[Cassidy]

Why? It's very relevant, especially as that's when Rooney predominantly played further forward..

Its irrelavent, especially when the issue people label at Rooney is that he is past his best or is in decline.
The mitigating circumstances however is that he has spent quite a lot of time being played out of position.

EDIT: Another thing to add to that is that if Rooney was as prolific as someone like Aguero we wouldn't have when and got RVP and moved Rooney further back.

EDIT: Also Diego Costa wasn't playing as a striker for many of those season either, Falcao was up top and Costa maily played wide or behind.

 

[Shark]

Wish we still has the 2009/2010 Rooney on our hands. None of us would be worrying about our striker situation then. He was lethal that season.

 

[bosnian_red]

Why? It's very relevant, especially as that's when Rooney predominantly played further forward..

It's not relevant for him as it doesn't suit his argument, basically

 

[Shark]

Its irrelavent, especially when the issue people label at Rooney is that he is past his best or is in decline.
The mitigating circumstances however is that he has spent quite a lot of time being played out of position.

He is and it's as clear as day.

 

[Impulse]

What happened 5 years ago isn't very relavent. Take the stats from the last 3 seasons.

League goals in last 3 seasons:

Costa: 57
Aguero: 55
Rooney: 41
Sturridge: 36
Kane: 26

Considering Rooney spend one of those seasons in midfield it's really not that big a gap. Although it's really moot anyway, I'm not claiming that Rooney is a world class player who will score for fun but refuting the claim that those other players are more likely to have a great goalscoring season than he is. Rooney is held to a far higher standard than most players.

EDIT: Another thing to add to that is that if Rooney was as prolific as someone like Aguero we wouldn't have when and got RVP and moved Rooney further back.

At the time we signed RVP, Rooney had hit 34 goals in 2 of his previous 3 seasons.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Its irrelavent, especially when the issue people label at Rooney is that he is past his best or is in decline.
The mitigating circumstances however is that he has spent quite a lot of time being played out of position.

People have been saying Rooney is in decline since he joined us, he isn't. He just never hit the heights some of us wished or hoped for, and is forever hampered by that.

When I asked why it isn't relevant, your response is "Its irrelavent".. Can you explain why? As case in point for me is your last sentance, admitting he has played out of position recently, but then you used this as your stats range, while ignore his time as a CF..

 

[Cassidy]

People have been saying Rooney is in decline since he joined us, he isn't. He just never hit the heights some of us wished or hoped for, and is forever hampered by that.

When I asked why it isn't relevant, your response is "Its irrelavent".. Can you explain why? As case in point for me is your last sentance, admitting he has played out of position recently, but then you used this as your stats range, while ignore his time as a CF..

I didn't ignore his time as a CF, hes played as a CF during that time too. The stats also includes time where Costa wasn't a CF for instance (wide for athletico) or Sturridge (wide for chelsea) or Kane wasn't even kicking a ball in the EPL.

Take the last 3 years (because we can all talk about what a player did 5 years ago but is it really relevant to today?) I mean would you want us to sign Berbatov or Ronaldinho based on their history.

We need to look at recent history which is why I said 5 years ago is irrelavent, football moves on quickly.
I wouldn't advocate signing Xavi based on what he was doing 5 years ago.

So take the last 3 years, calculate the minutes played as a CF for each, and then count the goals scored during that period. Then do goals per minute played, that will give you a more accurate and relevant rating.

 

[Shark]

Rooney not hitting the heights we all hoped he'd hit has nothing to do with saying he's been in decline for a number of seasons now, regardless of him being played out of position. He's just not got the same threat in front of goal and you rarely to never get excited when he's on the ball. Could you really say those two things about the Rooney of 5 years ago? he was a different animal. A much better one.

 

[shabadu84]

We should have our most...balanced...side since at least 2010. Hopefully that means he gets good service and can stay in his position. Don't see why he'd struggle to get 1 goal every 2 games in that case. Also, with how we've moved on other underperforming stars, wouldn't be surprised to see Rooney get dropped if needed this year, captain or not.

 

[Cassidy]

We should have our most...balanced...side since at least 2010. Hopefully that means he gets good service and can stay in his position. Don't see why he'd struggle to get 1 goal every 2 games in that case. Also, with how we've moved on other underperforming stars, wouldn't be surprised to see Rooney get dropped if needed this year, captain or not.

Dropped for who? fecking Wilson... hopefully we don't sell the pea...

