All 3 of them....
We have the strongest and most balanced squad post-Fergie
- Thread starter Borys
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All 3 of them....
Too many good things about the squad are on paper/potential yet. Way too early to claim “best”.
On the other hand, balanced part seems acceptable but risk of injuries/new players not gelling / poor form can quickly fill up our deadwood cabinet.
On the other hand, balanced part seems acceptable but risk of injuries/new players not gelling / poor form can quickly fill up our deadwood cabinet.
It's definitely a top 4 squad and better than the ones Jose and Ole had. I think we're also in a similar position, it could be 3rd or 6th based on luck and/or managerial performance.
Squad ability is always going to be assessed based on managerial performance, it's impossible to unwind the two retrospectively. Players form fluctuates independent of the manager and because of the manager so looking at it ahead of the season makes a lot of sense.
Squad ability is always going to be assessed based on managerial performance, it's impossible to unwind the two retrospectively. Players form fluctuates independent of the manager and because of the manager so looking at it ahead of the season makes a lot of sense.
Think you are probably right at this point. But all it takes is de ligt to look rubbish, mazraoi to get injured and zirkzee to have 4 goals by march before we are talking about deadwood and rebuilds.
I'm not negative just saying all new signings are great until they arent.
I'm not negative just saying all new signings are great until they arent.
Minus Scholes
Strongest and most balanced? First of all, doesn't matter at all. This "strongest" squad is still nowhere near enough to compete for a top 3 finish. And why? Because it isn't balanced at all. INEOS fixed (hopefully) the defense, but the midfield is still a chaos and the worst part is the offense. No quality wingers, no quality forwards. Where's the balance then? Nowhere.
And the worst manager we've had since Sexton so that cancels it out sadly.
Honestly, there are still questions over almost every area of the pitch.
Our strongest area is actually right back with Dalot and Mazrauoi.
The rest of the squad fall into the following categories
Questionable quality/unproven
Injury prone
Young players not at their peak yet
Old/slow players who are past their best
Players suited to transition hot potato football but not keeping possession
Having said that, most of the top 8 will have similar issues in their squad so we should have as much chance at top 4 as any of the stragglers.
Our strongest area is actually right back with Dalot and Mazrauoi.
The rest of the squad fall into the following categories
Questionable quality/unproven
Injury prone
Young players not at their peak yet
Old/slow players who are past their best
Players suited to transition hot potato football but not keeping possession
Having said that, most of the top 8 will have similar issues in their squad so we should have as much chance at top 4 as any of the stragglers.
Not sure Id agree with this. In defence, yes. In midfield though, its debatable, and in attack, its not even close to our best post-Fergie. Overall, its the same mixed bag as always.
I'd say we have a squad filled with players with x-factor and our problem is exactly the opposite, we don't have an efficient way to isolate attackers 1on1 to give them platform to do their thing.
"One of the weakest"? I get your doubts over this squad but as far as I remember we always used to have some serious (IMO more serious than now) problems. Like mentioned in my original post, we made it quite far with Maguire-Lindelof and McFred midfield, with Pogba and Matic around! Granted we had a better attack, but that was only for a while and overall I think on paper this squad looks better. What other configurations from the last 10 years would you put ahead of this current one?
On the "comparing to current rivals", I'm not up to date what's hapenning there so won't comment. I think checking against previous United teams is a good exercise though.
Hojlund had better conversion rate than Haaland last season, in fact one of the best in the league. The problem is he went a few games without a shot.
Do we? Did anyone say that last season? I also think with a bit of negative vibes at the moment it's just a nice spin.
We have a better squad than the one that finished 3rd, and even without those summer reinforcements we won 2 trophies in last 2 seasons.
Let's not make it about the manager indeed, plenty of other threads to moan about him.
We've got a lot of youth across the team, but we don't have a top striker or winger.
Keeper has it all to prove still, we haven't been able to field a specialist left back for more than 20% of the last 15months, and we're placing a lot of hope on the new signings.
Keeper has it all to prove still, we haven't been able to field a specialist left back for more than 20% of the last 15months, and we're placing a lot of hope on the new signings.
With everybody fit, we have a good squad. Still think we need to get rid of Lindelof, need another midfielder (one that can pass / retain possession / etc) and need a goal scorer. And long term get Sancho and Antony out and bring in another attack.
