Well done Liverpool

To be fair, Benitez was being judged on the back of his achievements before which were pretty good. So he was hailed as a top manager and then he was judged against that. Whereas Kenny was expected to fall and fell about 5 times worse. So the expectations were different.

He was, of course, better than those who followed him. And he did sign some very good players but he also managed to screw things up big time after doing a lot of good work. Liverpool went from almost winning the league to coming 7th or something and he made some strange decisions along the way.
 
Vato1979 said:
That's correct, I did not know that. They also finished second in 2003 apparently. You still get my initial point though.
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No they finished 5th in 2003. I see what point you're trying to make but I disagree with it.
Liverpool finish 2nd in 2002 with Houllier, two years later Rafa takes charge with a majority of the players who finished 2nd still being at the club.

It's not like he took over relegation fodder or mid table, they were a top side who constantly beat United. In fact 7 times between 2000 and 2004. 1 time between 2004 and 2008 with Rafa at the helm.
 
lysglimt said:
They have 6-7 very good first-team players...but no backup for them
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Alot of this was caused by how bad their transfer activity was under Benitez(in his last days), Hodgson and especially Dalglish. Rodgers has cleared out alot of deadwood this summer and the funds, for the most part, were spent up last summer and the January previous.

Their incredibly short on players who can play in a front three and arguably some of the players he let go would have been worth keeping for one more year(bellamy and Kuyt for me but both wanted to leave) but he's got a good platform to build on now and he's brought in two good players in Allen and Sahin.. The likes of Siguorsson and Dempsey would have been good additions as well. There's not alot he can do if they don't want to join LFC at the moment.
 
Leroy The Red said:
No they finished 5th in 2003. I see what point you're trying to make but I disagree with it.
Liverpool finish 2nd in 2002 with Houllier, two years later Rafa takes charge with a majority of the players who finished 2nd still being at the club.

It's not like he took over relegation fodder or mid table, they were a top side who constantly beat United. In fact 7 times between 2000 and 2004. 1 time between 2004 and 2008 with Rafa at the helm.
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The dippers side Rafa inherited was obviously on a steep decline and Houllier's transfers in 2002 were mainly bad buys(Diouf, Diao, etc) which set them back. Players like Heskey, & Henchoz had also had a huge dip in form and two of their biggest players in Babbel and Owen had left or were on the verge of leaving. Benitez was left with Gerrard, Hamann, Carragher(who was a much better player under him) and Hypia who were good enough for a title winning side IMO. You could argue about the likes of Dudek I suppose and Cisse who arrived with much promise in 2004.

The team he inherited was not relegation fodder or mid table but they were not a top side and the days of them regularly beating us stopped in 2002 the day Dudek fecked up with Diego.

I think Houllier made mistakes after they won the plastic treble by selling Fowler and not using Lithmanen much even before the season they finished second because when Heskey went to shit, all they had was Owen and Gerrard as attacking threats. On top of regularly beating United, that side also had the look of a strong squad.

He also never strengthened their wingers which were never quite good enough for a title winning side(i.e. Smicer and Murphy). I reckon if we had not sold Jaap they would never have been in the top two slots in 01/02. He had the opportunity to sign Anelka after his half a season loan but passed it up and by the time he spent big money on Diouf, Diao, Le Tallec(the new Zidane) and Pongolle(another hugely hyped Frency youngster) the squad was full of mediocre players.
 
alastair said:
I was ridiculed for ages on here for defending Benitez. I said at the time that he was a better manager than anyone they would try and replace him with. There's no real point to this post, I merely want to highlight that I'm occasionally right about things.
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I hear ya!
 
I love the title of this thread. And the posts so far are even better! Thanks for some entertaining exchanges of views. :)
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
The dippers side Rafai inherited was obviously on a steep decline and Houllier's transfers in 2002 were mainly bad buys(Diouf, Diao, etc) which set them back. Players like Heskey, & Henchoz had also had a huge dip in form and two of their biggest players in Babbel and Owen had left or were on the verge of leaving. Benitez was left with Gerrard, Hamann, Carragher(who was a much better player under him) and Hypia who were good enough for a title winning side IMO.

The team he inherited were not relegation fodder or mid table but they were not a top side and the days of them regularly beating us stopped in 2002 the day Dudek fecked up with Diego.