 

[Rozay]

League goals in last 3 seasons:

Costa: 57
Aguero: 55
Rooney: 41
Sturridge: 36
Kane: 26

Considering Rooney spend one of those seasons in midfield it's really not that big a gap. Although it's really moot anyway, I'm not claiming that Rooney is a world class player who will score for fun but refuting the claim that those other players are more likely to have a great goalscoring season than he is. Rooney is held to a far higher standard than most players.



At the time we signed RVP, Rooney had hit 34 goals in 2 of his previous 3 seasons.

Is untrue. 6-10 games last season I'm guessing, perhaps a handful in 12/13 too. You should also consider that Costa, Aguero and Sturridge seem to miss at least a quarter of every season injured too.

 

[shabadu84]

Dropped for who? fecking Wilson... hopefully we don't sell the pea...

Knowing LVG's penchance for random moves no one understands, t could be for anyone. Fellaini, Januzaj, hell maybe even Phil Jones.

 

[Impulse]

Is untrue. 6-10 games last season I'm guessing, perhaps a handful in 12/13 too. You should also consider that Costa, Aguero and Sturridge seem to miss at least a quarter of every season injured too.

Nah it was definitely way more than 6-10, I'd be shocked if he didn't play at least half of last season in midfield. That's without considering that switching positions is going to make it very hard to maintain any sort of form. Injuries are irrelevant, you can't score if you're not fit.

 

[United again!]

Was watching the season review DVD over the weekend. Admittedly watching a season again in a condensed manner like that does make players look better


But I was reminded he did have some good spells last season and scored some very important goals


If he stays fit and no messing about, he stays up top I am certain he will hit 20 league goals

Did my thread inspire you to take a look back through the annals @Randall Flagg ? Perhaps my suggestion was a bit to subtle.
I basically feel this way also, the season reviews going back even further remind us how good a finisher he is. (Even with the cliché of highlights making a player look better.)

Honestly I am only new to redcafe and maybe I missed out on the anti-Rooney kool aid but this is some next level hatred going on in here. It is so unnecessary.

Even as a social experiment I'd love to sit some of these users down and show them the season reviews from the last five seasons. I really do think it would change a lot of the desperate narrative going on in this thread.
Some of it is genuine apprehension at the new season and their expectations, I understand that much of course but it is almost an obsession that I've seen where we must put him down endlessly for whatever purpose.

I hope he has a really good season and scores lots of goals, but I don't really think it will happen in this system. His role is far to passive and he lacks the physicality to hold up the ball in the system.
I fear the fans will be all over him like shit to a blanket over the tiniest things and it is completely undeserved. If Falcao and Van Persie couldn't play the role sufficiently then I really doubt that Rooney can without tweaking it to his strengths. I don't think Van Gaal will be doing that.

That doesn't mean any of them are rubbish footballers.

 

[Rozay]

Nah it was definitely way more than 6-10, I'd be shocked if he didn't play at least half of last season in midfield. That's without considering that switching positions is going to make it very hard to maintain any sort of form. Injuries are irrelevant, you can't score if you're not fit.

I thought we started off playing Blind, Herrera and Di Maria in the midfield, then at some stage Herrera was dropped for Fellaini. I thought Rooney moved in to midfield later on. I guess it is about inrepretations of formation, as you could say he started 'in midfield' behind Persie and Falcao for a few games, although I saw that more of a front three, but fair enough. There was a clear move back into actual midfield, where people were disappointed Herrera was not playing instead - that was when he was a central midfielder, and surely didn't last longer than 2 months, because we played with two for the most part, and Persie was injured, then Falcao dropped.

I don't think he started more than 10 games (at a stretch) as part of the midfield two, although I suppose he did start more early on the season behind a front two so it's fair.

 

[United again!]

I thought we started off playing Blind, Herrera and Di Maria in the midfield, then at some stage Herrera was dropped for Fellaini. I thought Rooney moved in to midfield later on. I guess it is about inrepretations of formation, as you could say he started 'in midfield' behind Persie and Falcao for a few games, although I saw that more of a front three, but fair enough. There was a clear move back into actual midfield, where people were disappointed Herrera was not playing instead - that was when he was a central midfielder, and surely didn't last longer than 2 months, because we played with two for the most part, and Persie was injured, then Falcao dropped.

I don't think he started more than 10 games (at a stretch) as part of the midfield two, although I suppose he did start more early on the season behind a front two so it's fair.