Think were two short and really need somebody to score goals (unless Ruud helps to transform one of our attackers into a 30 goal a season player especially as our midfield doesnt chip in as much as it should)
Think were two short and really need somebody to score goals (unless Ruud helps to transform one of our attackers into a 30 goal a season player especially as our midfield doesnt chip in as much as it should)
It's definitely a work in progress for me - Onana needs to show us a bit more of what we brought him for (progressive passing / sweeping - why we haven't seen it consistently is not entirely on him though, while remaining solid with the gloves), we'll need an LB next summer if Shaw can't stay fit yet again, and we'll have to assess our attacking options either in January or next summer if our current forwards can't deliver. It's a squad that is good enough and balanced enough for top 4 that can grow into a contender (especially with the age profiles, and on reasonable wages too) with a few more pieces added over time. Let's see how this season progresses, on paper I think we're the most balanced we've been in a decade but we have to see what we do with that on the pitch.
We don't need 30 goals a season striker, it's uncommon to score more than 15 goals a season in EPL these days anyway. What we need is everyone of the attackers to chip in with goals and by the looks of things it looks like it will be the case.
If we get top striker or winger we might probably challenge for top 3. But even with this squad we should be top 4 contenders at the very least.
We've finished 2nd and 3rd with worse squad. Granted, with some luck and opponents having a tough season, but still.
Agreed, hence my statement. We dont have midfielders (im gonna count the wide players as that) who chip in like they should. So we either need that, or a goal scorer getting big numbers. Also a season (meaning all comps not just the league)
Mans left out Antony completely. The disrespect on his name
We're going to struggle for goals unless Rashford and Garnacho step up. Maybe if Hojlund and Zirkzee also take the next steps in their development. But its all very uncertain upfront.
We are definitely covered by all but the worst injury crises. Maybe except at the left back spot but I suppose Shaw and Malacia SHOULD be able to return soon.
What? Literally half the teams in the league had a player who scored more than 15 last season.
Think many are really forgetting how bad some of our post SAF squads were. OP is right in that this is the most balanced one we've had overall, even if the attack is unproven.
Are you counting penalty goals as well? Last time I checked it was 5 teams. Half of those players had twice the xG that Hojlund had.
Our problem last season was creating good chances in the first place.
Too early to say. We have quite a few who are young or bew and we don't actually have Aby real idea how good or reliable they are, or how well they'll settle in.
Also if you took Jose or Ole's first 11 at certain points, I don't know how many of the current players would get in it
Martinez and Bruno are the only definites imo. I'd say Casemiro but the caf hates him
Also if you took Jose or Ole's first 11 at certain points, I don't know how many of the current players would get in it
Martinez and Bruno are the only definites imo. I'd say Casemiro but the caf hates him
Casually puts in Rashy and Shaw as if they are proper working options. Both are broke in different ways.
Bruno has been top of many stats, except what matters the most that is G + A. Then we have Mount who was injured all last season and Eriksen whose legs have gone.
One will need tinted glasses and extreme optimism to start calling it strong, reliable team.
Potentially, all may find top form, score tons of goal and stay injury free and get us into a title fight, but I don't think the probability of that is that high.
We really don't have what we need. Every season, we face the same issue. We desperately need a midfielder who can beat the press from deep and progress the ball forward. We're crying out for this type of player.
Agree with all this. If Ugarte delivers, think we're challenging for fourth if we aren't hit by over training injuries again. We will have to rotate a lot more to avoid that. Problem is the gap to the top three is massive so it only takes one other team to do well and we're fekked.
Right tools wrong technician
Onana - very rounded goalkeeper (worse shot stopper than prime De Gea, but useful in the buildup) _ I am not convinced that he's a good goalkeeper.
Dalot / Mazroui - two versatile and athletic fullbacks - Agreed.
Shaw - good when fit, obvious concerns about his injury record Agreed
Martinez/de Ligt/Yoro - probably the strongest we've been at CB for many many years, and we still have Maguire/Lindelof as backup I've seen 10 minutes of de Ligt and 0 minutes of Yoro - so no idea about them. I like Martinez
Casemiro/Ugarte - defensive midfielder, not one, but two! And each one a completely different type. Yes ! One of them is old, slow and well passed his best. I've not seen the other one play.
Mainoo/Eriksen/Mount - not super exciting options apart from Kobbie, but at least our first choice looks great Mainoo good, but we will overwork him. Eriksen, same as Casemiro . Mount has not found his feet or spot in the team yet.
Bruno/Mount - got the #10 covered, and I could throw in more players who can do the job there as we love stacking up #10s Bruno is either excellent or ridiculous. Mount - see above.
