Wealth & Income Inequality

Didn’t think you were being a dick at all!

Re the bit in bold. See above for the effect on the average employee of radical cuts to CEO pay in these massive corporations. Spoiler, not much.

Would have a big impact in a small company, mind you. That’s why you see a lot of CEOs in smaller tech companies choosing to pay themselves very little.

Yeah, I saw that. But that was from one of the corporations with the most employees in the US. If you combine all the excessive wealth from all the CEOs of the, for example, 1000 biggest companies, and redistribute that wealth, I'm sure the numbers would be quite different. It don't even have to go towards the workers via the paycheck, but to society as a whole. The average CEO of a Forbes 500 company makes 10,5 million dollars. Let's say that 1,5 million dollars is the "cap". That adds up to a lot of money which could help society move in the right direction. Now, this is just the numbers for the CEOs. There are probably plenty of greedy feckers in his chain of command who makes ridiculous amounts as well. Those has to be included as well obviously.

Also, people wonder why health care is expensive in the US. That's because the executives make a feckton. CEO John Hammergren of health care company McKesson made a whooping 131 million dollars in 2012. Now, what's the salary of the average nurse in the same company? :(
 
How does one come up with a arbitrary figure? Are just taking CEO of companies alone or expanding across other business streams too? Do we have salary cap for doctors? What about fashion designers? Real Estate moghuls? Same cap for everyone?

I was trying to estimate what 12 times the median wage was. I know it's most likely wrong, neither is this my personal political view. I understand it's not realistic, neither is it fair. But the idealist in me tells me that we should do something about the insane money executives make. Let's say if you make more than 1,5 million, you're taxed 80 cents on the dollar for every dollar above that for example.

Also, I definitely don't think a doctor should make more than 1,5 mill. Fashion designers? Sure, they sell their own products. Supply and demand, etc. But if they make a lot, tax them a lot. I also think tax on capital is fair.
 
Didn't realize there was a paywall...and I've not paid for any news sites! Not sure I can quote the full article, but here goes...

Lloyd Blankfein, who is stepping down as chief executive of Goldman Sachs, personified the era of economic inequality. At a time when average Americans are struggling to make wage gains, Blankfein was paid tens of millions every year, and his firm catered to the wealthiest of Americans.

This country could use more people like Blankfein.

It has become axiomatic that inequality is the United States’ leading social problem, and by that metric, Blankfein, if not quite public enemy one, is certainly a social undesirable. Indeed, Blankfein’s firm has the rare distinction of being an anathema to both supporters of Bernie Sanders and of Donald Trump.

But what if inequality is the wrong metric. Herewith a modest proposition: economic inequality is not the best yardstick. What we should be paying attention to is social mobility.

The concepts are similar enough to often be confused. For instance, if you lived in a country where all the wage gains were captured by a very few (inequality), it would be hard for anyone else to make progress (lack of mobility). And that’s not so far off from describing the United States today.

But the distinctions are important, and they lead to different sorts of conclusions. If the problem is defined as inequality, a big earner such as Blankfein clearly makes it worse. But if people from the wrong side of the tracks are angry not so much because they earn less than their neighbors but because, rightly or wrongly, they don’t think they could ever become, say, a Wall Street CEO, Blankfein should be a role model. His father was a postal worker in New York City. That he made it to Harvard and to the top of Wall Street should be an inspiration.

The brief here is that policies designed to increase the number of Blankfeins will do more good than policies designed to level income disparities.

When social policy is viewed through the prism of inequality, you get some wacky results. If someone on your block won the lottery, that would be a bad thing (raises inequality), right? Of course not. Okay, that example is facetious.

Here’s a real one: Critics have griped that whatever city Amazon.com chooses for its second headquarters will in fact be a loser because when Amazon moves in and creates 50,000 jobs, rents will rise and “inequality” will increase. (Amazon chief executive Jeffrey P. Bezos owns The Washington Post.)

That’s not only a real example, it’s an absurd one. More people working at good salaries cannot be a bad thing (if it were, economic policy would be easy: Just make every employer close its doors and watch all rents go to zero).

Rising inequality, although a fact, is also very hard to find a culprit for. Not that economists haven’t tried. Some of the common suspects include globalism, immigration and the decline of labor unions. Jonathan Rothwell, an economist at Gallup, debunked all three — at least, he demonstrated that there is no clear correlation between those trends and rising inequality.

No clear cause means no clear remedy. “Inequality,” moreover, is not as simple as is often assumed. The term is used as though it were measuring a single quantity, such as poverty. More poverty is bad; that’s true, and it is always true.

