The system was shit alright, but Martial and Rashford still managed to perform in that system. If your going to attribute Rooney scoring 5? League goals in all 2015 then I frankly don't know where to start
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The system was shit alright, but Martial and Rashford still managed to perform in that system. If your going to attribute Rooney scoring 5? League goals in all 2015 then I frankly don't know where to start
great post. I can take a break from this thread for a bit
great post. I can take a break from this thread for a bit
Yes, I watched pretty much every game, and said he'd been poor whenever he was. I'll dig up the posts if you really want me to.
I also followed a lot of the post-game media coverage, in which you would find articles like:
'Paulo Di Canio Slams Manchester United's 'In Decline' Wayne Rooney'
'Rooney's decline is close to eclipsing Torres'
'Manchester United manager Louis van Gaal gambled on Wayne Rooney – but once over 30 most strikers are on the way down'
'Wayne Rooney is on his way to being burnt out and the Manchester United captain looks as ineffectual as he has ever been'
There are loads more where those came from. This idea that he gets praise no matter how he plays, that he's an untouchable Golden Boy, is lazy, cliched nonsense. It is demonstrably false, and a narrative that is itself part of the anti-Rooney agenda
And as I said, exactly the same could be argued of Fergie circa the release of 'Managing My Life'. But both subsequently re-settled into their roles. However, if the club do decide he's becoming irredeemably detrimental to the prospect of footballing success, they'll boot him out. It's that simple. Until then, i'm going to support him, not bitch and whine over every transgression, real or imagined, current or ancient history.
(Although what I will point out is that both LvG and Hodgson have recently said that it's Rooney's professionalism, his dedication to the team and the role allotted to him, that sets him apart, and have praised him highly for it)
Of course not. Although this thread, over the last 2 years or so, has become an endless torrent of Rooney bashing. That's about 70% what it is. And i'd say it's those who are the most vociferous in criticising him - generally the same few names, over and over again - who are quick to try and shout down any praise or defence of him themselves.
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One was a series of tweets from randomers, one ended with the caveat that LVG let Rooney down, one was talking about the burden being too much because we didn't sign any other strikers and the other was Di Canio saying he's on the decline. Scathing.
Yet before, after and during every match, no matter what happens we are force fed the line he is great. He will a float a ball out to the wing and the commentators will react like he's just shot a stream of pixies out of his arse to put on a magical air display. When he tries the same thing and pumps the ball straight out of play or fails to control a pass they will go quiet or change the subject. It happens time and time again.
And as I said I don't care what other managers or players have done with their contracts or how they behaved. This thread is about Rooney. How can they boot him out when they caved and gave him that massive deal?
LVG also thought that Rooney should be allowed to decide the fate of the kitchen staff and that Marcus Rojo should be allowed on the pitch. He was a stupid, stupid man. If Rooney's so professional then why was it a big story when he turned up for pre-season training actually fit a couple of seasons ago? If he's so dedicated why does it take him so long to get going when he's been out? Why was he refusing to play midfield?
It's the internet. What did you expect? People have opinions and they are going to voice them. So about 70% of this thread is people not liking a man as much as you do, what's the problem? I've not really noticed people trying to shout down praise but maybe I just missed it. I've seen some people exasperated by it because they don't feel he's earned it and it's their right to feel that way.
This entire debate is pointless. My initial post was trying to help the people annoyed by the Rooney "hate" see why a lot of people are so frustrated, I wasn't saying anyone is wrong for feeling different. Yet you got defensive about it. Why? He's a millionaire and we are all strangers on the internet with opinions, he doesn't need protected from it. This isn't a Wayne Rooney universal praise thread, people have opinions negative and positive. If you only want the positive then maybe you should create a Wayne Rooney praise thread. It won't end well, but that's because people have different opinions and they will air them on a forum. Getting annoyed by it isn't good for you. I dunno why people are getting all annoyed at other people thinking differently. If you know who the people are that are always negative and you don't want to read the negativity then block them or don't read their posts. It's not a massive deal and no one is going to change opinion on him over the summer, but people do have a right to not only feel negative towards him, but to express it. Even if it is 70% of this thread, so be it, that's how people feel.
Edit: I dunno what's happened to the font size, but I couldn't be arsed fixing it and I'm leaving it the way it is even if makes me look like I'm Nicolas Cage talking at random volumes.
Okay. So how about:
'Why Roy Hodgson MUST drop Wayne Rooney for England opener'
'Manchester United captain Wayne Rooney branded 'awful' by Roy Keane - is it time to drop him?'
'Wayne Rooney should not start for England'
'England are a quicker, stronger and more athletic side without Wayne Rooney'
And there are yet more waiting to be linked to. He gets criticised and questioned quite regularly. Any argument to the contrary is simply wrong. That's a matter of fact, not a matter of opinion.
