Do you really think that on policy Labour the Tories are further apart now than at the last GE, or the one before?
Westminster Politics
- Thread starter altodevil
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I don’t buy that Starmer has walked back that big policy to try and retain fiscally conservative voters. I appreciate the argument that you spend on those policies in those industries and get it all back but I can also see why, right now, putting the breaks on is sensible. I don’t consider myself conservative.
If the Tories aren’t wiped out and have too loud a voice after the next GE it makes any chance of doing any good that bit more difficult.
The thought of the Tories getting away with 14 years of misery due to the last 4/5 months is exasperating.
If the Tories aren’t wiped out and have too loud a voice after the next GE it makes any chance of doing any good that bit more difficult.
The thought of the Tories getting away with 14 years of misery due to the last 4/5 months is exasperating.
Yes. Because the current Tory party doesn’t even offer up a sliver of hope. Not even a pretence of National fairness. They give a loud voice to racist MP’s and they are on tv every single day promoting policy that 100% makes tens of thousands of vulnerable peoples lives worse. It’s not hiding the way it did under Boris or May. It’s not a small fringe. That tail is now wagging the whole dog. The thought of there being 100 Tories left is abhorrent to me. It would galvanise them and they’d be so fecking noisy.
I’m not a big Starmer guy. But I think he’s capable, decent, and actually wants to do the right thing. I also believe that a successful first term of work, sees a daring manifesto for a second term. His policies and plan remain to the left of Blair’s.
The idea of not voting anti-Tory is just so feeble. Imagine staying home and seeing your local seat held by a Tory. It should be an obliteration. Mick Lynch called it right when he said people on the left need to grow up.
Nadine Dorries, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Suella Braverman, George Osbourne, Matt Hancock, Boris Johnson, Dominic Raab, Andrew Bridgen, Priti Patel, Lee Anderson, Liz Truss, Mark Francois, Andrea Jenkyns, John Redwood, David Cameron, Steve Baker, Therese Coffey, Michael Gove, Grant Shapps etc
What an absolute shit show. I’ll be absolutely amazed if Starmer assembles anything anywhere near as bad as this lot.
What an absolute shit show. I’ll be absolutely amazed if Starmer assembles anything anywhere near as bad as this lot.
Basically, all the ones who've had a lot of exposure.
Its because they have no policies to improve the country. Privatisation failed. They've got little left to sell. In truth, they've been living off soundbites and BS since 2008.
Will you stop bitching about it if he does it? (rhetorical question)
Btw, Pavlos Gluksburg is not the crown prince of Greece. We don't have that kingdom bullshit over there, so british media need to get up to speed.
Why do you think he's "moved the party closer to the Tories?"
You're forgetting the 2019 intake. Gullis etx
Amen.
People forget that Tory voters are being courted by Labour. Alas modern day leftists really don't care, they just want their echo chamber to get what they all agree on. It's why they suck at elections.
It's about compromise and getting as many people moving in a similar direction.
If you want a party to only cater to your beliefs then you're effectively saying you don't believe in collaboration or indeed a liberal democracy.
Do you know what would actually decimate the Tories? Proportional representation. But we already know that's not something this current Labour party is interested in. Starmer has far more of an opportunity to actually do something about the way politics in this country works but for some reason the onus is on individual voters to do something about it.
I'm sure you'll find some way to excuse his decisions whilst blaming lefties who don't want to vote for Tory lite though.
Why the hell am I inserting genocide? Fecking hell. This is the world we are living in now.
"Punish. Punish. PUNISH!"
"But what about what we're rewarding?"
"You child!"
Overton Window slides right.
Yeah. Makes sense.
"But what about what we're rewarding?"
"You child!"
Overton Window slides right.
Yeah. Makes sense.
Also, democratic politics does not work in that way. You can't bring a mass party to electoral victory on one kind of platform, and then just dramatically change tack once you're in office. Thousands of people are involved in carrying out policy and explaining it to voters around the country. They have to share a common sense of where things are heading and why and how, or that doesn't work.
It's quite telling that those who demand a Labour vote are having to resort to complete lies and simple myths with emotive rants.
No one is chasing a perfect party that represents all their beliefs. Most here voted Starmer over the more left candidate because he was a compromise candidate, except it turns out he wasn't he lied.
All that's happening is people have some red lines on how far right Labour can go before they'll lose a vote. Some of you here have no such line, some have the reverse and voted against Corbyn.
Personally climate change is too big of an issue for me so I'll be voting green. Getting rid of every Tory isn't half as important as signalling to the next government they have to chase green votes not Tories going forward.
No one is chasing a perfect party that represents all their beliefs. Most here voted Starmer over the more left candidate because he was a compromise candidate, except it turns out he wasn't he lied.
All that's happening is people have some red lines on how far right Labour can go before they'll lose a vote. Some of you here have no such line, some have the reverse and voted against Corbyn.
Personally climate change is too big of an issue for me so I'll be voting green. Getting rid of every Tory isn't half as important as signalling to the next government they have to chase green votes not Tories going forward.
The Tories have done it (HS2, "The Plan for Drivers", recruiting more NHS staff, NI freeze etc)
And look how that has turned out for them.
Excellent post. Mick Lynch was spot on as usual.
Fantastic post. Priority number one is getting them out.
And the idea that labour are no different to the torys is laughable teenager just getting into politics rhetoric.
