Completely different thing. Rate a defender relative to the forwards they faced in their day, fair enough. Assume a defender who never played anything but deep will suddenly work out the modern offside trap and I'm calling it bollocks. Of course I am. Completely unproven, much more viable to assume Rivelino can play as a winger.
WC All-time All-Stars QF4: Anto vs Theon
- Thread starter Polaroid
- Start date
Completely different thing. Rate a defender relative to the forwards they faced in their day, fair enough. Assume a defender who never played anything but deep will suddenly work out the modern offside trap and I'm calling it bollocks. Of course I am. Completely unproven, much more viable to assume Rivelino can play as a winger.
Fair enough, I am not stopping you are anyone else to consider that.
I won't, personally as I've explained many times. That discussion doesn't belong in a draft and doesn't make a bit of sense as it is endless.
Really have to go, but I repeat:
- Bozsik and Junior dictating from deep,
- Romario keeping the defence pegged back
- Ghiggia and Czibor stretching the field
- and Laudrup, Neeskens and Puskas operating between the lines
- little support from attacking players stuck in midfield and wondering what sort of fecked up game they are involved in
Same here. It's not like I fell in love with Theon's team in an instant, but at least I see it getting the result.
Yups, with that flawless logic whereby four players who scored in a World Cup Final + Laudrup and Romario = can't score.
You can't predict if they will score or not using logic like that, man. That seems worse than the mindless individual comparisons.
Just want to point out that the formation Antohan is using is perfectly viable and plenty of teams has kept clean-sheets using it - even if of course it will lead to more goals back and forth. The following World-Cup Brazil won the FInal with it . Santos-Bellini-Santos were the defenders of the tournament for their displays.
The unusual roles are in the defensive midfield - they aren't regular modern defensive midfielders most often. They were much more prone to having their greatest assets defensively rather than in the offense.
The real topic that should be discussed is if Neeskens/Bozsik are the players to fulfill this role. Slating the formation as a whole is a bit juvenile considering the records it has broken and titles it has been won with it. It is about the players in the formation, can they make it work? Why? Why not?
The unusual roles are in the defensive midfield - they aren't regular modern defensive midfielders most often. They were much more prone to having their greatest assets defensively rather than in the offense.
The real topic that should be discussed is if Neeskens/Bozsik are the players to fulfill this role. Slating the formation as a whole is a bit juvenile considering the records it has broken and titles it has been won with it. It is about the players in the formation, can they make it work? Why? Why not?
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@antohan
I don't think there is criticism against your tactics/formation, but more like curiosity to understand how it works...so you get to face more questions than a relatively standard Theon's team. Forget the game and players for now, a question on your formation.
1) The Magyars under Bukovi and subsequently Sebes employed the WW, which in essence is a 2-3-2-3 formation that can easily morph inot a 2-3-1-4 when attacking and back to normal when not in possession. Now isn't your formation above in reverse, i.e. 3-2-3-2 or a MM? I did check, despite the theory, they did play MM it seems! Strange.
2) Again the change from WM to WW occured because Magyars were lacking a proper Centre Forward as I understand. But you have a good striker in Romario yet using him as Inside Forward. How effective would that be?
3) At the time Magyars played, the WM was the most common formation with Centre Back's man marking the opponents Centre Forwards. Now Theon's defenders will not be man marking and his line up is much more compact in his half than what Magyar's faced. How effective do you think the WW would be in these situations?
Edit: @Annahnomoss you just beat my post by 2 mins
I don't think there is criticism against your tactics/formation, but more like curiosity to understand how it works...so you get to face more questions than a relatively standard Theon's team. Forget the game and players for now, a question on your formation.
1) The Magyars under Bukovi and subsequently Sebes employed the WW, which in essence is a 2-3-2-3 formation that can easily morph inot a 2-3-1-4 when attacking and back to normal when not in possession. Now isn't your formation above in reverse, i.e. 3-2-3-2 or a MM? I did check, despite the theory, they did play MM it seems! Strange.