Even if he wasn't playing as the anchor, he regularly started games in the Fellaini and Herrera 10/8 position, it wasn't until the new year when Herrera came back into the fold was he playing regularly up front.

 

[Rozay]

Did my thread inspire you to take a look back through the annals @Randall Flagg ? Perhaps my suggestion was a bit to subtle.
I basically feel this way also, the season reviews going back even further remind us how good a finisher he is. (Even with the cliché of highlights making a player look better.)

Honestly I am only new to redcafe and maybe I missed out on the anti-Rooney kool aid but this is some next level hatred going on in here. It is so unnecessary.

Even as a social experiment I'd love to sit some of these users down and show them the season reviews from the last five seasons. I really do think it would change a lot of the desperate narrative going on in this thread.
Some of it is genuine apprehension at the new season and their expectations, I understand that much of course but it is almost an obsession that I've seen where we must put him down endlessly for whatever purpose.

I hope he has a really good season and scores lots of goals, but I don't really think it will happen in this system. His role is far to passive and he lacks the physicality to hold up the ball in the system.
I fear the fans will be all over him like shit to a blanket over the tiniest things and it is completely undeserved. If Falcao and Van Persie couldn't play the role sufficiently then I really doubt that Rooney can without tweaking it to his strengths. I don't think Van Gaal will be doing that.

That doesn't mean any of them are rubbish footballers.

This just smacks of common narrative of making excuses for the players not delivering, not just Rooney. Talk us through this perfect equilibrium that is required for Rooney to be a top player, where anything else is excusable, down to the 'system'.

Don't get me wrong, I can accept excusing poor performance in midfield, but up top, with two wingers and Memphis in behind? At some stage, surely we have to just say it is a round ball, and players need to just go out and do the business.

My optimism is increasing that he will deliver this season, partly because, well what would we have if were not hopeful? But the sense of inevitability, or expectation, in your post, and many other's posts that he will not deliver is largely down to an acknowledgement of the fact that he is not Luis Suarez, as opposed to the fact that it's all everyone else's fault.

I am hopeful. Perhaps also because I know what he could once do, and who knows, he may really have the urge to show that he is a proper top player again and do it big for us. But it is down to him, no excuses (unless of course he replaces Carrick or something).

 

[Rozay]

Even if he wasn't playing as the anchor, he regularly started games in the Fellaini and Herrera 10/8 position, it wasn't until the new year when Herrera came back into the fold was he playing regularly up front.

Agree, and he wasn't starting in that midfield role when the season started either. So it was a period in the middle. 2 months of a season is not that many games when you are only in one tournament. Certainly not more than 10, if that.

 

[NoLogo]

If he wants to be our go to guy and leading star he needs to step it up this season and show that he still got it. I hope he can have a good season as we need back a Rooney in top form to have a shot at the title.

 

[United again!]

This just smacks of common narrative of making excuses for the players not delivering, not just Rooney. Talk us through this perfect equilibrium that is required for Rooney to be a top player, where anything else is excusable, down to the 'system'.

When have I ever said Rooney has not delivered? I don't, nor have I ever needed to make excuses for him - he was top scorer last season. End of story, in my eyes.

Don't get me wrong, I can accept excusing poor performance in midfield, but up top, with two wingers and Memphis in behind? At some stage, surely we have to just say it is a round ball, and players need to just go out and do the business.

Tell that to Van Persie and Falcao who are gone. Tell that to Di Maria who is now gone, tell that to Ander Herrera who has said on multiple occasions he's had to remodel his game under Van Gaal just to perform correctly in the system. If you want to just ignore that Van Gaal has completely over complicated almost every aspect of every tactical position these past seasons then go ahead. Players need to adapt as well as utilize their own talents. That is pretty much why a wide variety of players from the top quality to the seemingly poor have moved on.

My optimism is increasing that he will deliver this season, partly because, well what would we have if were not hopeful? But the sense of inevitability, or expectation, in your post, and many other's posts that he will not deliver is largely down to an acknowledgement of the fact that he is not Luis Suarez, as opposed to the fact that it's all everyone else's fault.

Or in fact, it is due to the intepretation of the masses or the few that he has never really been a top quality shoulder striker. Especially not in a 4-3-3 with inverted wingers, you can cite the back end of last season to see the facts that support this argument. Whether or not Van Gaal follows through with his slight tweak of the system with Memphis in behind will remain to be seen, that is probably the first place to start when factoring whether or not he is accommodating Rooney up front. If he reverts back to the point forwards 4-3-3 from the back end of last season then he's not really playing a system that is built around the ability of Rooney. (Who I think is more of a natural 10 in the role that Memphis is going to play anyway).

