Yeah he is an over the hill, overrated and overpaid captain of a has been, stuck in the past club that is only good for one thing: getting overpaid in sponsorship deals
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I hope this isn't the wrong thread for this, but how many goals is he missing for the all time record?
I think around 10? if he doesn't do it this year means he will defo be here next season
What a player gets paid is based on negotiations, when the contract is renewed, back-up players available, commercial worth, where he intends to go if sold etc. I hate to bring this point in, but his commercial worth for us is much more than any of the players you have mentioned and hence he is still cheaper if you take that into account. Criticize the performance by all means but a salary is not a yardstick for a performance.
Just read that. Will shamelessly use more often.Okay and who deserves praise for this season apart from De Gea, Martial and may be Smalling to some extent? So if our team is performing badly match after match, the average performance will stick out as better ones and the player performance thread is relative to the the performance of others.
I am not saying he is, all I am saying is that salary is a boring argument. E.g. if Man Utd come out and say Rooney's commercial worth to the club is around 10M per year and his net salary is around 50K per week, would it make his performances look better? No.
Fair point but he is playing for us now and until he is sold at least I would try and be objective. Also worth keeping in mind that we have been no better when he has not played, so the solution for what is 'best for the club' is not as simple.
Also different managers, different ex players, different commentators and different football experts do not share as negative a view of him as is mentioned here regularly. That's what I meant by being objective. There are lot of critical articles about him in the press regularly, but none beats even a single page of this mega thread. If nothing else changes and we just replace Rooney with a supposedly better forward, some people's happiness may be short lived. We need a very good striker but we have also been devoid of ideas, creative sparks, pace, lack of purpose, lack of width etc. in our play. A player's current performance is bound to be impacted by the constraints we play under.
When did I mention that any other players deserve praise? You are correct in saying that almost every player has been average at best, but if you think that exonerates Rooney then you are wrong. He is our highest earner, our captain and he has been absolutely abysmal.
He has been a hit or miss player for years now, but even when he went on a poor streak you still expected him to turn it around whereas now I honestly think he's finished.
I'd love to be wrong as when he's even half the player he was he's great, but I just don't see him turning it round at this stage in his career.
I'm grateful for what he has done.
Unfortunately, he's half of the player he was. Maybe he can be useful for us but not as our main striker. To be honest, I can't see him going in the summer. We need a new striker, however, I think is probable that he will stay.
I hope that the remaining of the season he can be in a good form and be an important player for us again (same with Memphis). If he stays, where do you think it could be his best position? CM? No.10?
Unfortunately, he's half of the player he was. Maybe he can be useful for us but not as our main striker. To be honest, I can't see him going in the summer. We need a new striker, however, I think is probable that he will stay.
I hope that the remaining of the season he can be in a good form and be an important player for us again (same with Memphis). If he stays, where do you think it could be his best position? CM? No.10?
That is not the point. You said 300k/week will only get us a couple of decent strikers. I only pointed out that is not true. Now you talk about Rooney's commercial value being more important to us than the top quality strikers available. It is quite funny you ask people not to point to his salary but then point to his importance to us in terms of commercial worth while trying to somehow justify his value to us in a business sense and then again go back to saying let us not point to his salary. Surely you can see the irony in that.
All well and good as an argument, but in Rooney's case it becomes more of a problem for some because he is supposed to be earning X amount per week. If we take that X out of the argument it allows us to be more objective.
It would be foolish for us to think that a player's salary (and any transfer budget) is only reflective of their perceived quality as a football player. If we sign Bale for 80m, for example, on a salary of 300k per week and lets say Abubameyang for 40M on 150K per week, in my opinion our decision-makes are not hinting that he needs to be twice as good (not even sure how you will measure it). When we analyze performance it has to be based on the football, not on some salary numbers that are not even in public domain and even if accurate do not contain the whole story (commercial worth, sponsor's interest etc). Based on the football, we have a lot of average performers in the squad right now and it may also hint that the problem is lies somewhere deeper. Hernandez, who we couldn't even get rid of easily, has been named the player of the month twice in a row in Bundesliga. A player's performance cannot be independent of the rest of the squad, the system, the manager's 'philosophy' etc. etc. and changing players may not bring about the quick change that we all want to see. Right now, based on how average our squad looks and how unsuited our system of play, a player scoring winning goal in game (when wins are almost a rarity) deserves some credit even if temporarily.
I agree we need a better striker than Rooney and whatever he does this season (bar a miracle) is unlikely to change that opinion. But even if its a unanimous given, I hope it doesn't mean that this thread should be closed now.
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May be it came across incorrectly, but I didn't mean two strikers but more like two forwards players (covering number 10, 9 and wide players) who will not be in the absolute first-11 of any top 10 club but good squad players for them.
