We'd win the League every year, if only we had

manxmania

Guest
Wenger as our Manager.

Why is it that a small club like Arsenal can seriously challenge us for honours?

We spent 48 million pounds on just 2 players - Veron and RVN - last summer. That is roughly twice the amount that Arsenal could afford for all their summer signings. Financially, we are the Goliath, while Arsenal struggle even to reach "David" status.

The financial inequality between our two clubs is stark. Financially, this is like Microsoft taking on a couple of undercapitalised software engineers in Mexico.

So why is it that Arsenal are outperforming us in the League this year? And why do they have a first team squad that is the equal (or better, if the truth be known) of ours, even though Wenger probably has had one-half our budget over the last 5 years? Lets face it: Henry, Bergkamp, Vieira, Pires, Ljungberg, Campbell, Cole and Seamen are every bit the equal of our RVN, Ole, Keane, Becks, Giggs, Silvestre, Blanc and Barthez. The League table proves it.

If Arsenal win the League this year it will prove one thing: Wenger, with less, can do more than our SAF. And that's because Wenger is a class above our Sir Alex as a manager.
 
B]When is he going to get banned? [/B]

Thank you for a most reasoned response. Wenger is unlikely to be banned while he remains one of the most respected figures in world football. I see that Sven Goran-Eriksonn is the latest football luminary to try to exploit Wenger's magic.
 
Wow, you actually stayed around for longer than your usual solitary windup post.

Arsenal were world class against Ipswich weren't they, or did they actually make hard work of it? And did Arsene the supreme tactically astute manager manage to make the QF's of the CL?
 
Originally posted by Wibble:
<strong>Dipper or Gonner? That is the question.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not really. Ban this gooner now, or after we beat them on May 8th is a better question.
Click to expand...
 
Neil Thomson buddy <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> let manxmanai talk or i call it mumble what ever he want to. his girlfriend just left him, so he kind of upset now.that why he talk nonsence. manxmani you are in serious need of help....any body know good psychiatrist pls pm manxmania


<img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> i dun know any good one <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />
 
Arsenal were world class against Ipswich weren't they, or did they actually make hard work of it?

Of course they weren't world class against Ipswich. As they weren't world class in many of their victories in 1997/98. As ever, it's the result that counts.

Why are Arsenal outperforming us so clearly this season when patiently they are financial minnows compared to us? Could it have anything to do with Wenger's talents as a manager?
 
Originally posted by manxmania:
<strong>Arsenal were world class against Ipswich weren't they, or did they actually make hard work of it?

Of course they weren't world class against Ipswich. As they weren't world class in many of their victories in 1997/98. As ever, it's the result that counts.

Why are Arsenal outperforming us so clearly this season when patiently they are financial minnows compared to us? Could it have anything to do with Wenger's talents as a manager?</strong><hr></blockquote>
We're in the CL semi's - you're not, so you're hardly outperforming us. I hope you're not counting your chickens before they've hatched, because if you play like that against West Ham you'll draw or lose, and after we beat you at Old Trafford you'll end up second. Again.
Click to expand...
 
Not really. Ban this gooner now, or after we beat them on May 8th is a better question

Sorry, but I can't agree with your call for banning, as I fervently believe in freedom of speech.

If someone is using obscene language that might offend children, or is being unnecessarily abusive towards other posters, then I agree with you they should be banned.

I hope that the moderators also take that approach.
 
Originally posted by manxmania:
<strong>Not really. Ban this gooner now, or after we beat them on May 8th is a better question

Sorry, but I can't agree with your call for banning, as I fervently believe in freedom of speech.

If someone is using obscene language that might offend children, or is being unnecessarily abusive towards other posters, then I agree with you they should be banned.

I hope that the moderators also take that approach.</strong><hr></blockquote>
True, but pretending to be a United fan when there is no need to - we have other Gooners on this site, and offering nothing positive to the forum are my arguments for you being banned. Obviously you haven't been yet, but I think this must be a case of keeping you around to ridicule later.
Click to expand...
 
Your lack of football knowledge disturbs me!!

If football was all about finance and whoever spends the most wins the trophies, it would be a pretty crap sport don't you think?

Calling Alex Ferguson's managerial qualities into question is laughable. Tell me, what have the Gooners won in the last 3 years compared to United? Sweet *fa* that's what! And they may yet end up empty handed this season....