2) Again the change from WM to WW occured because Magyars were lacking a proper Centre Forward as I understand. But you have a good striker in Romario yet using him as Inside Forward. How effective would that be?
3) At the time Magyars played, the WM was the most common formation with Centre Back's man marking the opponents Centre Forwards. Now Theon's defenders will not be man marking and his line up is much more compact in his half than what Magyar's faced. How effective do you think the WW would be in these situations?
Edit: @Annahnomoss you just beat my post by 2 mins
Your post added a lot of value though so it isn't like we took the same angle on the issue!
Was Kocsis really an inside Forward?
I've recently read a German football blog entry about the England - Hungary game and that's the starting formation in their opinion.
That's a brilliant visualisation of how I remember all the roles in that side, which leads to my biggest problem here. The midfield. I love Neeskens to bits and admire Laudrup, and they problably can do a job in those roles against most sides, but they aren't perfect here imo. Would much rather have Neeskens in the Laudrup role and someone next to Bozsik who's really comfortable dropping into defense.
Wiki lists him as such and they can't be wrong, can they
Tbf, I dont think their roles can be classified into any single position. If you go by shirt numbers then Hiduguti is the Centre Forward. I think that was a time when shirt numbers dont actually match positions they play (e.g. Hideguti as No.9, but playing AM) and was intentionally interchanged to confuse opposition! Personally I think, they had Puskas and Koscis at 2 corners of the box with Hideguti deeper middle and Czibor/Budai out wide.Have voted for Theon since I am might not be around later. I really admire that anto has tried something different and backed it up with tactics like he usually does. But i think he has just come against a wrong set up here. Against some others it may have worked but Theon is well set. I agree with Aldo mostly about defensive strength of Theon's team. I also agree with what Balu wrote above.
Wiki lists him as such and they can't be wrong, can they
Yeah, I completely agree. Puskas played slightly deeper between the lines while Kocsis more direct towards goals and Hidegkuti played the Sindelar role here from that great Austria team in the 30's. That's another team that often is overlooked and if you look closely at what they did back then, the Magyar tactics aren't that revolutionary anymore
.@Polaroid
There's something wrong with the *Magnificent Magyar tactics explained spoiler in Anto's op. Looks like you redid the formatting for his op though, which is great.
Really enjoyed the read and love @antohan 's idea for the team and the story he tells. I actually can see some of it happening, especially the confusion and the early goal, he definitely should get some credit for the surprise, because after his picks I didn't expect him to play like that.
But here comes the question now, can Theon pull back? I don't like the change to sit deep and counter so soon at halftime. You're in for trouble here, really. You completely loose control of the midfield and Theon's indivdual class upfront is staggering. I'm not sold on either side yet, there's something in both teams that feels wrong for some reason, I can't really name it at the moment. Have to think about it a while. Great effort by Antohan though and really well drafted by Theon.
@Theon
You really got lucky here by missing out on your pre '72 leftbacks. Anto's team would have destroyed your 4222, imo.
There's something wrong with the *Magnificent Magyar tactics explained spoiler in Anto's op. Looks like you redid the formatting for his op though, which is great.
Really enjoyed the read and love @antohan 's idea for the team and the story he tells. I actually can see some of it happening, especially the confusion and the early goal, he definitely should get some credit for the surprise, because after his picks I didn't expect him to play like that.
But here comes the question now, can Theon pull back? I don't like the change to sit deep and counter so soon at halftime. You're in for trouble here, really. You completely loose control of the midfield and Theon's indivdual class upfront is staggering. I'm not sold on either side yet, there's something in both teams that feels wrong for some reason, I can't really name it at the moment. Have to think about it a while. Great effort by Antohan though and really well drafted by Theon.
@Theon
You really got lucky here by missing out on your pre '72 leftbacks. Anto's team would have destroyed your 4222, imo.