Also I didn't bring in commercial worth to say that his average performance is justified. All I am saying is that a performance should be judged independent of the salary (and other commercial elements). If you do bring salary just keep in mind that there are other commercial factors you may be ignoring which should also be taken into account. I am only going against the arguments similar to- 'Rooney is earning 250k while X player is earning only 100k' so he deserves more stick for the same performance by two players.
It has the perfect effect/combo of niceness whilst having a little dig.
I did mention quite a few players who are currently far, far better than Rooney and maybe on half his salary. So this notion which you put forth that 300k/week only gets you 2 "decent" options up front is not correct.
FWIW: Rooney's agent, when describing the deal Rooney has, implied that a large portion of it was performance based and locked into his image rights which are now owned and handled by United's PR team.
So it's not like we're paying him £300k cash per week. He gets a base salary and then we pay him performance related bonuses (not going to be paying much there over the last couple of seasons) and we give him a cut of the money we generate through his image rights.
No, Rooney has the same wage than previously but according to the market he could earn up to 300k, one of the problem with Rooney is that he doesn't have a big sponsor portfolio, so the United PR team proposed to help him develop his brand. What Rooney really gained from his extension was the unsual length for a player of his age.
So.... Yes then?
Could well be. I am not too sure what provisions or stipulations are there in his contract. I would assume that many players have similar clauses in their contracts, where they get bonus payouts depending on where the team finishes in the PL and CL. If that is the case, I think we can replace Rooney with two absolutely top drawer players without having to spend significantly higher in wages.
They do but it's not linked to the 300k that every tabloids used, according to forbes it was only a suggestion made to Rooney by Woodward and Arnold, based on the difference between Rooney's marketing earnings and his image in Sport and Football.
Rooney doesn't have big contracts, mainly because he is not glamorous and can't land the fashion contracts.
http://www.sportspromedia.com/notes...nd_wayne_rooneys_ground_breaking_new_contract
A bit more information into Rooney's deal and how most contracts are structured.
Which I am assuming we have tried obviously last summer. We tried absolute top drawer lewa, muller, bale, ronaldo etc and also players like kane, mane, pogba, benzema etc. At least some of this must have been true, if we go by rumours. LVG plan-A could not have been Rooney as striker with untested Martial/Wilson as back-up, and even if it was the plan it is not Rooney's fault if misplaced confidence was placed in him (specially when we were going to play CL as well). But unfortunately because of various reasons it is not just simply just a matter of putting money on the table. Multiple reasons - we are not the club players aspire to play for over other top clubs, foreign players prefer London, other players are well take care of by their current clubs or not at the end of their contract. PL has lot of money and even clubs like Southampton can easily fend off advances from top clubs, if they are interested (not all the time though). So while I think it's hard to argue against the fact that we should have replaced Rooney (or at least added to the squad) two top players in forwards roles, we couldn't get them.
If Rooney is costing us 13m per year in salary, I am sure that is puny amount for the club and we didn't back out of any potential deals just because of that 13 million. We in fact paid 35 million (which can go up to 57 million based on bonuses) for a young and untested Martial and we would probably have paid much more to any top-drawer player. The point is that the salary is only one factor. Shweinsteiger is getting 200k per week but no one says that he should be playing better than Shneiderlin because he is earning twice. We all take other things into account other things (his age, his transfer price, wages etc.). And mind Shweinsteiger is on a 3 year deal which is only one year less than what we offer even to young players.
Very informative, thanks.
I wonder what is the impact of his wage on the locker room and on the negotiations with potential targets. Some players will think that they are better than him and therefore deserves bigger contracts.
And who can blame them, but once we give the tea lady or a cone a six figure salary where does it end?
Rooney reminds me of late Heskey without all the ridicule. Except for red cafe which is his unsafe space.
So now we are thinking of imaginary problems created by Rooney's salary to score a point. I have not seen one report suggesting the same and former players, if anything, have only mentioned of his positive influence in the locker-room. It would not be difficult for the press to get a hint if it was an issue.
All the top-drawer players we have targeted would have easily got a great salary package similar to Rooney's if the deals materialized. When we are routinely linked with 60 to 80 million figures for transfer of established players (most of who are not young and will no way fetch us anywhere even close to the transfer amount past the 4 year contract) we are already budgeting for 15 to 20 million of transfer budget amortization per year over an above the salary. I am sure the salary has not been a constraint for the right player. Also any potential transfer, assuming that they are only interested in getting the most money for them, will only be comparing our offer to what they are getting elsewhere (not to a figure that we might be paying to another player who by the way has been with us for 12 years and is near being the all time top scorer for us). So tomorrow if Pogba says I want 300k becasue Shweinsteiger is earning 200k, I am sure the caf will only blame Shweinsteiger for not fking off and giving us the chance to hire Pogba at 200k (also by the way completely ignoring the huge transfer price we will be paying to get a player like Pogba).