But inequality, by definition, describes two things — it refers to inequality between one group and some other group. It depends on which two groups are being measured, and it matters, or should matter, if inequality is rising because the lower group is falling or stagnant, or because the higher group is rising.

In the United States over recent decades, two things have been happening. Wage gains have been very slow across most income groups. And incomes in the top 1 percent (and especially the top tenth of a percent) have been skyrocketing. It’s clear that returns to professionals have soared; it’s much debated why this is so.

It’s also far from proved — to me, it’s not even intuitive — that high incomes on Wall Street and elsewhere are the reason for, say, flatter wages in manufacturing. The fact that Mark Zuckerberg is so rich is annoying, and his separateness from Main Street may not be a great thing socially, but in an economic sense, his fortune did not “come from” the paychecks of ordinary workers. Most of the increase in inequality in the United States has occurred in or close to the Zuckerberg stratum, in the 1 percent and the 0.1 percent. On the other hand, income ratios between people at the 90th percentile and the 50th percentile haven’t changed very much.

What’s really a big concern is that mobility in the sub-Zuckerberg stratum is stagnant and by some measures falling. A study by six scholars led by Raj Chetty released a month after the Trump election looked at children born in the 1980s and found that only half, by age 30, were making more than their parents did at a comparable age — whereas two generations earlier, 90 percent were earning more than their folks. By that measure, mobility in the United States is falling through the floor.

That conclusion could be overstated. Greg Mankiw, author of a best-selling college economics textbook, has argued that due to innovations ranging from antibiotics to air conditioning that inflation statistics fail to capture, people today are living better off, relative to the past, than it might appear.

There is another way to think about mobility: How often do people at the bottom of the ladder rise to the top (or rise from the bottom to the middle, and so on). By that yardstick, mobility isn’t falling so fast, but it certainly isn’t as high as we’d like.

Raising mobility should be a priority — and as a guide to policy, it is less controversial, and less politicized, than inequality. More social mobility (however it’s measured) is always a good thing.

And we know something about how to engineer upward mobility: in a phrase, more and better education. A landmark 2017 study (co-authored by Chetty), showed that lower-income students who get to college do about as well as higher-income students at similar institutions. As the authors put it, “most colleges successfully level the playing field.”

Fortunately, more lower-income students are entering college. However, many are in community colleges, where dropout rates tend to be high and economic results are lower.

Lower-income students at elite private universities get very good outcomes, but not many go to such schools. (Indeed, a child born to the poorest fifth of the population is 77 times less likely to attend an Ivy League college than a child of the 1 percent.)

The authors suggest it is more critical to admit, and support, greater numbers of low-income students at quality public universities. Their study identified several — California State University at Los Angeles, City University of New York and the University of Texas at El Paso — that accept large numbers of low-income students and generate “very good outcomes.” Such colleges could provide a “scalable model for increasing upward mobility” — and at an instructional cost of $8,000 per student, compared with $54,000 at elite private colleges. Not enhancing taxpayer support for such schools would seem criminal. That’s just one idea — but it’s a big one.

Of course, taxes come from someplace, and the wealthy need to pay a higher share. But taxing the wealthy to pay for social goods is different from targeting the gap, per se, as the problem. One approach uses government to level, the other to promote opportunity and advancement.

The latter was enthusiastically embraced by Abraham Lincoln. The 16th president defended wealth because, he said, it was proof to the poor man that he could become rich.

“I want every man to have the chance,” he declared in a campaign speech in 1860, pointedly adding, “And I believe a black man is entitled to it — in which he can better his condition — when he may look forward and hope to be a hired laborer this year and the next, work for himself, and finally to hire men to work for him.”

Lincoln, a rail splitter turned railroad lawyer, understood the concept of social mobility, the American Dream.


Cheers. Yeah the Wash Post, NY Times and a few others have an article limit per month. I guess I read a lot of news because I always seem to hit that limit in a few days
 
Cheers. Yeah the Wash Post, NY Times and a few others have an article limit per month. I guess I read a lot of news because I always seem to hit that limit in a few days

It's basic human nature to want more. Putting a cap and saying that's it, you've reached the amount of rewards you can get out of life is beyond human nature. Ever since people understood the concept of ownership, they wanted more. More knowledge, more wealth, more everything. Some people are satisfied with what they have, lesser amount of people are willing to give up what they have... But these are more exceptions and not the rule.

Inequality is natural. Some people are smarter than others, stronger than others or just plain luckier than others. Expectations of equality in anything other than social constructs like laws is not natural and even within social constructs its not always possible (immigration scenario). Balancing progress and inequality is a fine line, more a myth imo.