Anyway, your argument is totally flawed and indicates you don't have a fecking clue what you're talking about!

Bottom line - money does not guarantee success and Fergie is the greatest manager of our time: FACT!
 
Originally posted by manxmania:
<strong>If Arsenal win the League this year it will prove one thing: Wenger, with less, can do more than our SAF. And that's because Wenger is a class above our Sir Alex as a manager.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just like in the last three seasons? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
Click to expand...
 
but I think this must be a case of keeping you around to ridicule later

I hate to prick your balloon, but I don't think that that will be this year. This is Arsene's year: he has it all sown up. Care to bet against it?
 
Fkn Bosnich isn't it?

We could go through a long explaination but would he understand? I doubt it!

<img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" /> <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" /> <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />
 
B]Calling Alex Ferguson's managerial qualities into question is laughable. Tell me, what have the Gooners won in the last 3 years compared to United? Sweet *fa* that's what! And they may yet end up empty handed this season....[/B]

Who has had the most money to spend in the last 3 years, and by what margin? Answer that question, then tell me that our SAF is indeed the greatest manager of all time.

If Wenger wins the Double 2 years in the last 5, with a budget that is less than one-half of Fergie's, then please tell me how highly you'd rate Wenger as a manager. I'd say he's brilliant, because he's beaten crippling financial odds 2 out of 5 times. It takes pretty extraordinary talent as a manager to do that.

Not that I'm a Gunner's fan, mind you.
 
Maybe manxmania would like to post a list of what Arsenal have won during Wenger's tenure and then follow that up with what Manchester United have won in the same period. I wonder how the comparison will look? And how that might refelct on each manager. Make it even more interesting and show the net and gross spending of each club during that period. <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />
 
Originally posted by manxmania:
<strong>but I think this must be a case of keeping you around to ridicule later

I hate to prick your balloon, but I don't think that that will be this year. This is Arsene's year: he has it all sown up. Care to bet against it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I bet you don't win the CL this year, and I'd say our odds must be astronomically better than yours to do so. I'd put us odds on to beat you at Old Trafford too. There's a good chance of West Ham getting the draw that will scupper your title hopes, especially if you play as poorly as you did against relegated Ipswich.
Click to expand...
 
Make it even more interesting and show the net and gross spending of each club during that period.

Christ only knows how long I'll have to continue battling against the ignorance of my fellow Manchurians.

The net and gross spending of each club is relevant here. We're talking about how much each club has spent on players. Net and gross spending, from an accountant's viewpoint, takes many other factors into account.

We spent 28 million pounds on Veron and 20 million pounds on RVN last year. That's 48 million pounds altogether on just 2 players. How much did Arsenal spend on transfers last summer?

Sorry to get you into a debate about facts. I know it's not your kind of thing.
 
Originally posted by manxmania:
<strong>Sorry to get you into a debate about facts. I know it's not your kind of thing.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Are you daft? Net and gross spending on players! :rolleyes:

ie. During Wenger's tenure at Arsenal, how much has he spent on new players, and then how much is it when you take off the amount gained from players sold! Then do the same for United!

You are not debating facts as you don't have the facts. Show what the facts are and maybe we can then have a debate - that miht make a change to you just spouting your unfounded opinions!
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, right. I fully agree. :rolleyes:

Laughable, really! <img src="graemlins/annoyed.gif" border="0" alt="[Annoyed]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

I truly wonder when can you stop all your pretence, manxmania. It's really getting on my nerves. It's perfectly alright to just admit that you are a Gunner and have a good argument with us for your information.
 
You are not debating facts as you don't have the facts. Show what the facts are and maybe we can then have a debate - that miht make a change to you just spouting your unfounded opinions!

Here are a few facts about Wenger, but you probably won't like them.

Anelka: Bought 500,000 pounds; sold 23 million pounds - a mere 460% profit in a little more than 2 years. Most business people would consider that a "tidy" turnover. In fact, this single deal would set most business people up for life.

Overmars: Bought 7 million; sold 23 million, 3 years later. That's a mere 330% profit in the space of 3 years.

Let's toss in Petit: Bought 2.5 million; sold 5 million 3 years later. A mere 100% profit after 3 years. Yes, I know this is gross underperformance by Wenger's standards, but it's phenomenal performance by normal business standards.