I think Houllier made mistakes after they won the plastic treble by selling Fowler and not using Lithmanen much even before the season they finished second because when Heskey went to shit, all they had was Owen and Gerrard as attacking threats. He also never strengthened their wingers which were never quite good enough for a title winning side(i.e. Smicer and Murphy). I reckon if we had not sold Jaap they would never have been in the top two slots in 01/02. He had the opportunity to sign Anelka after his half a season loan but passed it up and by the time he spent big money on Diouf, Diao, Le Tallec(the new Zidane) and Pongolle(another hugely hyped Frency youngster) the squad was full of mediocre players.
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It's all very well picking apart Houlliers transfers around that time but when Rafa arrived were his any better?
Fair enough Diouf, Diao, Le Tallec and Cheyrou were awful but let's look at Rafa's.
Morientes, Josemi, Pellegrino, Kromkamp, Gonzalez, and a host of other terrible Spanish youngsters, as well as bringing back a clearly rubbish and overweight Fowler.
As for Markus Babbel, he only played in 00/01 season before his illness, he barely featured the following year.
As for what he was left with, you missed out the likes of Kewell and Riise. Liverpool still finished lower and with less points under Rafa in 2005 than they did under Houllier in 2004, despite spending about 30 million.

And Liverpool beat us twice shortly after the whole Dudek/Forlan business. Worthington Cup Final and a league game in 2004, Murphy scored, Murphy who Rafa Benitez sold to Charlton for nothing.
 
alastair said:
I was ridiculed for ages on here for defending Benitez. I said at the time that he was a better manager than anyone they would try and replace him with. There's no real point to this post, I merely want to highlight that I'm occasionally right about things.
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I agree but people will still tell you that the state of Liverpool at the moment is Benitez's fault.
 
Relegation prospects.
 
Leroy The Red said:
It's all very well picking apart Houlliers transfers around that time but when Rafa arrived were his any better?
Fair enough Diouf, Diao, Le Tallec and Cheyrou were awful but let's look at Rafa's.
Morientes, Josemi, Pellegrino, Kromkamp, Gonzalez, and a host of other terrible Spanish youngsters, as well as bringing back a clearly rubbish and overweight Fowler.
As for Markus Babbel, he only played in 00/01 season before his illness, he barely featured the following year.
As for what he was left with, you missed out the likes of Kewell and Riise. Liverpool still finished lower and with less points under Rafa in 2005 than they did under Houllier in 2004, despite spending about 30 million.

And Liverpool beat us twice shortly after the whole Dudek/Forlan business. Worthington Cup Final and a league game in 2004, Murphy scored, Murphy who Rafa Benitez sold to Charlton for nothing.
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I don't think Rafa's transfers were any better than Houllier's tbh. They both had hits and misses. The point I was making was that Rafa did not inherit a top side IMO because of Houllier's spending in 2002 and 2003. If he had inherited the plastic treble side or the team which came second prior to the awful run of transfers, then it would be different. As for Kewell and Riise, well I would put Kewell in the bad buy bracket and Riise was decent but nothing special.

You are probably right on Babbel but I trace the decline of the plastic treble side to him not becoming a regular and the sale of Fowler and none use of Lithmanen. Babbel was a top right back and the squad they had in 2001 and that which won those 3 cups and then beat Bayern looked like a potentially title winning side. What Houllier did after that gradually weakened them bit by bit IMO but it is the 2002 and 2003 transfers which were the killer.

Houllier had five successive wins over Fergie prior to the Dudek game. I remember the Worthington cup game and the one nil at Olf Trafford but we beat them at Anfield twice and stuffed them 4-0 at Old Trafford so were 3 out of 4 against them in the league. It ended his run of success over Fergie IMO and also co-incided with their decline as a team.
 
Rafa's transfers were better than Houllier's. And Leroy is getting it wrong by continually picking out the duff signings. Managers get judged by the number of successful signings they make and Rafa had his fair share.

What Rafa did well was building a core of top class players. He built a central line of Reina, Carragher, Hyypia/Agger, Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard, Torres and made sure there was strong backups for them. That's a nucleus that is much stronger than anything Houllier assembled.
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
I don't think Rafa's transfers were any better than Houllier's tbh. They both had hits and misses. The point I was making was that Rafa did not inherit a top side IMO because of Houllier's spending in 2002 and 2003. If he had inherited the plastic treble side or the team which came second prior to the awful run of transfers, then it would be different. As for Kewell and Riise, well I would put Kewell in the bad buy bracket and Riise was decent but nothing special.