This is very interesting, lads - great comments. From my own understanding of the Magic Magyar team Balu definitely has a point. Laudrup plays the Hidegkuti role while Neeskens plays a role that isn't really there in the original Magyar set-up. It would be more in tune with that set-up to use a purely defensive midfielder (the Zakarias role in the original Magyar team).
But that isn't a decisive argument against Anto's tactics as such. It's more than possible to look at his team as a variation on a theme, rather than a sheer replica (with different players in some roles).
But that isn't a decisive argument against Anto's tactics as such. It's more than possible to look at his team as a variation on a theme, rather than a sheer replica (with different players in some roles).
Edited out the problematic spoilers so voters can view directly, hopefully Anto is fine with that
That's true. I'm still playing it out in my head. Figueroa certainly deserves a lot of credit and makes up for that problem to a certain degree and Theon playing without wingers means Anto's fullbacks can defend more narrow than the Hungarian ones in '54 did. It gets more interesting by the minute actually, Anto's formation really is very well suited to play against that 5 man backline.
Now I have to think about how Beckenbauer and Falcao would really do against pressing football, they certainly have the skillset to play through it and the widebacks are a crucial part of bringing the ball forward.
No probs mate, that was the entire point of making a homage side: exploring it, rather than a shouting match on whether they can or can't score.
It has always confused the hell out of me because back home we think of the W or M on the basis of the pitch satrting from the bottom, so I always called it MM, when in fact it is WW. The chart Balu copied and the Magyar tactics explanation (from here, quite an interesting little site: http://library.thinkquest.org/27353/english/formations/form1.html) should be clear enough.
Nope, the point was they lacked the classic big chap who usually acted as centreforward and battered defences and goalies. Romario is nothing like that and his overall play is more in line to how Kocsis played.
It would of course be harder to score as there are more peple defending. Conversely, the Magyar backline faced five forwards/attacking players, and here they are dealing with three (yet can't cope apparently).
Wiki lists him as such and they can't be wrong, can they
The latter is correct. Hidegkuti was a false 9 of sorts. Kocsis didn't play the role of an inside forward, he was the one most committed to staying as the "referencia de área" in the box (Romario here, clearly and to a T).
That's one minor variation I brought about and it indeed has to do with the absence of wingers AND available personnel. With no significant defensive concerns on his flank, Junior is effectively more a left-half than a defender or fullback here. Defensively he is largely targetting Zico and in the attacking phases provides an additonal midfielder to knock the ball about with Boszik and the men in front of them.
That said, Neeskens fully contributes in defensive phases. It would be an odd thing if "the flaw" in the side is having Neeskens instead of Zacharias and relying on Neeskens to play as a complete midfielder and make an impact in the different phases of the game.
Indeed, the stuff this morning since Annah's post is much more what I hoped people would get engaged in. I've never been under any illusion of winning this, just wanted one side with a classic setup and less reliant on usual suspects so people actually try see past the names and discuss accordingly.
Shame I won't be around for much of it though, so you chaps keep it focused on that.
Thanks Pol, the problem was you had now copied my first tactics post which had a few things all over the place. Never mind, I prefer it this way now with the teamsheets spoilered and not the Magyar stuff. That's the only point of this game anyway.
Not that I don't think they'd win it, only Theon's magic square would be less suited to play against this and get anything out of the game. I don't think people really are seeing how difficult it is for Theon to get any sort of grip in the game and how toothless he would be on the break.
I agree. The real question here is whether your very specific tactics - which depend on gaining an early advantage - are to be bought. I need to ponder a bit on that.
Depends on what you call 'on the break' here. Theon certainly won't get anything out of long balls over the top, I agree with that. I struggle to believe you can force him to play those at the moment though.
That Scirea - Carlos - Beckenbauer triangle is a nightmare to press and you need Laudrup and Romario doing a hell of a job in running and defending without the ball against them. That's still what looks so wrong to me in your midfield. Neeskens in that Laudrup role and I might start to believe you could pull it off.