I realise you're probably exaggerating for rhetorical effect, but . . . well, Wayne Rooney has actually been a pretty damn good player over the years. And he's capable of very good play even now. Perhaps that's why he gets a degree of respect from commentators. When he does play well, and do something good, he's liable to get praised - and perhaps he plays well a bit more often than some will allow.
And perhaps that's why what praise he does get sounds like ridiculous 'bias'. Because they themselves are the biased ones. And while commentators see a player still capable of moments of real quality - there have been loads of them even this season - they apparently see a donkey who contributes nothing but aimless balls out to the ring wing.
And if Mourinho plays him regularly, no doubt he'll be a 'stupid, stupid' man as well. All these top managers are idiots, and the boo boys are right. If only they could see it.
Yes, and your initial post made at least one blatantly unsupportable accusation, which I have tried to correct.
RVP not winning the league with Fenerbahce proves nothing. Defoe was horrid in the MLS and managed to score 14 goals this season in the Premier League. It's all about the team you're playing in and the way I see it is, RVP had more than enough left in the tank to play at United. People say he had a bad season last season and yet he still managed to get into double figures and score some worldies along the way.
If Rooney not scoring was Van Gaal's fault, then how come Rashford was the solution? He was managed by Van Gaal and he could score.
Face it, Rooney's just fecking past it. That's why England are playing him in CM now. He's officially our Stevie G. Undroppable and accommodated. We'll be playing him in CDM next so the commentators can cream themselves over those wonderful cross-field balls to Valencia on the right wing.
I fear for Jose's job if he sticks by him through thick and thin like Van Gaal did. I want Mourinho to be a success here but it's just not gonna happen if he builds the team around Rooney. And the board never wanted Mourinho here in the first place, so they won't hesitate to kick him out if the results aren't coming in.
Defoe scoring 14 goals proves nothing, each player to it's own, RVP was done with the club as a whole the moment Fergie left so letting him go was good decision.
When did I say he's not past it? It's plain obvious too see and if we want to move forward as a club then Rooney should lose all his privilages and play only if deserves that.
But he's not sole problem that we didn't win the league no matter what you think, that's only reason I've responded for yours 'should've kept RVP, probably would win the league' nonsense.
To be fair, you are both right, the print media are more open to criticising him, especially the past 12 months, but TV pundits, usually ex players almost to a man refuse to do so.
As for the argument that managers know best, usually......yes. But let's not forget successive managers played Gerard and lampard together in a two, many managers played Emile hesky as a forward despite not being able to hit a cows arse with a banjo, several managers managed Chelsea of their own free will despite that meaning being in close proximity to Adolf terry, Gordon strachan signed Ali dia.............
Martial and Rashford have most definitely not put that argument to bed. But the argument in general is in the past and thankfully with the sacking of Van Gaal the argument was put out of it's misery and a lot of the blame (or cohesion issues I would prefer to say) can be forgotten and we can move on to a manager who knows how to coach attacking teams in this environment. For the sake of what the numbers say, they are listed below courtesy of transfermarkt.
at CF: Rashford scored 8 in 18 (all comps). Easily the best return of the three, but don't forget Van Gaal let slip that he was basically "dropped" for not playing the position properly (in his eyes) for the game against Norwich.
at CF: Martial scored 4 in 20 (all comps). Although played out wide left, a much MUCH better position for him proved to be fruitful and basically destroy any hope of Memphis making the starting lineup on the left.
at CF: Rooney scored 9 in 23 (all comps). Not really that dissimilar to Rashford in all honesty.
It was just not a good attacking mix of players last season and coached in an unproductive way, from Moyes to Van Gaal we played 13 different players up front and none bar an 18yo raw Rashford stood out.
My comment was that I was skeptical of Rooney's decline when the timeframe was three years and I flat out disagree with you that it could be as long as six years ago. Six years, 2010, when Rooney was 24. It warrants no further discussion on the matter.
Except Rashord scored goals vs top 6 teams and Rooney didn't. Rashford scored 2 vs Arsenal, 1 vs Cty and 1 vs Wham (FA Cup) and his goals made all the difference in these games. Rooney's goals came mostly against poor teams. Context matters.
Context does matter, if you can't get on the park through injury then you sure as hell won't be scoring goals another guy has the opportunity to score. (Not to mention Van Gaal's non existent policy on player rotation.)
You say Rashford and Rooney had about the same rate as if it's nothing. Why does an 18 year old, who hadn't played a top flight game until 2016 have a better record than Rooney? The captain, highly experienced, undroppable. Surely that should ring some alarm bells. I've not even mentioned the difference in who they scored against.