You are probably right on Babbel but I trace the decline of the plastic treble side to him not becoming a regular and the sale of Fowler and none use of Lithmanen. Babbel was a top right back and the squad they had in 2001 and that which won those 3 cups and then beat Bayern looked like a potentially title winning side. What Houllier did after that gradually weakened them bit by bit IMO but it is the 2002 and 2003 transfers which were the killer.

Houllier had five successive wins over Fergie prior to the Dudek game. I remember the Worthington cup game and the one nil at Olf Trafford but we beat them at Anfield twice and stuffed them 4-0 at Old Trafford so were 3 out of 4 against them in the league. It ended his run of success over Fergie IMO and also co-incided with their decline as a team.
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Maybe, but Dudek(despite his errors) Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Hamann, Kewell was a pretty good starting point. I know Kewell ended up being a disappointment but I think a lot of that was down to man management. He was ridiculously good at Leeds. He also had decent squad players in Finnan, Smicer, Baros, Cisse, Murphy. His problem was his obsession with replacing squad players year after year instead of investing in a top player. He must've brought in about 20 players in his first two seasons yet only Alonso was a stand out player. It's all very well clearing out the shit Houllier bought but then to replace them with shit.....odd. You won't catch Fergie buying silly players like Zenden, Pennant and Kromkamp every season.
 
I don't get the comparisons to Ferguson - yes, he made mistakes Ferguson doesn't tend to make. Everyone knows this. You can be a good manager without being Ferguson.
 
Here's Rafa's transfer dealings for anyone interested, I've bolded the players that were bought and then sold on again during his time there.

2004

IN

Djibril Cisse, Josemi, Antonio Nunez, Luis Garcia, Xabi Alonso

OUT

Markus Babbel, Danny Murphy, Michael Owen

2005

IN

Mauricino Pellegino, Fernando Morientes, Scott Carson, Antonio Barragan, Mark Gonzalez, Jose Reina, Bolo Zenden, Momo Sissoko, Peter Crouch, Godwin Antwi, Jack Hobbs

OUT

Stephan Henchoz, Igor Biscan, Vladimir Smicer, El Hadj Diouf, Mauricio Pellegino, Jon Otsemobor, Gergory Vignal, Antonio Nunez, Ritchie Partridge, Milan Baros, Paul Harrison, Mark Smyth

2006

IN

Paul Anderson, Jan Kromkamp, Robbie Fowler, David Martin, Daniel Agger, Craig Bellamy, Gabriel Paletta, Fabio Aurelio, Jermaine Pennant, Dirky Kuyt, Nabil El Zhar

OUT

Josemi, John Welsh, Paul Willis, Fernando Morientes, Conal Platt, Zak Whitbread, Bruno Cheyrou, Calum Woods, David Raven, Ramon Calliste, Dietmar Hamann, Carl Medjani, Robbie Foy, Antonio Barragan, Djimi Traore, Neil Mellor, Jan Kromkamp, Chris Kirkland

2007

IN

Emiliano Insua, Krisztian Nemeth, Charles Itandje, Alvaro Arbeloa, Francisco Duran, Javier Mascherano, Andrei Voronin, Fernando Torres, Yossi Benyoun, Ryan Babel, Damien Plessis

OUT

Darren Potter, Stephen Warnock, Salif Diao, Florent Sinama-Pongolle, Daniel O'Donell, Luis Garcia, Bolo Zenden, Djibril Cisse, Craig Bellamy, Mark Gonzalez, Jerzy Dudek, Robbie Fowler, Gabriel Paletta

2008

IN

Martin Skrtel, Phillip Degen, Andrea Dossena, Diego Cavalieri, David N'Gog, Robbie Keane, Vitor Flora, Albert Riera

OUT

Momo Sissoko, Anthony Le Tallec, Harry Kewell, Peter Crouch, Danny Guthrie, Scott Carson, John Arne Risse, Steve Finnan, Robbie Keane
 
alastair said:
I don't get the comparisons to Ferguson - yes, he made mistakes Ferguson doesn't tend to make. Everyone knows this. You can be a good manager without being Ferguson.
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I was just about to say "shouldn't you be in an Arsenal related thread trying to convince yourself Arsenal will finish above United" then realised you're not petestorey. Is there any chance you do something similar so I can say it anyway?
 
ste_michaels said:
Get rid of carroll and replace him with no one!
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They bought Samed Yesil. Germany's biggest striker prospect who scored 6 goals in the last U17 WC and 19 goals in 21 games altogether for the German U17 national team. Leverkusen fans are fuming.
 