The following is far from perfect, but I hope you get my problem here? I don't know that much about Ghiggia's defensive contribution, he might have brilliant workrate, but tracking prime Roberto Carlos with Beckenbauer making himself available for 1-2s, can't see it working to be honest. When Andrade steps out after Carlos is past Ghiggia you're already lost, it's too late. I basically had the same problem in my game, which lead to my more 'controling pressing' approach with the focus on defensive organisation and intercepting passes rather than winning the ball back high up the pitch all the time. But you can't do that with your players and him having Scirea, Falcao and Beckenbauer here around his penalty area available to bring the ball forward is something else.
Carlos run takes out your entire midfield or you leave Falcao free, which allows him to get the ball forward as well.
I love thinking that game through and how the formations would work against each other, so great job on entertaining me, still struggle to see you win the game.
In my eyes the half-time change is pointless and won't add anything to you Anto. The main reason I'd prefer the Mighty Magyars formation is because Zico/Muller and Baggio would all have huge troubles defensively. Off the ball they will be a weakness that you naturally exploit with such a controlling formation.
The question then is, can the rest of the defensive line handle this and carry team Theon even though the forward trio aren't good enough defensively? It should be an easy question but it really isn't considering Theon's back 7 are absolutely amazing.
Falcao and Beckenbauer is among the best midfield pairings possible. The central midfield three are also among the best possible(Da Guia isn't someone I rate too highly though, the rest are perfect).
So for me the deciding battle will be Ghiggia VS Carlos+Kohler and on the other side Andrade+Da Guia vs Czibor. I am not sure who would win this, if it was just one of the full-backs without support it would be Anto dominating this.
Now it is hard to see any team score because in my eyes the offensive 3 of Theon aren't suited for counter-attacks. The ones to score for Theon would be Beckenbauer/Falcao after the offensive 3 fecked up a counter. Beckenbauer/Falcao had a goal per game in them combined, so it wouldn't be odd for them to get a goal in.
The question then is, can the rest of the defensive line handle this and carry team Theon even though the forward trio aren't good enough defensively? It should be an easy question but it really isn't considering Theon's back 7 are absolutely amazing.
Falcao and Beckenbauer is among the best midfield pairings possible. The central midfield three are also among the best possible(Da Guia isn't someone I rate too highly though, the rest are perfect).
So for me the deciding battle will be Ghiggia VS Carlos+Kohler and on the other side Andrade+Da Guia vs Czibor. I am not sure who would win this, if it was just one of the full-backs without support it would be Anto dominating this.
Now it is hard to see any team score because in my eyes the offensive 3 of Theon aren't suited for counter-attacks. The ones to score for Theon would be Beckenbauer/Falcao after the offensive 3 fecked up a counter. Beckenbauer/Falcao had a goal per game in them combined, so it wouldn't be odd for them to get a goal in.
I agree with Balu, if Neeskens was in the Laudrup role and you had a DM more defensive than Bozcik then I would have voted already for you.
Two well drafted teams with players faithful both to their strengths and World Cup roles. As is the case with any talent-laden, top-heavy set-up, Antohan would be unplayable much of the time, but get picked off by a pragmatic, defensively robust unit like Theon's. Fundamentally I see too much strain placed on Junior and R. Andrade here: it's a massive ask for them to defend as a tight three but also protect the flanks to some degree given how high Czibor and Ghiggia are on the park. There are only a small handful of defenders who could pull that job off - Maldini, Krol, Santos and Thuram are the ones that come to mind. And even then it's a hell of a task. For instance, an early ball out to Baggio, he drops the shoulder and dips inside Andrade (how many times did he do that in '90 and '94?) and it's chaos for Figueroa to deal with.
The Puskas, Romario and Laudrup (who is under-rated in this draft) axis would be fantastic to watch and get a couple of goals, even against as outstanding a defence as Theon possesses. But there is far too much vulnerability on the counter for my liking. Theon has very few if any weaknesses now. Carlos is freed up to be the blistering flank-dominator he was in '02. The switch from 4-2-2-2 has made all the difference.