Rashford/Garnacho/Amad - whatever is happening with Marcus now, he IS capable of scoring goals, and we're pretty covered on RW as well (funny we've spent 150m on RW and neither of them is even considered here) Rashford other than one season, absolutely hopeless and worse, lazy and disinterested. Garnacho, plenty of talent and excitement. Will only get better. Amad. Not at all impressed.
Hojlund/Zirkzee as strikers - IMO here we are the weakest as far as "first choice goes" (I have doubts over Rasmus), but still we do have two strikers, plus good cover in Rashford/Bruno for different purposes Hoijlund seems to be struggling to get service and to be an integral part of the team. He is better than Worthog so it's an improvement. Zirkzee, I've only see 45 minutes, but he scored and I likes that. I hope he continues this form. Rashford as a backup is more useless than he is on the wing, which is quite an achievement in under achievement. Bruno isn't a striker.
So whilst I can see that we are moving in the right direction, we haven't yet seen it on the pitch - but I hope that we do.
Dalot / Mazroui - two versatile and athletic fullbacks - Agreed.
Shaw - good when fit, obvious concerns about his injury record Agreed
Martinez/de Ligt/Yoro - probably the strongest we've been at CB for many many years, and we still have Maguire/Lindelof as backup I've seen 10 minutes of de Ligt and 0 minutes of Yoro - so no idea about them. I like Martinez
Casemiro/Ugarte - defensive midfielder, not one, but two! And each one a completely different type. Yes ! One of them is old, slow and well passed his best. I've not seen the other one play.
Mainoo/Eriksen/Mount - not super exciting options apart from Kobbie, but at least our first choice looks great Mainoo good, but we will overwork him. Eriksen, same as Casemiro . Mount has not found his feet or spot in the team yet.
Bruno/Mount - got the #10 covered, and I could throw in more players who can do the job there as we love stacking up #10s Bruno is either excellent or ridiculous. Mount - see above.
Rashford/Garnacho/Amad - whatever is happening with Marcus now, he IS capable of scoring goals, and we're pretty covered on RW as well (funny we've spent 150m on RW and neither of them is even considered here) Rashford other than one season, absolutely hopeless and worse, lazy and disinterested. Garnacho, plenty of talent and excitement. Will only get better. Amad. Not at all impressed.
Hojlund/Zirkzee as strikers - IMO here we are the weakest as far as "first choice goes" (I have doubts over Rasmus), but still we do have two strikers, plus good cover in Rashford/Bruno for different purposes Hoijlund seems to be struggling to get service and to be an integral part of the team. He is better than Worthog so it's an improvement. Zirkzee, I've only see 45 minutes, but he scored and I likes that. I hope he continues this form. Rashford as a backup is more useless than he is on the wing, which is quite an achievement in under achievement. Bruno isn't a striker.
So whilst I can see that we are moving in the right direction, we haven't yet seen it on the pitch - but I hope that we do.
The last paragraph - that's all we can hope for. The point is, objectively I don't think we've had a better squad since Fergie left. We've won trophies with worse squads than we have today that's for sure, so I just think it's a positive for the future.
And just to be clear, best squad since Fergie doesn't mean we're challenging for the title. But I am still interested if anyone actually suggest a season when our squad was stronger (throughout all the formations) than the current one.
Pretty happy with this for the season to build on for future, fight for top 4 and maybe a cup run.....
If we are not competitive half way through season, RVN takes over as interim to see what he's got.
------------------------------------------Onana-----------------
Mazzraoui/Dalot -----DeLigt/Harry/Yoro........Martinez.............Dalot/Shaw
------------------Ugarte/Casemiro----------Mainoo/Casemiro
--------------------------------------Bruno/Mount-----------
Diallo/Garnacho---------Hojlund-Zirkzee?----------Garnacho/Rashford
If we are not competitive half way through season, RVN takes over as interim to see what he's got.
------------------------------------------Onana-----------------
Mazzraoui/Dalot -----DeLigt/Harry/Yoro........Martinez.............Dalot/Shaw
------------------Ugarte/Casemiro----------Mainoo/Casemiro
--------------------------------------Bruno/Mount-----------
Diallo/Garnacho---------Hojlund-Zirkzee?----------Garnacho/Rashford
I agree. Squad is for me definitely a top 4 squad in the league, after city, Arsenal and Liverpool.
Good post OP!
I agree, I think this is best squad post Fergie. It seems like we have some depth in most positions now which I can't recall the last time we had. It is early to say but I can't remember the last time I felt United actually had what seems can be a solid set up post Fergie.