Blaming people for not voting Labour because it will get the Tories out isn't the fault of the voter, it's the fault of Labour and the system really. Labour are crap and have disenfranchised so many people with their stances. They haven't proved to be anything than a less worse conservative really to many and I don't blame people for thinking that. If you're not part of certain communities (like the Muslim community) then maybe you just don't understand how badly Labour have damaged themselves in the past few months or how much some people in that community feel.
Nailed it.
All that is driven by the electorate too. Parties wouldn’t have these policies if it wasn’t what wins elections.
I think you will find you can, almost every government in my life time (except one*) have at some stage change tack, sometimes for convenience, because of pressures, internal /external to the government when they get in power, even the Tories with 85+ majority got caught out with such as Covid, war in Ukraine etc..
Starmer is being honest in as much as he will not promise anything until he's seen the books, at least not until the GE season starts for real.
*( that 1 was Maggie Thatcher's, love her or hate her, she did "what it said on the tin" )
I'm not talking about making some adjustments, or responding to unforeseen changes in circumstances. I'm talking about going into the election as one sort of thing, and then turning yourself into a completely different sort of thing as soon as you're in power. Not easily done, and generally doesn't end well.
Starmer just destroyed Sunak there.
I can't help but watch each week and still somehow be surprised at how shit Sunak is.
Also feel like Starmer was a bit too scripted, he could have ad libbed how ridiculous Sunak's responses were. So many opportunities to rinse Sunak for chatting utter shite.
If you pick through the desiccated bones strewn across Labour's policy graveyard you can still find enough consolation to vote for them I think.
They in any case have the crucial benefit of not being the Conservatives. It doesn't take a lot of positives beyond that.
This is a graphic but sadly accurate way of describing the exact situation we find ourselves in. How depressing.Still preferable to the guy stood next to your burnt down house, who’s carrying a Jerry can and a pack of matches, running on a promise to rebuild your house to the standard it was before it mysteriously got burnt down!
That's a very generous image, to assume he cares, or is prepared to acknowledge, that your house burnt down.
The Tories can’t copy a policy graveyard and claim it as their own
Sure. But I'd rather Bob the Builder turned up than some chap offering me commiserations and expecting me to be grateful for a wet wipe.
Like, I'm obviously being glib but concrete offerings and plans are undeniably scant.
Not sure how I left Gullis out, I can’t scroll a second through socials without seeing his face this week.
Because any offering is easily destroyed and straw manned into oblivion by the express, mail et al.
Ah yes, that old chestnut. Starmer is only pretending to be right wing so the papers don't smear him.
I'm sure he'll definitely pivot once in office
Pretending to be right wing? Good lord, I don't think he's right wing tbh.
But then again right wing nowadays to the left is anyone who isn't advocating for luxury automated communism.
Not really. In fact quite ironically thats a statement someone from the right would make, assuming those on the left simply want to seize the means of production and end enterprise. Even if you take someone deemed a 'radical leftist' like Corbyn, a large number of his policies were popular with the British public, especially when you detached Corbyn's name from them.
I mean you have Starmer trying to one up the Tories on immigration, you have his shadow chancellor suggesting a period of austerity would continue, his party are also following the Tory stance on initially refusing to back a ceasefire, supporting Israel's collective punishment of Palestinians and then demanding to remove the collective punishment accusations in parliamentary amendments. He's not exactly spiritually fist bumping Mussolini, but to be concerned that he's flirting with right wing sentiment doesn't automatically make you a proto-communist.
These magic policies that were popular that they voted for Corbyn in droves?
Oh wait, he had two bites of the cherry and the electorate handed the Tories a stinking majority. He was up against a DoA PM in May and utterly a spoilt jar of mayonnaise in Johnson and he still was battered.
In reality, having good ideas that are "popular with the British public" doesn't get you elected.
And getting elected IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS because it's the only way you can affect change.
I know most would prefer consistent, perma opposition so they can rage tweet and moan while the country is sold off for parts to some rich offshore cnut, but I'd prefer to at least attempt a change of administration so we can stop this rot.
Of course they are, Starmer is offering no targets, or is trying to erase anything that might be construed as a target for the Tories to either deride or to copy, at least at this stage. Once the firing pistol starts for the GE proper I would expect some selective major headline (costed) policy's to be revealed for term 1; a list of possibles for term 2 and a 'runners and riders' list for term 3..... of a future 3 term Labour government.
It's going to be a long haul, up hill most of the way, but effectively a 15 year plan set out in as much detail as he can, would be ideal for Starmer... just hope there is no more Covid hiding around the bend.
I'm responding to your point suggesting that those on the left hound Starmer for not being to the left of Trotsky. We can debate what made Corbyn unelectable, but the polling data suggests it wasn't his proposed policies. In fact going out on a limb, I'd wager Starmer would enjoy the same lead in the polls had he largely gone with the same manifesto Labour offered in 2019, voters ultimately found issue with Corbyn himself, the alleged affinity with the IRA/Hamas as well as his personality, not helped of course by the absolute hatchet job the media did on him. In short, this notion that those of us as traditionally Labour or even moderate voters are concerned with Starmer's alignment shift in recent months/years hardly puts us in the unwashed, student commie category. Its a lazy and nonsensical categorisation that dismisses some genuine concerns people have.