The Puskas, Romario and Laudrup (who is under-rated in this draft) axis would be fantastic to watch and get a couple of goals, even against as outstanding a defence as Theon possesses. But there is far too much vulnerability on the counter for my liking. Theon has very few if any weaknesses now. Carlos is freed up to be the blistering flank-dominator he was in '02. The switch from 4-2-2-2 has made all the difference.
Okay folks, having a bit of lunch so I'll try and catch up with this thread and respond to anything that has been raised. Had a quick scan and the level of discussion looks top notch
Edit - there really is a lot to get through, some awesome points by Balu and others
Edit - there really is a lot to get through, some awesome points by Balu and others
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1 - I said that you have one centre back, so that is going to cause problems. Obviously there are things you can do to nullify it, Junior and Andrade might tuck in more for example, but I don't think its very convincing.
If you had a back three which really did consist of a left centre back and a right centre back, such as Maldini - Figueroa - Thuram, then I guess it could work somewhat, though personally I still think even that fantastic three would be vulnerable because there is no escaping the fact that instead of wingbacks you have actual wingers.
In terms of defending I think a theme of the game - perhaps the most important one - is your forward players turning around and sprinting back towards their goal. You say you're playing a high press so we know there is huge space in behind, and as soon as that press is beaten - which is bound to happen with talented passers all over the pitch and Scirea instigating attacks from deep - you're going to need to back pedal at a lightening pace.
2 - I disagree - from defence to attack the side has excellent passers/technical footballers, from Scirea to Beckenbauer to Baggio, in all phases of football the players are comfortable on the ball and would have no trouble playing through your press. Falcao for example is a fantastic passer and one of the all-time top two or three playmakers from deep positions, likewise Zico from attacking areas.
The idea that these players will be unable to cope with a press from Romario/Laudrup/Ghiggia/Bozsik etc is ridiculous.
Bit of an anticlimax in voting outcome.
A lot of what antohan is saying is based on one thing, its probably the most important point he makes and you need to accept it for his argument to be pursuasive - that Zico/Muller/Baggio are slow and not capable of taking advantage of highline consisting of just one centre back.
I think its mental.
None of those players have '97 Ronaldo pace but none were slow either. Baggio especially gets consistently underestimated in terms of pace because he has such an elegant, graceful running style - he's not lightning but he's certainly not slow.
Raw pace isn't the only way to beat a defender either, the interchange of passing between Baggio and Zico will be mouthwatering, and Muller will constantly be looking to drop his shoulder and spin in behind Figueroa to latch on to a Zico pass.
The idea that these three can't manage to score a couple of goals against that defence is just not true. They'll pass round it, dribble through it, interchange, play it wide to an on rushing Roberto Carlos.. There is just so many ways this team will score and very little trying to prevent it.
I think its mental.
None of those players have '97 Ronaldo pace but none were slow either. Baggio especially gets consistently underestimated in terms of pace because he has such an elegant, graceful running style - he's not lightning but he's certainly not slow.
Raw pace isn't the only way to beat a defender either, the interchange of passing between Baggio and Zico will be mouthwatering, and Muller will constantly be looking to drop his shoulder and spin in behind Figueroa to latch on to a Zico pass.
The idea that these three can't manage to score a couple of goals against that defence is just not true. They'll pass round it, dribble through it, interchange, play it wide to an on rushing Roberto Carlos.. There is just so many ways this team will score and very little trying to prevent it.
Any feedback lads?
I think Andrade maybe isn't the most natural there, but not sure what else is wrong with it.
Not true.
Beckenbauer played centre mid in both '66 and '70, it was only '74 that he went back to defence. In the early '66 version he was much more attacking which I have mentioned, but in '70 he was a box to box colossus, bossing the game both defensively and in possession.
Nothing is really wrong with it to be honest. You are really unlucky to play a team that focuses hundred percent on dominating the midfield. Usually Falcao/BB would be enough to make it a back and forth battle where your defense would be tighter than the opponents.