Both Houllier and Benitez went through a similar path. They rebuild the team, did well, got to the stage where you think they need to make one more step in order to challenge, and dropped a few transfer bollocks. By the time they left, a lot of their good work was undone and the squad needed a huge overhaul again.
 
Amir said:
Both Houllier and Benitez went through a similar path. They rebuild the team, did well, got to the stage where you think they need to make one more step in order to challenge, and dropped a few transfer bollocks. By the time they left, a lot of their good work was undone and the squad needed a huge overhaul again.
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I agree with this. Houllier was the one who really missed the boat though as he did not have to deal with huge spending Chelsea being a real force under Mourinho. If he had spent well in 02 and 03, they could have done much better than one proper title challenge that they were always second favourite in(01/02). I think both United and Chelsea at different times were at their strongest when Rafa was at LFC as well.
 
Carrol had a great game today I thought. Which makes things even better. Must be something in the water at the training ground. Shite perhaps.
 
Rafa was the guy who pulled them out of a regular champions league place with his managerial ineptitude

KKK was the guy who ensured they stayed there
 
Vato1979 said:
How can you even say that knowing he brought in players like Alonso, Torres, Mascherano, Arbeloa, Pepe Reina, Skrtel, Agger to name a few.

Agreed he's bought some dreadful players too but which manager doesn't? Let's take Morientes for example. Benitez gets slated for him being a flop in England which is a bit of a joke really. I know for certain most teams would have creamed themselves if they would have signed him after his impressive passage at Monaco. That is the beauty of hindsight.

If you can't see the difference in class they had back then compared to what they have now... Their team is a shambles and I don't see them ending in the top 7 this season. Benitez isn't as bad a coach as he is made out to be here. It's just because of his little written rant against Ferguson that most can't stomach him, that's all.
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No, no. He made plenty of dreadful signings. He made some good ones. Skrtel has only come good since his departure. Before that, he got in when Agger was injured.

He bought Alonso, and sold him, and replaced him with Aquilani. Arbeloa was never a good signing. He never managed to play thirty league games in a season, and was then bumped on for £5m. Christ knows why Madrid took him on. Although he's never really established himself there either.

Benitez brought something of a Spanish revolution to the club, which came to a head when they were second, and is partly responsible for their demise.

Now, to the list of players he signed. Spoilered for ridiculous length:

Fernando Torres
Robbie Keane
Ryan Babel
Xabi Alonso
Dirk Kuyt
Albert Riera
Andrea Dossena
Peter Crouch
Lucas Leiva
Jermaine Pennant
Martin Skrtel
Craig Bellamy
Luis Garcia
Jose Reina
Dan Agger
Mohammed Sissoko
Fernando Morientes
Yossi Benayoun
Diego Cavalieri
Alvaro Arbeloa
Sebastian Leto
Jose Miguel Gonzalez
Gabriel Paletta
Mark Gonzalez
David Ngog
Scott Carson
Mikel San Jose
David Martin
Antonio Barragan
Besian Idrizaj
Jack Hobbs
Alex Cooper
Alexander Kacaniklic
Krisztian Nemeth
Andras Simon
Victor Palsson
Gary Mackay Steven
Vitor Flora
Andriy Voronin
Nikolay Mihaylov
Emmanuel Mendy
Marvin Pourie
Dani Pacheco
Nikola Saric
Lauri Dalla Valle
Gerardo Bruna
Hakan Duyan
Damien Plessis
Peter Gulacsi
Charles Itandje
Philipp Degen
Vincent Lucas
Ryan Crowther
Mihail Alexandrov
Robbie Fowler
Ryan Wilkie
Javier Mascherano
Miki Roque
Nabir El Zhar
Mark Smyth
Jay Smith
Stephen Darby
Craig Lindfield
Adam Hammill
Danny Guthrie
Paul Anderson
Lee Peltier
Fabio Aurelio
Jan Kromkamp
Boudewijn Zenden
Mauricio Pellegrino
Godwin Antwi
Robbie Threlfall
Ryan Flynn
Calum Woods
Paul Willis
Danny O'Donnell
Ramon Calliste
Steve Irwin
Martin Kelly
Ronald Huth
Jordy Brouwer
Francisco Manuel Duran
Emiliano Insua
Ray Putterill
Martin Hansen
Jay Spearing
Dave Roberts
David Mannix
Antonio Nunez