Wenger's also had a few duds over the last couple of years. Were they enough to outweigh the above? Of course not.

Wenger's a genius. We need to get him to OT as soon as possible, to replace the over-imbibing one.
 
Anelka: Bought 500,000 pounds; sold 23 million pounds - a mere 460% profit in a little more than 2 years. Most business people would consider that a "tidy" turnover. In fact, this single deal would set most business people up for life.

Ummm...let's make that 4,600% profit on Anelka. Pretty tasty by anyone's standards, except if you're working for Real Madrid!
 
So Wenger has found a couple of good, unknown players and sold them at a huge profit. How much do you think "we'd" (not that you're one of us) get for Beckham or Giggs or Scholes or Butt eh?? These are homegrown lads that fergie has nurtured into world class players and if they were sold they would make Anelka's transfer fees look like chicken feed!

However, United are not a selling club like the Gooners. Maybe if your team stopped selling their best players you might actually have won something since 1998 <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />

And enough of the *bs* please, just admit you're not a united fan and get on with it. It's not helping your already low credibility rating!
 
So, since Wenger joined Arsenal in September 1996, he has made the following deals where the price was known:

1996 Nov David Hillier £250,000
1997 Jan Andy Linighan £110,000
1997 Jan Paul Read £35,000
1997 Feb John Hartson £3.2m
1997 Mar Steve Morrow £500,000
1997 May Matthew Rose £500,000
1997 Jul Paul Merson £4.5m
1997 Jul Lee Harper £125,000
1997 Sep Paul Shaw £250,000
1997 Oct Ian Selley £500,000
1998 Jun Matthew Wicks £100,000
1998 Jul Richard Hughes £20,000
1998 Jul Ian Wright £750,000
1998 Aug Isaiah Rankin £1.3m
1998 Nov Willie Huck £50,000
1999 Mar Jamie Day £20,000
1999 Jun Kaba Diawara £2m
1999 Jul Jason Crowe £750,000
1999 Aug Nicolas Anelka £22.9m
1999 Aug David Livermore £30,000 Dec
1999 Dec Omar Riza £20,000
1999 Dec Leon Britton £400,000
2000 Mar Stephen Hughes £500,000 June
2000 Jun Nigel Winterburn £250,000
2000 Jul Marc Overmars £20m
2000 Jul Emmanuel Petit £10m
2000 Jul Jay Bothroyd £1m
2000 Aug Brian McGovern £50,000
2000 Sep Tommy Black £250,000
2000 Sep Julian Gray £250,000
2000 Nov Rhys Weston £300,000
2000 Dec Paolo Vernazza £350,000
2001 Feb James Harper £400,000
2001 Jul Stefan Malz £580,000
2001 Jul Guy Demel £194,000

Total Gain : £72,434,000

1996 Feb Nicolas Anelka £500,000
1996 May Matthew Upson £1,000,000
1996 Jun Alex Manninger £500,000
1996 Jun Emmanuel Petit £3.5m
1996 Jun Gilles Grimandi £1.5m
1996 Jun Luis Boa Morte £1.75m
1996 Jun Alberto Mendez £250,000
1996 Jun Marc Overmars £5m
1997 Aug Christopher Wreh £300,000
1998 Jun David Grondin £500,000
1998 Aug Nelson Vivas £1.6m
1998 Sep Fredrik Ljungberg £3m
1999 Jan Nwankwo Kanu £4.5m
1999 Jan Kaba Diawara £2.5m
1999 Jan Jermaine Pennant £2m May
1999 Jan Oleg Luzhny £1.8m
1999 Jun Silvinho £4m
1999 Jun Stefan Malz £610,000
1999 Aug Thierry Henry £10m
2000 May Lauren £7.2m
2000 Jul Robert Pires £6m
2000 Aug Sylvain Wiltord £13m
2000 Sep Igors Stepanovs £1m
2001 Jan Edu £6m
2001 Jul Francis Jeffers £10m
2001 Jul Gio van Bronckhorst £8.5m
2001 Jul Richard Wright £6m
2001 Jul Junichi Inamoto £4m
2001 Sep Stathis Taylaridis £600,000

Total Spend : £107,110,000

Overall Spend : £34,676,000

Durning the same period, SAF did this:

1996 Aug Lee Sharpe £4.5m
1997 Aug Simon Davies £150,000
1997 Aug Colin Murdock £100,000
1997 Aug Jon Macken £250,000
1997 Aug Michael Appleton £500,000
1997 Aug Pat McGibbon £250,000
1997 Dec Karel Poborsky £3m
1998 Jan John O'Kane £250,000
1997 Jan Andrew Duncan £20,000
1998 Jun Grant Brebner £300,000
1998 Jun Ben Thornley £175,000
1998 Jul Gary Pallister £2.5m
1998 Nov Chris Casper £300,000
1999 Mar Phil Mulryne £500,000
1999 Mar Terry Cooke £600,000
1999 Dec Erik Nevland £250,000
2000 Jun John Curtis £1.5m
2000 Jul Danny Higginbotham £2m
2000 Jul Massimo Taibi £2.5m
2000 Nov Alex Notman £250,000
2000 Dec Henning Berg £1.75m
2000 Dev David Healy £1.5m
2001 Jul Jonathan Greening £2m
2001 Jul Mark Wilson £1.5m
2001 Aug Jaap Stam £15.25m
2001 Dec Andy Cole £8m

Total Gain : £46,395,000

1996 Jul Ronny Johnsen £1.2m
1996 Jul Ole Gunnar Solskjaer £1.5m
1996 Jul Karel Poborksy £3.5m
1996 Jul Jordi Cruyff £1.4m
1997 Jun Teddy Sheringham £3.5m
1997 Aug Henning Berg £5m
1998 Mar Jonathan Greening £1m
1998 Jul Jaap Stam £10.75m
1998 Jul Jesper Blomqvist £4.4m
1998 Aug Dwight Yorke £12.6m
1999 Feb Bojan Djordic £1m
1999 Aug Quinton Fortune £1.5m
1999 Aug Massimo Taibi £4.5m
1999 Sep Mickael Silvestre £4m
2000 May Fabien Barthez £7.8m
2000 May James Jowsey £200,000
2001 Mar Andy Goram £100,000
2001 Jul R Van Nistelrooy £19m
2001 Jul Juan S Veron £28.1m
2001 Jul Roy Carroll £2.5m
2002 Jan Diego Forlan £7.5m

Total Spend : £121,050,000

Overall Spend : £74,655,000

So, in the last 6 years, in real terms they have spent:

SAF: £74,655,000 - £12,442,500 / Year
Wenger: £34,676,000 - £5,779,334 / Year
Difference: £39,979,000 - £6,663,166 / Year

In that time, they have won:

SAF: 4 Premiership Titles, 1 FA Cup, 1 European Cup, 1 Intercontinental Cup

Wenger: 1 Premiership Title, 1 FA Cup

Spending per cup

SAF: £10,665,000 / Cup
Wenger: £17,338,000 / Cup

Take from that what you wish! :D

NB: Vieira Joined Arsenal a short time before Wenger, so doesn't appear on the list!
 
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
nice one Weaste! You a lawyer or something?
 
Arsene may have done very well when it comes to spending money-making profits, but a manager's sucess is only ever confirmed by trophies. SAF is miles out in front.

Also two of Arsenals key players when they have won anything have been Viera and Bergkamp, both not signed by Wenger.

Wenger is good, but at the moment he is not shade on SAF.
 
<a href="http://forum.redcafe.net/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=003962" target="_blank">Hey manx, visit this thread and answer the fecking questions. If you answer them honestly, we'll all welcome you as a gooner and engage in footy banter with you just like we do with FresnoBob and Arsenal. If you insist on continuing your pretence of being a RED, then I fear for your prolonged membership in here.</a> <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />
 
serious question for manxmania, pls answer honestly as u r clearly an arsefan:

a) r u currently revelling in how much of an irritance u have become to us "real" manx?
b) r u of a slighty retarded disposition that disallows u from realising that we cottoned on millenii ago?
c) r u, in fact, a real utd fan but of the very worst kind?
or
d) r u a fecknut who can only taunt from the solace of ur console?

i think d) but pray for a) if only to salvage this ever deteriorating image i have of mankind.
 
Originally posted by skillz:
<strong>
Also two of Arsenals key players when they have won anything have been Viera and Bergkamp, both not signed by Wenger. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually he did sign Vieira. Bruce Rioch was sacked just before the 96/97 season started. David Dein got Wenger to replace him, but Wenger was still under contract at Grampus Eight. Wenger believes in honoring his contract so he finished the season in Japan and then came to Arsenal, in the meantime Pat Rice was in charge and Wenger told him to sign Vieira and Remi Garde. Did you actually think Pat Rice signed Vieira, who was back then a totally unknown youngster?