I really hope the squad can settle and click together very soon, though! It all comes down to results.
I agree, I think this is best squad post Fergie. It seems like we have some depth in most positions now which I can't recall the last time we had. It is early to say but I can't remember the last time I felt United actually had what seems can be a solid set up post Fergie.
I really hope the squad can settle and click together very soon, though! It all comes down to results.
Would agree with this. We have hadpoor options in defence fromhe bench all heway back to Pique leaving, sothat looks stronger now. The midfield looks reasonable on paper and am interested to see what Ugarte adds as so far not sure onsistently I actually like Mainoo and Fernandes in the same midfield but they have had a poor third option all last season.....As for the attack, despite a lot of talent there isnt a single player amongst them yet that has proven to bea nailed on first eleven starter.
We have a squad that can come top four, at a stretch third...butnot saying ha with confidence we could still finish outside the top six too. I would be happy if you told me how the window would end at the startof it....but itsa 7/10 window....the dream window had 4/5more leaving (big names mainly too) and two big attacking additions, so its a verygood window, not a fantasti one though....but that is progression from the very dissapointing windows nearly every season for me the last decade so not complaining
The midfield is still suspect, and only one or two injuries away from being useless against the likes of Arsenal or even Brighton. Plus we are going to be heavily reliant on Kobbie in that department.
Add ETH to the mix and one can`t be certain of anything.
I`d take a 4th place finish right now, but a more realistic outcome is 5th or 6th
Add ETH to the mix and one can`t be certain of anything.
I`d take a 4th place finish right now, but a more realistic outcome is 5th or 6th
But the squad is still pretty average
Well, well, well.. just wait and see how a sample size of three will be enough for fans calling for Ten Hag being sacked.
And than we will get new manager who eill need time till transfer window, get new players and as I said rinse and repeat...
Haha
Let's see if this guy is right end of season. Seems pretty spot on so far.
Ha, thanks mate.
I feel we have too many average attackers in the squad. It would good to sell some and make two quality additions.
Antony, Rashford, Mount and Zirkzee should be all moved on. Then we need to add a class striker and a class AM/Wide hybrid.
Antony, Rashford, Mount and Zirkzee should be all moved on. Then we need to add a class striker and a class AM/Wide hybrid.
Bruno/Amad AM/Garnacho
Striker/Hojlund
Striker/Hojlund
So squad with Amorim here now, I see the profiles per position like this:
Pretty standard here, Onana is a quality ball playing goalkeeper.
RCB - Yoro, Lindelof... Dalot or Mazraoui potentially?
Needs to have some speed where they can cover the wide areas, need some ball playing ability to help the build up.
CB - De Ligt, Maguire, Evans
The more physically dominant CB, will be protected speed wise from the outer center backs.
LCB - Martinez, Shaw
Similar to RCB, just for the left side
RM - Dalot, Mazraoui... Garnacho?
Needs the ability to get up and down all day, hold width. In easier games, could be more of a winger like Garnacho, but generally (given fitness and general form/ability) I'd imagine it'll just be one of Mazraoui or Dalot.
BWM - Ugarte, Casemiro
Ball winning mid, there to get around the pitch and do the dirty work. I think Ugarte will play for as long as he is fit/not suspended.
DLP - Casemiro, Bruno, Eriksen, Mainoo
More conservative deep passer, needs to hold down that area next to his midfield partner, passing probably more important than dribbling so I'm not actually sure that this is where Mainoo will get most of his minutes. Could see Bruno getting plenty of time here to be honest.
LM - Amad, Shaw, Malacia, Dalot/Mazraoui, Antony
Similar to RM, except our options are a huge question mark. Amad the only left footer who can stay fit apart from Antony who is very shit, but I see him more for the attacking areas. Shaw at this point is probably more of a LCB and not the LM given he's lost a lot of pace with his constant injuries. Malacia I don't even know what type of player he'll be after basically 2 years out. So that leaves just Dalot/Mazraoui, which would probably be Dalot given he played a season on loan at Milan here. Would be nice to have someone like Pedro Neto here, we really need a left footer for this for it to work naturally.
RAM/LAM - Amad, Bruno, Mainoo, Garnacho, Mount, Zirkzee
Floating playmakers, the more that I've seen from them the less they are wingers at all, and more need to pick up the pockets of space and have press resistance, capable of playing in small spaces, and work hard all game. To me... that just screams Amad and Mainoo. Garnacho and Mount also capable of it, though Mount is always injured and Garnacho is not as natural at it. Bruno will likely play the role plenty but he's not perfectly suited to it given he isn't press resistant or good in tight spaces. Zirkzee here too because he's not a poacher type striker at all, but hard to see his fit.