Look you blamed Rooney's lack of goals on LvG. Yet both Rashford and Martial (not sure why you discounted his goals from LW) given their age and experience found goals pretty easy to come by. How do you explain this?
Well, yes. The manager was sacked come the end of the season and a new one appointed.
Ah you're just dodging now.
I asked why did Rooney struggle so badly to score as a centre forward until January yet Rahford found it relatively easy. One's the captain with massive experience, the other we'd barely heard of. Never had a top flight game. Why doesn't that make you question Rooney's performances?
Rooney fans love to come up with misleading stats and when you explain them that they are misleading, they avoid a proper discussion. Happens all the time on here.
I've explained it before, it was also outlined when @NessunDorma posted on this page.
Ultimately, the archetype CF role in the team for Van Gaal was essentially to stand up front and occupy the CB's and barely touch the ball and not get involved. Hence why I made reference to the comments that Van Gaal made in the wake of the Norwich game on the United website. "You see in the games, Marcus is not doing the things he did in his first match or second match anymore." ie. He's breaking from the archetype system "because he is tired". Which in my opinion was an outright dig at the way Rashford was playing (ie. Not the archetype role). I also think that at 6'1" with a larger frame and youthful speed he was more suited to the hold up role than Rooney (who in all my years of watching him has never looked comfortable playing in the same type of role.)
If you want one player in our squad to play the archetype role in both performance and in terms of all-round professionalism then you would look no further than Rooney. If you tell him to drink the kool-aid, he drinks it right up, including standing about up front doing sweet nothing for the first half of the season. This is probably why I am happy to let Mourinho sort him out and I feel comfortable with the feeling of how I think he will use Rooney and I am not particularly worried. I never thought Van Gaal's type of football would work in England, I am not surprised it ended with so few chances created, shots created and ultimately goals scored.
I am happy for a manager who has won the league in this country multiple times recently with a style of football not to dissimilar to Sir Alex Ferguson's to give him one last shot before we get rid of him.
Honestly the lengths you guys go to in order to avoid saying he just didn't play well.
Two kids, one playing left wing, one who didn't make a competitive appearance till 2016 both outscored Rooney. Rooney the highly experienced, undroppable, captain. All three playing for the same manager under the same tactics. You still don't question Rooney at all, instead you blame LvG. It's just baffling.
I've not mentioned anything about how he played, because that wasn't the original discussion. The original discussion was that it is a team game and when you look deeper into the nuts and bolts of the system and how players were performing as individuals then there is a strong case that no forward under Van Gaal was able to score consistently because the amount of chances were low, this figure didn't magically rise with any particular player to a level that the data suggested the way the team was coached wasn't a major impact. (Hence me refuting that the claim had been put to bed with the stats.)
It seems the goalposts have now shifted to you wanting me to come out and say Rooney is shite and agree with you. But I do not, if you would like me totell you he didn't play well then fine, he didn't really play well. I don't really think he was here nor there and certainly not as bad as it was made out on here and generally accepted as gospel by many. I was never really expecting much from him because expecting a 5'8" forward who excels with the ball at his feet and facing goal was never going to do much playing with his back to goal as a hold-up forward. Even Martial struggled and was moved to the left where he was much better with the ball facing goal and he could use his pace and dribbling ability to create from the left. (Whether it was natural selection or evolution is an entirely different argument).
Two kids? Or one kid? As far as I am aware, Martial lead all scorers with 18 in all competitions. Rooney's 15 goals was higher than Rashfords 6. Maybe it isn't just the Rooney fans that come up with misleading stats eh? I think we can all agree that Van Gaal is done and dusted and lets see what Mourinho can and will do with him, there were signs of flickering life at the back end of the season and have been signs through the Euro's so far. I'll trust the coach and his decisions over the vociferous baying for his blood from the fans. But that is just my two pennies.
As always when you have zero to offer to the argument. I think most fair minded people would say 2009/10 was the last season Rooney was excellent and one of the genuine elite players and strikers in Europe from start to finish. Although the WC in S.Africa seemed to be the turning point. Anyone saying he's been favourably compared to Europes best strikers since then is just wearing their rose-tinted glasses. He hasn't had that recognition in a long, long time.
He of course has had good moments since, perhaps even some of his best matches in isolation and goals, but taking entire seasons into consideration you see an undependable striker for a top side. Ferguson knew what was up towards the end.
Just to clarify something: I'm not saying I think Rooney has been shite since 2010. I'm saying since 2010 I have seen a gradual decline in his average performance - which believe it or not is usually an indicator of a players genuine worth. I think as a combination of his physical strengths diminishing and certainly since Ferguson left, a real lack of accountability for his performances.
Only in the last couple of seasons have I seen a rapid deterioration in his 'bottom' performances - to an extent he wouldn't look out of place in the Championship at times.