What is important is that wealth and income is not restricted to few. It should be available to all. And as long as its there with equal opportunity (as much as can be) , society is fine.
 
It's basic human nature to want more. Putting a cap and saying that's it, you've reached the amount of rewards you can get out of life is beyond human nature. Ever since people understood the concept of ownership, they wanted more. More knowledge, more wealth, more everything. Some people are satisfied with what they have, lesser amount of people are willing to give up what they have... But these are more exceptions and not the rule.

Inequality is natural. Some people are smarter than others, stronger than others or just plain luckier than others. Expectations of equality in anything other than social constructs like laws is not natural and even within social constructs its not always possible (immigration scenario). Balancing progress and inequality is a fine line, more a myth imo.

What is important is that wealth and income is not restricted to few. It should be available to all. And as long as its there with equal opportunity (as much as can be) , society is fine.

Did you read the article I posted last week?

The Great Gatsby Curve (Figure 2): Inequality and class immobility go together.

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"Rising immobility and rising inequality aren’t like two pieces of driftwood that happen to have shown up on the beach at the same time, he noted. They wash up together on every shore. Across countries, the higher the inequality, the higher the IGE (see Figure 2). It’s as if human societies have a natural tendency to separate, and then, once the classes are far enough apart, to crystallize.

Economists are prudent creatures, and they’ll look up from a graph like that and remind you that it shows only correlation, not causation. That’s a convenient hedge for those of us at the top because it keeps alive one of the founding myths of America’s meritocracy: that our success has nothing to do with other people’sfailure. It’s a pleasant idea. But around the world and throughout history, the wealthy have advanced the crystallization process in a straightforward way. They have taken their money out of productive activities and put it into walls. Throughout history, moreover, one social group above all others has assumed responsibility for maintaining and defending these walls. Its members used to be called aristocrats. Now we’re the 9.9 percent. The main difference is that we have figured out how to use the pretense of being part of the middle as one of our strategies for remaining on top."


https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/
 
Did you read the article I posted last week
I did. Didn't really get the point. So just the Uber billionaires are the problem. The next tier is too. And where does it stop. Have they considered the 10% below the 'aristocracy' and found that they do not hoard what they have and pass it down to their children? Saving money for children is pretty much done at every level, from the poorest parents to richest ones.

To be frank, I personally don't qualify as one of the 9.9%. Majority of who I know also don't and they do hoard money for their children. Is that wrong?

The meritocratic class has mastered the old trick of consolidating wealth and passing privilege along at the expense of other people’s children.

I call this unsubstantiated bullshit. Is there any direct correlation proven that educating one kid is at cost of another?

That’s a convenient hedge for those of us at the top because it keeps alive one of the founding myths of America’s meritocracy: that our success has nothing to do with other people’s failure. It’s a pleasant idea. But around the world and throughout history, the wealthy have advanced the crystallization process in a straightforward way. They have taken their money out of productive activities and put it into walls.

Another segment I call bullshit.

Singapore became independent later than India. Japan recovered better from the war and bombing than many countries not as badly affected in the region. Their success came at whose expense? And who exactly failed during America's earlier era of development?
 
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Why has the salary of the CEO become so important anyway? There's so few CEO's relative to all other roles that in numbers they're almost irrelevant and their salary is literally decided by the people who own the business. They don't pay the CEO out of charity or to spite the poor or as a sacrifice to capitalism.
 
Why has the salary of the CEO become so important anyway? There's so few CEO's relative to all other roles that in numbers they're almost irrelevant and their salary is literally decided by the people who own the business. They don't pay the CEO out of charity or to spite the poor or as a sacrifice to capitalism.
It's indicative of companies corporate cultures and their income distribution. The CEO vs. Average is just used because it's the biggest gap - but companies where the CEO gets 1000x (random number I picked) the average pay also include loads of executives and management employees who take a significant, and disproportionate amount of the wealth created. Wealth that should be spread more evenly.
 
Why has the salary of the CEO become so important anyway?
Because it's one of the most important jobs in the company. Keeping people employed and shareholders happy. The choose the direction and success of the company. Look at Apple performance without Steve Jobs.

I'm not a fan of current CEO pay structure, but not related to their salary ... Just want better ties to company performance. You don't want a CEO flying a private jet to ask for funding from government. And if a company does bad and had to lay off, I want CEO to forego and even retrospectively get back previous earnings.
 
the average pay also include loads of executives and management employees who take a significant, and disproportionate amount of the wealth created.
Not true. My team sells products. They have a team of 1500+ people who work on those on everyday basis. It still is due to work of 15 of us to generate work for 1500 more people. And I expect to be paid accordingly. The ratio of how important the work is to success of company can't be brushed off under some guise of faux equality.
 