If you get a chance to improve it you should go for Ronaldo - counter-attacker who will make the counters count. Also you couldn't be countered with a low defensive line as then Muller is in his ideal game. In my eyes the formation you are playing is more of a counter-attacking team and at best you can force a back and forth styled game on your opponents.
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I think this is a pretty good summary.
His fullbacks can defend more narrow - in fact, they have no choice, they need to otherwise its game over. But two issues come up there,
1) Are they capable enough - This is Junior and Andrade, neither of which are centre backs and its not a natural position for them at all. We're talking about an attack of Baggio/Zico/Muller.. Absolutely top, top drawer, and surely far too much for two players out of position.
2) That leaves space out wide - particulalry for Roberto Carlos who will absolutely thrive getting forward here
I'm always surprised when Beckenbauer in '70 is called a defender, same goes with Schnellinger as leftback. Two out of Schnellinger, Schulz and Fichtel played as the central defender in all games, if I remember correctly. Beckenbauer is even part of that retrospective FIFA allstar team for the tournament in '70 as a defender, makes no sense at all.
Re feedback:
Told you before that I don't really like formations without real width, it's most of the time a waste of available space and with teams full of brilliant players who don't need that much help in what they do, it makes no sense to crowd certain areas. The 532 is significantly better than the 4222, but well not really my favorite. If you stick with it, I think one of your attacking 3 should be a player who loves to drift wide to add another dimension to the attack. Against a team with 2 wide players, your widebacks won't add anything and all of a sudden, your attack isn't that impressive anymore.
One point: I think this is more true for Junior than for Andrade. The latter was by all accounts no mug defensively - and Anto makes a point of this in his write-up too: He is mainly there to provide defensive solidity. You could argue that one might as well replace him with a pure defender/centrehalf, then, but that would hurt the plan, which depends on a certain flexibility on the part of both these players (Junior and Andrade become fullbacks in a more modern sense after Cannavaro comes on).
Nah it's not much to do with names but more the fact that it looks more efficient than entertaining. Sure it has the balance and quality to get results but I am not sure it can play particularly stylish brand of football.
I think you can drop one of the CBs and add another attacking player in there.
I think he's really only talking about long balls over the top like he stated in the op where he called that the achilles heel of the Magyar tactics and I agree with him here. I can't see your attacking players exploiting it. The ball needs to get past Figueroa's brilliant positioning, then your players need to overcome the offside trap, get to the ball before his keeper sweeps it away, then control it and score before one of the defenders (and his fullbacks really are fast) is with your players. Can't see that happening in this game. I think that danger is largely exaggerated in general, even with pre injury Ronaldo in there instead of Müller, I could see him getting away with it.
The point you need to accept to believe Anto would win the game is that your team can't play through his pressing and his team really forces you into longballs. That's what I really can't see. You don't need extreme pace, when you get the ball to your attacking 3 and then run often enough 3vs2 on his defenders. You just pass your way through until Müller scores.
Btw. I hate it if I have to play your team next, boring pragmatic side that destroys entertaining teams, shame on you
. You have my vote though, sorry Antohan.Btw. I hate it if I have to play your team next, boring pragmatic side that destroys entertaining teams, shame on you
I don't think it would be boring. At least, I sincerely hope it wouldn't be - my whole remit when I started was to create an entertaining team like Brazil 1982!I dunno, Brazil 2002 played some good stuff and I think in the middle that foursome of Falcao/Beckenbauer/Zico/Baggio would play some wonderful football - with Müller spearheading the attack.
That midfield is really something Brazil 2002 and Italy 1982 lacked, the ball playing ability of the two CM's is on another level to that of Gilberto/Kleberson and Tardelli/Oriali, it retains the strength in the middle but offers a vast amount more in attack. It really shouldn't be underestimated, as you know better that anyone, Beckenbauer will offer a lot in this set up offensively and he lacks the flair of Falcao who, to an even greater extent, will play some fantastic football.