I would bold this entire post but the part that I did frames it rather well.
"vociferous baying for his blood"
I just asked does two young, highly inexperienced players producing a better scoring rate not alarm you.
Your argument is that LvG's penchant for asking his striker to occupy the centre backs and hold the ball up suits the younger lads better. That you can't expect anything of Rooney under such instruction.
Mate that's a big part of any No.9's job. It was the same under SAF, it'll be the same under Mourinho. It's like saying a keeper shouldn't be expected to deal with high balls.
It's not that LvG's tactics suited the pace and agility of the younger lads. Football in general suits those attributes.
I'm outrageously going to write even more about Rooney's performances. He played yesterday for 40 mins against Slovakia.
I thought he was less effective in a role higher up and more to the left than in the last two games. He struggled more with connecting the forward passes to teammaates, though it should be mentioned that Slovakia sat tight against an England resting players, and the same went for all of his fellow coubtrymen with Sturridge a notable exception on a few occasions. I thought Rooney increased the intensity and ball tempo after he came in, and improved the corners, without it being enough to open up a disciplined Slovakia clearly content with a draw.
A typical 6 of 10 performance, probably the best performer in midfield on the night, though Dier could also get that accolade considering his tasks.
I thought he was less effective in a role higher up and more to the left than in the last two games. He struggled more with connecting the forward passes to teammaates, though it should be mentioned that Slovakia sat tight against an England resting players, and the same went for all of his fellow coubtrymen with Sturridge a notable exception on a few occasions. I thought Rooney increased the intensity and ball tempo after he came in, and improved the corners, without it being enough to open up a disciplined Slovakia clearly content with a draw.
A typical 6 of 10 performance, probably the best performer in midfield on the night, though Dier could also get that accolade considering his tasks.
Dier was man of the match by a landslide.
Considering his meagre attacking contribution/role against a deep-sitting Slovakia, I think landslide is excessive, but I won't dispute your MoM call.
(Btw I commend you on commenting the actual game at hand, although it wasn't actually about Wayne Rooney's performance. ...
)You did and I answered that. No, the manager was not coaching the attack correctly as a whole unit. I have more (full) trust in Mourinho to sort that out and that caveat goes to many of the players in our squad in various positions. I share a similar stance on had Van Gaal stayed and Rooney would be played as a striker and not behind the front striker I would have just said get rid, there is no point. LVG's coaching does not suit a player like Rooney playing at 9.
That is why I have tried to segregate Rooney's versatility to the role that LVG was asking him (and many, 12 different strikers), it ties into my understanding that asking a guy who rarely played as a hold up striker and is 5'8" doesn't suit tactics that don't allow for him to flourish. I don't agree it was the same under SAF, SAF rarely had his forwards facing the ball and not occupying either various roles for their versatility or having them drop off and face goal a lot more which suits Rooney a lot more. (Something LVG was happy to flat out drop players for.)
I don't think it will be the same under Mourinho either, but I have gone over that. I think Rooney will play behind the front striker and will get much more active support in Mourinho's system than any player ever received for Van Gaal. I reiterate that I am just happy that the type of football we played under LVG is now gone, wipe the slate clean and see what Mourinho does.
Please, please don't let us go into the season with him in the starting lineup!
Why he has played ok in cm this tournament I think he has done well
What are you talking about? It's not his fault that Iceland are pressing him and exposing his lack of agility when in tight areas, it's their fault for not allowing him just to stroll around playing passes.
I don't have the energy to criticise him anymore.
I dont think there is a palyer in the history of football who would come from being one of the best and most exciting footballers in the world to one of the worst in the league. He's absolutely pointless, he has no skills to play as midfielder and that is one of the last possible positions for him to play as his pace is all gone either.. I say it again he needs to go, I cant stand him on the pitch, he will destroy another season
I thought he had done alright in the first half. Then again when England are losing it does tend to be put on Rooneys shoulders.
How dare they...
Midfield general, laughable that people actually rate him as a midfielder. Scholes back from retirement would be better.
its Iceland
How dare I suggest that Rooney isn't at the heart of the loss, when he scored and Hart has done the biggest howler of the tournament so far.
Nah his biggest competition has been Hart and Walker
Don't indulge @Dec9003 attempts to distract from his performance. Nobody's blaming Rooney for the entire team performance, others have been equally as poor.
What I can't believe is how placid he is these days. Of course as he got older you'd expect some maturity, for him to calm down. Not to this extent though. He's gone to far the other way. He and the team need some bite and aggression. Right now he makes Carrick look like a hothead.
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Those people who think he has done alright as a CM should at least explain why England's movement/rotation of the ball and passing out of midfield have been so poor at this tournament.
Exactly.
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