There is no way you can compare Fergie and Wenger as managers. Fergie has been manager of Manutd for 16 years whilst Wenger has only managed Arsenal for 6 years. It took Fergie 7 years to win the title while Wenger won the double in his second year at Arsenal. And if he wins the double again this year he will have won the double twice in his first six years while Fergie won what in his first six years? The FA Cup once and the League Cup once.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Arsenal:
<strong>

Actually he did sign Vieira. Bruce Rioch was sacked just before the 96/97 season started. David Dein got Wenger to replace him, but Wenger was still under contract at Grampus Eight. Wenger believes in honoring his contract so he finished the season in Japan and then came to Arsenal, in the meantime Pat Rice was in charge and Wenger told him to sign Vieira and Remi Garde. Did you actually think Pat Rice signed Vieira, who was back then a totally unknown youngster?

There is no way you can compare Fergie and Wenger as managers. Fergie has been manager of Manutd for 16 years whilst Wenger has only managed Arsenal for 6 years. It took Fergie 7 years to win the title while Wenger won the double in his second year at Arsenal. And if he wins the double again this year he will have won the double twice in his first six years while Fergie won what in his first six years? The FA Cup once and the League Cup once.</strong><hr></blockquote>
But what were United like before Alex joined, and Arsenal when Wenger joined?
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Arsenal:
<strong>

Actually he did sign Vieira. Bruce Rioch was sacked just before the 96/97 season started. David Dein got Wenger to replace him, but Wenger was still under contract at Grampus Eight. Wenger believes in honoring his contract so he finished the season in Japan and then came to Arsenal, in the meantime Pat Rice was in charge and Wenger told him to sign Vieira and Remi Garde. Did you actually think Pat Rice signed Vieira, who was back then a totally unknown youngster?

There is no way you can compare Fergie and Wenger as managers. Fergie has been manager of Manutd for 16 years whilst Wenger has only managed Arsenal for 6 years. It took Fergie 7 years to win the title while Wenger won the double in his second year at Arsenal. And if he wins the double again this year he will have won the double twice in his first six years while Fergie won what in his first six years? The FA Cup once and the League Cup once.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Rebuilding a club takes some time.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Arsenal:
<strong>There is no way you can compare Fergie and Wenger as managers.</strong><hr></blockquote>Yet you do ...
Then this, posted by Arsenal:
<strong>Fergie has been manager of Manutd for 16 years whilst Wenger has only managed Arsenal for 6 years. It took Fergie 7 years to win the title while Wenger won the double in his second year at Arsenal. And if he wins the double again this year he will have won the double twice in his first six years while Fergie won what in his first six years? The FA Cup once and the League Cup once.</strong><hr></blockquote> That's a comparison, right? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
But what were United like before Alex joined, and Arsenal when Wenger joined?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Manutd finished 4th in the league in '86 and also in '85.

Arsenal finished 5th in league in '96 and 12th in '95.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by True Treble Reds:
<strong> That's a comparison, right? :rolleyes: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well what do you know, I guess you can after all. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
Click to expand...
 
it has to be admitted though, as muc h as it pains me, that saf is not as good a manager as aw in so many regards - spotting talent (kidd/mclaren did all the work) , working with budget, success - 2 doubles(maybe*) in 5 yrs to nothing worthwhile in six for saf.

We have to admit it, a monkey could have ran utd in the last 10 yrs.

We need Wenger now. Get him at all costs!!!!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by Arsenal:
<strong>

Manutd finished 4th in the league in '86 and also in '85.

Arsenal finished 5th in league in '96 and 12th in '95.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's not the point is it? Arsenal as a club were in a far stronger position structurally when Wenger took over than United were when SAF took over. Arsenal had even won the league in SAF's time pre 92!

And why are you gooners so loyal to him? If the right offer came along, he'd feck you off quicker than I would be up Kylie Minogue if I got the green light from her. He's not in the same class as SAF and you all know it! you're going to win the title again by one point, not because you've been the best team, but because United fecked up in the early part of the season. When you play us now, you'll end up in the same situation as your blue brothers down the road - beaten!
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.