Red = Good signing
Bold = Poor signing
Black = Either neither here nor there, or have no idea how they've got on, or whether or not they've taken up a trade since

Christ almighty, about 80% of those players I've never even heard of, but they were signed nonetheless, and had wages spent on them, ultimately putting them in the financial position they're currently in.
 
It's amazing seeing how much they've paid for such shite players when you see people like Dembele and Berbatov going for much cheaper. Not that they could attract those kind of players any more.
 
Luis Garcia, Agger, Crouch, Kuyt and Benayoun were clearly all good signings. He's just bought a lot of mediocrity, and made a lot of short-term signings. And of course all of those irrelevant inexpensive youth signings make it seem worse than it is. I'd say only Keane, Dossena and Babel were genuine flops from this first group, Morientes, Riera, Sissoko and a couple of others were decent players who did a job and didn't cost them much.

Fernando Torres
Robbie Keane
Ryan Babel
Xabi Alonso
Dirk Kuyt
Andrea Dossena
Albert Riera
Peter Crouch
Lucas Leiva
Jermaine Pennant
Martin Skrtel
Craig Bellamy
Luis Garcia
Jose Reina
Dan Agger
Mohammed Sissoko
Fernando Morientes
Yossi Benayoun
Alvaro Arbeloa
Javier Mascherano
Fabio Aurelio

The problem was him signing players that were simply a level below where Liverpool were at, or were notoriously injury-prone, or were just pointlessly short-term. And his inability to spot a decent young player.

Sebastian Leto
Gabriel Paletta
Mark Gonzalez
David Ngog
Scott Carson
Andriy Voronin
Charles Itandje
Philipp Degen
Robbie Fowler
Jan Kromkamp
Boudewijn Zenden
Mauricio Pellegrino
 
Brwned said:
Luis Garcia, Agger, Crouch, Kuyt and Benayoun were clearly all good signings. He's just bought a lot of mediocrity, and made a lot of short-term signings. And of course all of those irrelevant inexpensive youth signings make it seem worse than it is. I'd say only Keane, Dossena and Babel were genuine flops from this first group, Morientes, Riera, Sissoko and a couple of others were decent players who did a job and didn't cost them much.
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Garcia's questionable. Decent in spells, but he's a forward, who never managed to even get ten goals a season. Acceptable if the rest of your play is like Suarez's, which is wasn't.

Agger, as I said, has proved to be a good signing since Benitez's departure. He looked like a good signing before he was done by injuries, and still hasn't played 30 games in a season, in spite of Carragher's increasing age and declining ability.

Crouch, possibly. Sold at a profit after a horrific start, got into the England team.

No chance is Kuyt going down as a good signing. I remember when he was signed and I was really disappointed, and a tad concerned. I'd heard about this prolific goalscorer who'd done to the Eredivisie what RVN did. So prolific he got bumped out wide. Liverpool's Park. Lacking in technical ability, with a tireless workrate which always proved invaluable on the big games.

Benayoun, possibly. But my memory of him was him being accomodated all over because of his versatility and never really holding down any one position for his own.

As I've just said to a newb, he made so many signings (ignoring the youth ones from my list), who were absolute flops. They just weren't branded as such because they didn't pay much for them, but they bought that many, the total started to really add up. Not forgetting their wages too.
 
Luis Garcia was an inside forward who played the vast majority of his games out wide, and he had a record of about 1 in 4. I'd say that's pretty decent. He was useful in Europe too. Agger has been a good signing from the beginning, it was always evident he's a good player. Kuyt didn't live up to expectations but it's not like he was brought in for a huge fee. 20 league goals/assists combined in 08/09 and 10/11, averaged 15 goals a season from a wide position - good signing in my view. Benayoun was their more attacking version of Park and did well.