It's indicative of companies corporate cultures and their income distribution. The CEO vs. Average is just used because it's the biggest gap - but companies where the CEO gets 1000x (random number I picked) the average pay also include loads of executives and management employees who take a significant, and disproportionate amount of the wealth created. Wealth that should be spread more evenly.

I would argue that for a smaller company, the gap between the CEO and everyone else would usually be more sensible, and that what we're really seeing is super international companies of medium to large scale paying their CEO's competitive rates for the bigger market share and operation that's pretty proportional to the size of the company. Not that I'm massively pro on super companies but the job of the lower tiered people is almost the same no matter what size of company you work for, but the CEO's is not, for a bigger company his/her responsibility grows exponentially and they will be hired and paid on that basis.
 
Not true. My team sells products. They have a team of 1500+ people who work on those on everyday basis. It still is due to work of 15 of us to generate work for 1500 more people. And I expect to be paid accordingly. The ratio of how important the work is to success of company can't be brushed off under some guise of faux equality.
Those 1500 people work just as hard as you do and deserve decent compensation.

I would argue that for a smaller company, the gap between the CEO and everyone else would usually be more sensible, and that what we're really seeing is super international companies of medium to large scale paying their CEO's competitive rates for the bigger market share and operation that's pretty proportional to the size of the company. Not that I'm massively pro on super companies but the job of the lower tiered people is almost the same no matter what size of company you work for, but the CEO's is not, for a bigger company his/her responsibility grows exponentially and they will be hired and paid on that basis.
These companies exited years ago and were destroying society just much while paying their executives less (and that was still a lot of money). Their wage inflation is simple greed.
 
Not true. My team sells products. They have a team of 1500+ people who work on those on everyday basis. It still is due to work of 15 of us to generate work for 1500 more people. And I expect to be paid accordingly. The ratio of how important the work is to success of company can't be brushed off under some guise of faux equality.

But you do need those 1500 people to be able to sell any products?
 
Those 1500 people work just as hard as you do and deserve decent compensation.

Do you recognise there is an important distinction in priority for skills and competency over 'working hard' in the workplace?
 
Also @Silva I would add is it really just greed if the owner of the company is deciding to hand over their own money to this person they believe will steer the ship into the best direction. And I would put to you, if you found yourself in such a position, I'm assuming you'd tell them to pay you significantly less than they were otherwise willing to pay you, being that I'm assuming you aren't greedy?
 
Also @Silva I would add is it really just greed if the owner of the company is deciding to hand over their own money to this person they believe will steer the ship into the best direction. And I would put to you, if you found yourself in such a position, I'm assuming you'd tell them to pay you significantly less than they were otherwise willing to pay you, being that I'm assuming you aren't greedy?
Spread it over a 1000s of normal shareholders who depend on the company to further their investment and its a new dimension.
 
Do you recognise there is an important distinction in priority for skills and competency over 'working hard' in the workplace?
Drone work might be easier and lower skilled, but not to the extent that their wage difference indicates. Sure, pay people with more difficult and skilled jobs more - but not to the detriment of the rest of the workforce, nor to the extent where someone making a millions every year is having their office cleaned by someone paying 60% of their wage on rent and struggling to feed and clothe their children.

Also @Silva I would add is it really just greed if the owner of the company is deciding to hand over their own money to this person they believe will steer the ship into the best direction. And I would put to you, if you found yourself in such a position, I'm assuming you'd tell them to pay you significantly less than they were otherwise willing to pay you, being that I'm assuming you aren't greedy?
These companies don't really have an owner, they're an owned by a network of incestuous capital management companies and investment indexes which send their people to sit on multiple boards that treat the majority of their employees as numbers rather than people, who shut down wage increases for the average worker while green lighting every bonus and wage increase for the executive branch.
 
Drone work might be easier and lower skilled, but not to the extent that their wage difference indicates. Sure, pay people with more difficult and skilled jobs more - but not to the detriment of the rest of the workforce, nor to the extent where someone making a millions every year is having their office cleaned by someone paying 60% of their wage on rent and struggling to feed and clothe their children.


These companies don't really have an owner, they're an owned by a network of incestuous capital management companies and investment indexes which send their people to sit on multiple boards that treat the majority of their employees as numbers rather than people, who shut down wage increases for the average worker while green lighting every bonus and wage increase for the executive branch.

Good post.
 
Drone work might be easier and lower skilled, but not to the extent that their wage difference indicates

What makes you think that you're more qualified to decide that than the free market? You've no authority to claim that.
 
The free market as it exists can fall down a well and drown.