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Calm down, I'm not trying to score points. I'm not against Rooney and I don't care much about his wage, I don't think that I have ever used it against him.
In fact I liked your post and think that you are right.
No worries. I easily see the point when someone says Rooney is not playing well its just that I don't see the point of bringing the salary into the mix and then somehow expecting that because of the high salary he should be playing better than others. Also the last two games should have got him some credit but the caf is really stingy and it seems that everyone almost rejoices when Rooney doesn't score because it supports their argument even though we need all the goals we can find. Yes the performances should be much better, but at least scoring goals is better than not scoring (specially the match winning goals) and as a striker you mainly live by the goals you score.
Honestly quite surprising. Could make it 5 if he manages to score in the Europa League.
Ballon D'Or 2015 vote:
1) Messi
2) Muller
3) Ronaldo
Stabbed Ronny in the back with a political vote. It's a sign. He knows he's the victim when Cristiano arrives.
(@SirAF)
1) Messi
2) Muller
3) Ronaldo
Stabbed Ronny in the back with a political vote. It's a sign. He knows he's the victim when Cristiano arrives.
(@SirAF)
His coach of the year voting was more interesting:
1 Mourinho 2 Guardiola 3 Sampaoli
1 Mourinho 2 Guardiola 3 Sampaoli
Was just coming to post that, that 3rd vote is super interesting.
He deserves to be criticised based on his salary as well, considering he held us to ransom to get what he is earning, twice. He has not deserved his earnings. If the club had paid him £300k voluntarily, its a different matter. He knew what he was getting in to when he forced our hands, he should deal with it.
Him being a commercial cow for us is not a great argument. Manchester United made him who he is today. It's not because he is the biggest name but because we have the biggest name. We are the ones that took the massive risk and paid crazy amounts for a teenager, helped him to pocket millions through other revenues, gave him a platform to be a big name. It's fair that we get to benefit from this association that we have provided him, don't you think?
If his wages will make it difficult for us to accommodate bigger and better names I want Rooney gone out of the club.
Can you imagine negotiations from now on for every young maverick thinking of joining united? "So that big lump upfront gets £300k a week? talk to me Ed.."
Didnt his agent come out and say that his contract wasnt actually that high (its still in the 200k range) in terms of wages. But it had the potential to go to 300k depending on Rooney's brand value to United. Basically if Rooney the brand does well, he gets paid more. Which seems fair to me.
Off course you then ask yourself, is he worth 200k a week?
He isnt.
Off course you then ask yourself, is he worth 200k a week?
He isnt.
I fail to understand, how is it ransom. If we didn't want to pay what he wanted we could easily have sold him, Chelsea were willing to pay in the region of 50M. Every player negotiates for the wages and you roughly get what you deserve after taking all the crucial factors into account (quality of player, availability of back-up, ability to play in multiple positions, commercial worth to the club, age profile, positon they play in, do they have other offers etc etc). BFS is getting 200k, surely we just turned up at his door and said 'is 200k enough or you want more?'. Mata is getting in the region of 150k, Young was signed in 2011 for around 110K. Every single player is on the wages they don't deserve.
Just to correct when we signed Rooney, there was hardly any risk and he was already identified as one of the biggest potential in England. We had paid an even bigger amount for a defender two years back, so it wasn't something of a rarity. Also like Rooney we gave a platform to Ronaldo and so many other players, and I am sure they are loyally paying all their commercial revenues to us!! Lets come out of the imaginary world where every player should just consider himself lucky to even get a chance to play for us. The first destination of all the good players is the clubs higher than us in the pecking order (at least 5), and almost all of them can and do pay even higher than us. But yeah we are united, so they should come and accept whatever we offer.
Its just unfortunate to see people creaming over players who don't even want to come here, and even if they do it will be for an even bigger 'ransom' and still this overwhelming hate towards one of our own players. If you even so far as put in a mildly positive line after two match winning goals, you get slated. There was hardly any positive from the match apart from the penalty and the goal. No player stood out. Even De Gea was quiet. Converting a 93rd minute penalty in a pressure situation to win a match is at least something of a positive in my book.
It almost looks like people would have been happier if we had not scored, and the result more easily fit in with the 'doom and gloom' scenario that we are experiencing. Any win at this moment doesn't help anyone in this camp. I also want changes, world class players, hopefully a better suited manager, but I imagine the people in charge already know about this as it is clearly visible. I am happy to take wins and survive on whatever other positives are there, until the changes do happen.
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