He wasn't great in the transfer market at all, I'm just saying there were a few decent signings. Though most of them were just decent.
 
davisjw said:
Carrol had a great game today I thought. Which makes things even better. Must be something in the water at the training ground. Shite perhaps.
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Long-term, Carroll having a good season on loan is in their interests as they will get a better price when it comes to selling him. He clearly does not fit with what Rodgers wants from his forwards and a loan was about the best thing they could get. If he has a good season, scores between 15-20 goals and unsettles defences with his physicality, they might be able to get at best half of what they paid for him back. Allardyce is likely to use a system and style of play that would get the best out of him as well.

Looking through the Dippers squad now, the back four and central midfield looks decent and better than last season. There's depth in the back four and good central midfield options. Even someone like Jordan Henderson is a decent option there as back up rather than as a right winger like Dalglish used him. I could even see them being able to play Gerrard wide right with Lucas, Allen and Sahin as the midfield three. Lucas being out for three months is a blow but Sahin and Allen fill the void much better than Adam and Spearing did.

The forward line is very thin and an injury to Suarez would put them in trouble but they have the numbers if everyone stays fit with Suarez, Borini, Sterling, Cole, the Moroccan whose name escapes me and Downing. If that can keep them ticking over until January when I'd expect them to add a striker at the least then his summer activity was not bad. Like I said, there is not alot he can do if the likes of Dempsey and Sigorsson don't fancy LFC at the moment. Obviously goals could be a problem as only Suarez and Gerrard look like goal threats and Suarez is anything but clinical.

It's a risk but he's done the right thing in slowly clearing out Adam, Carroll, Spearing, and Maxi. Personally, I'd have kept Kuyt and Bellamy for one more season but both wanted to leave for varying reasons and both are coming to the end of their careers. Last season, LFC were littered with mediocre and average players who had cost big money. This season they have the nucleus of a good side but are extremely thin upfront. The latter is progress on Dalgish's spending.
 
Brwned said:
Luis Garcia was an inside forward who played the vast majority of his games out wide, and he had a record of about 1 in 4. I'd say that's pretty decent. He was useful in Europe too. Agger has been a good signing from the beginning, it was always evident he's a good player. Kuyt didn't live up to expectations but it's not like he was brought in for a huge fee. 20 league goals/assists combined in 08/09 and 10/11, averaged 15 goals a season from a wide position - good signing in my view. Benayoun was their more attacking version of Park and did well.

He wasn't great in the transfer market at all, I'm just saying there were a few decent signings. Though most of them were just decent.
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Agger had the potential to be a good signing, but didn't get enough games inder Benitez to be considered so for me. For Hargreaves' great season, we can't say he was a great signing. Although he's certainly fulfilling that potential now.

Now, this I don't like. "He wasn't brought in for a huge fee". That shouldn't dictate how good a player was for a team. I fully expected Kuyt to be a fantastic signing for them, a proper goalscorer that they'd lacked. They had Fowler, then Owen, then Torres, but never really that great partner. He clearly had goalscoring ability in Holland, where did it go?

Sort of the opposite to Berbatov. He was never a £30m player, never. Just because we paid that it didn't mean he should become a £30m player. On the whole, he was good for us. Golden boot one year remember. The problem is, he didn't live up to the unrealistic expectations our fans placed on him when they saw the record fee. His goalscoring record was actually better at United than at Spurs, he just didn't quite fit in with the United style of hard work. He certainly had the skill, just not on a consistent enough basis. Someone like Veron however, was a poor signing. Big money, lots of ability, didn't really happen.
 
You're judging how well the players performed (in relation to your own expectations) which is a different matter altogether. I'm just talking about whether they were successful signings, so of course you'll have to take the fee into account then. Park for £4m was a great deal, Park for £14m...not really worth it. Though it seems that Kuyt cost close to £10m which was more than I thought, a bit more would've got you a Berbatov or Saha at that time. Still a good signing. It does make you wonder how bad the Eredivisie was at that point if Kuyt was the best player in the league.

I think both Veron and Berbatov did pretty well but just didn't fit in.
 
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