It's the best we can do and it produces a lot of good too, not just the bad. Other systems are even more susceptible to tyranny.
 
See also; the difference in regulation between financial sectors and drug distribution. Where regulation are lax, the financial sector, abuse and destruction is rampant. Where regulations are tight, the pharmaceutical sector, abuse and destruction is less rampant. And in countries where drug regulations are tailored for profit abuse and destruction is more rampant than countries where pharmaceuticals regulations are tailored to the public good; again, America vs most of Europe.
 
This is demonstrably false, see the difference between any Scandinavian country and America. Where the free market is given space, it will take it and use it to enrich the few.

A quick google says that they're all quite different than each other and that they're based on free market capitalism with a 'widespread commitment to private ownership, free markets and free trade'. You're going to have to be a bit more specific.
 
A quick google says that they're all quite different than each other and that they're based on free market capitalism with a 'widespread commitment to private ownership, free markets and free trade'. You're going to have to be a bit more specific.
See my post above. The most publicly reported example of this would be the opioid crisis which was caused by the greed inherent in the American health system. A crisis which doesn't arise where profit isn't a motive in the same industry. Another example in this industry is people dying on the streets for no reason other than being poor. This is wholly immoral.

Another public example is the subprime mortgage crash a decade age, which the free market knew about well in advance, laughed about and yet used to destroy lives purely for their own profit. Countries which gave the free market more space were the most impacted - America and Britain.
 
See my post above. The most publicly reported example of this would be the opioid crisis which was caused by the greed inherent in the American health system. A crisis which doesn't arise where profit isn't a motive in the same industry. Another example in this industry is people dying on the streets for no reason other than being poor. This is wholly immoral.

Another public example is the subprime mortgage crash a decade age, which the free market knew about well in advance, laughed about and yet used to destroy lives purely for their own profit. Countries which gave the free market more space were the most impacted - America and Britain.
Is it that free market system is the problem or that people are just assholes ?
 
Is it that free market system is the problem or that people are just assholes ?
It's the free market. This becomes obvious when you see how different policies have different impacts in different countries and different industries. Where the market is tightly regulated, where decent wages are mandated and where good safety nets exists there is less poverty, lower levels of income inequality and lower levels of abuse. No country gets everything right, but it seems to me like some countries do things better than others, and the common element in the things they get right is that they have good regulations and oversight where they get it right.

The people are asshole/human nature argument doesn't really work, because humans have exited in multiple different systems with different values. And is also demonstrable through simple laws we all agree on, e.g murder is illegal everywhere. People still murder other people, but that's no reason to allow it and we all agree on that. Even murderers agree.
 
See my post above. The most publicly reported example of this would be the opioid crisis which was caused by the greed inherent in the American health system. A crisis which doesn't arise where profit isn't a motive in the same industry. Another example in this industry is people dying on the streets for no reason other than being poor. This is wholly immoral.

Another public example is the subprime mortgage crash a decade age, which the free market knew about well in advance, laughed about and yet used to destroy lives purely for their own profit. Countries which gave the free market more space were the most impacted - America and Britain.

I don't disagree with you at all re your two examples, in that they're obviously both scenarios where there was catastrophic failure, be it through loose laws, greed or not enough regulation (or all of the above). I'd be more on board about limiting the sizes of companies themselves, akin to monopoly laws, rather than to concentrate on wealth and salaries of citizens and individuals within those companies. Redistributing wealth etc means giving more power to the government than any company has ever had under our current system and more power than anyone should have in any civil society. It might work great to begin with or the first time, if we're really lucky and anarchy doesn't break out but now a huge weapon has been created which will inevitably fall to tyranny sooner or later and be used to cause more devastation than any company ever could in the free market.
 
I don't disagree with you at all re your two examples, in that they're obviously both scenarios where there was catastrophic failure, be it through loose laws, greed or not enough regulation (or all of the above). I'd be more on board about limiting the sizes of companies themselves, akin to monopoly laws, rather than to concentrate on wealth and salaries of citizens and individuals within those companies. Redistributing wealth etc means giving more power to the government than any company has ever had under our current system and more power than anyone should have in any civil society. It might work great to begin with or the first time, if we're really lucky and anarchy doesn't break out but now a huge weapon has been created which will inevitably fall to tyranny sooner or later and be used to cause more devastation than any company ever could in the free market.
The only country that has ever used this weapon, with a president that threatens to use it in our current time is the one with the biggest and freest markets. There are tyrants with the weapon. In Russia and China, and they're not using it or threatening to use it. That post is so bad mate. Like, anarchy if we regulate the markets? Jesus feck. I really don't know how to respond properly, it's too absurd and unfounded.