and have been the main party for the last century. So voting for them could not really be considered fringe, or extreme. Now though, it certainly should be by anyone paying even the slightest bit of attention.
 
Flying high said:
Saying the quiet bit out loud might have the effect of getting their core supporters even more agitated, but I don't believe it works for those that want to pretend to themselves that they can vote tory and still have a conscience.
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I hope so. The Tory heartlands will love Lee 'telling it like it is' and anyone anti-Tory already found him repulsive.

Not sure how many voters are in that vote Tory yet having a semblance of conscience category.

I'm surprised the story seems pretty low key, given the storm when Rayner said 'Tory scum'.
 
Jippy said:
I hope so. The Tory heartlands will love Lee 'telling it like it is' and anyone anti-Tory already found him repulsive.

Not sure how many voters are in that vote Tory yet having a semblance of conscience category.

I'm surprised the story seems pretty low key, given the storm when Rayner said 'Tory scum'.
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I, for one, am shocked to see no mention of it on the BBC News app.



Something something both sides hate them so doing a good job mumble mumble.
 
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