ST - Hojlund, Rashford
Need a striker to play on the shoulder of the defence and just stretch the opponents all game. Obviously a problem for us constantly and I suspect it'll continue to be. If I had to bet, I'd guess that Rashford will win this battle in the short term as he has history with the new manager boost and he might actually be used correctly (not a playmaker at all, just tell him to make the runs in behind all game), and Hojlund really has been poor. But long term, still some hope that maybe Hojlund can turn into something like Gyokeres, or we just go and buy Gyokeres.
A lineup I'd really like to see and think it could have us playing some great stuff under Amorim would be:
GK
RCB CB LCB
RM BWM DLP LM
RAM LAM
ST
GK - Onana, AltayRCB CB LCB
RM BWM DLP LM
RAM LAM
ST
Pretty standard here, Onana is a quality ball playing goalkeeper.
RCB - Yoro, Lindelof... Dalot or Mazraoui potentially?
Needs to have some speed where they can cover the wide areas, need some ball playing ability to help the build up.
CB - De Ligt, Maguire, Evans
The more physically dominant CB, will be protected speed wise from the outer center backs.
LCB - Martinez, Shaw
Similar to RCB, just for the left side
RM - Dalot, Mazraoui... Garnacho?
Needs the ability to get up and down all day, hold width. In easier games, could be more of a winger like Garnacho, but generally (given fitness and general form/ability) I'd imagine it'll just be one of Mazraoui or Dalot.
BWM - Ugarte, Casemiro
Ball winning mid, there to get around the pitch and do the dirty work. I think Ugarte will play for as long as he is fit/not suspended.
DLP - Casemiro, Bruno, Eriksen, Mainoo
More conservative deep passer, needs to hold down that area next to his midfield partner, passing probably more important than dribbling so I'm not actually sure that this is where Mainoo will get most of his minutes. Could see Bruno getting plenty of time here to be honest.
LM - Amad, Shaw, Malacia, Dalot/Mazraoui, Antony
Similar to RM, except our options are a huge question mark. Amad the only left footer who can stay fit apart from Antony who is very shit, but I see him more for the attacking areas. Shaw at this point is probably more of a LCB and not the LM given he's lost a lot of pace with his constant injuries. Malacia I don't even know what type of player he'll be after basically 2 years out. So that leaves just Dalot/Mazraoui, which would probably be Dalot given he played a season on loan at Milan here. Would be nice to have someone like Pedro Neto here, we really need a left footer for this for it to work naturally.
RAM/LAM - Amad, Bruno, Mainoo, Garnacho, Mount, Zirkzee
Floating playmakers, the more that I've seen from them the less they are wingers at all, and more need to pick up the pockets of space and have press resistance, capable of playing in small spaces, and work hard all game. To me... that just screams Amad and Mainoo. Garnacho and Mount also capable of it, though Mount is always injured and Garnacho is not as natural at it. Bruno will likely play the role plenty but he's not perfectly suited to it given he isn't press resistant or good in tight spaces. Zirkzee here too because he's not a poacher type striker at all, but hard to see his fit.
ST - Hojlund, Rashford
Need a striker to play on the shoulder of the defence and just stretch the opponents all game. Obviously a problem for us constantly and I suspect it'll continue to be. If I had to bet, I'd guess that Rashford will win this battle in the short term as he has history with the new manager boost and he might actually be used correctly (not a playmaker at all, just tell him to make the runs in behind all game), and Hojlund really has been poor. But long term, still some hope that maybe Hojlund can turn into something like Gyokeres, or we just go and buy Gyokeres.
A lineup I'd really like to see and think it could have us playing some great stuff under Amorim would be:
Onana
Yoro - De Ligt - Martinez
Mazraoui - Ugarte - Bruno - Dalot
Amad - Mainoo
Rashford
Yoro - De Ligt - Martinez
Mazraoui - Ugarte - Bruno - Dalot
Amad - Mainoo
Rashford
Good breakdown but Amorim plays inverted wing backs at Sporting so can't see both sides being on their dominant footed side. Garnacho for instance more likely to play LWB than RWB
I wonder if that means we'd see Amad, being left footed, as the left sided AM? Kind of feel we'll be making our usual mistakes if he lines up with two right footers as LWB and the LAM + Amad got his assist, albeit it was quite a simple pass to Bruno, from that area.