I am hopeful. Perhaps also because I know what he could once do, and who knows, he may really have the urge to show that he is a proper top player again and do it big for us. But it is down to him, no excuses (unless of course he replaces Carrick or something).

I'll give you an example, if you tell a player like Hernandez to drop deep and get involved in the buildup then he's probably going to struggle. If you push the entire system up behind him and win the ball high and let him get into space and get tap-ins then you're playing to his strengths. It is the same with Rooney. If you put him in a system where his main aim is the hold the ball up and bring players into play then by the arguments presented in the past, he's going to struggle. It isn't making excuses, it is stating the fact that if you change everyone into an uncomfortable role then only the ones who can adapt to it will flourish. That has been plainly obvious with the man-management of most of the squad since Van Gaal arrived.

Agree, and he wasn't starting in that midfield role when the season started either. So it was a period in the middle. 2 months of a season is not that many games when you are only in one tournament. Certainly not more than 10, if that.

The Stoke game on NYD was still 3-5-2 with Rooney behind the strikers and that was 20 games in. I think your radar is askew on that one.

edit; Actually I think Mata was in the hole and Rooney beside Carrick.

 

[United again!]

But I was reminded he did have some good spells last season and scored some very important goals

That tap in from Falcao's ball was definitely my favourite. Against Newcastle, involved in the buildup and his entire run takes him into the box for the tap in. Beautiful.

 

[Impulse]

I thought we started off playing Blind, Herrera and Di Maria in the midfield, then at some stage Herrera was dropped for Fellaini. I thought Rooney moved in to midfield later on. I guess it is about inrepretations of formation, as you could say he started 'in midfield' behind Persie and Falcao for a few games, although I saw that more of a front three, but fair enough. There was a clear move back into actual midfield, where people were disappointed Herrera was not playing instead - that was when he was a central midfielder, and surely didn't last longer than 2 months, because we played with two for the most part, and Persie was injured, then Falcao dropped.

I don't think he started more than 10 games (at a stretch) as part of the midfield two, although I suppose he did start more early on the season behind a front two so it's fair.

He started the first couple of games up front then moved to a 10 behind RVP and Falcao, after he came back from suspension he started playing as a proper midfielder which was against City at the start of November. He stayed there until we played Newcastle at the start of March which was when RVP and Falcao were both injured. That's the best part of 4 months as an out and out CM with another couple months as a 10. He definitely played the bulk of his football outside of the CF position.

After that it's as you say, down to interpretation of the formation, but I personally would count the 10 more as a midfield position than a forward one when there are two forwards playing in front of the 10, which is often what we played at the start of the season. As far as I can tell Rooney played 20 games in midfield out of 33 in the league if we stick by that definition.

 

[Freak]

So slow that he needed the defender to finish for him.

 

[sizzling sausages]

I still don't understand why he took the touch, he got very lucky.

 

[Randall Flagg]

Just said in th match day day thread

He looked good to me apart from dropping too deep at times

Thought it a decent half from him, as always he gets more scrutinised then every player

 

[Sky1981]

He didnt score that one, awarded as own goal

 

[marjen]

Has held the ball up quite good. Few sightings of the dreaded first touch.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Has cinder blocks for feet.

 

[Sammyjunn]

He's been quite good, but he isnt really a goalthreat for me. He gets the easiest chance and manages to ruin that.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

playing good but he needs to score that chance, lucky Walker is a brainless idiot.....

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

He's been fine so far, anyone who says otherwise is just nitpicking.

 

[Amadaeus]

Did he want to take a selfie with the ball? He stood their for a good minute until walker showed him how to shoot the ball into the net. I have not been impressed with him, but at least he got me some point on fantasy team .

 

[SteveJ]

To be fair, even I've had the ball more often than he has.

 

[RORY65]

He's not been that good really, he's not the player he was 4 or 5 years ago but him being our main striker is not the disaster some make it out to be. He'll surely get a good number of goals and put in numerous quality performances. The issue is that we have absolutely no competition if he gets injured or goes through a spell of bad form, which he usually does within a season.

 

[marjen]

He must bury chances like the one Walker tucked away from him, to be fair. That's a sitter.

 

[facund]

A bit off the pace at times (Walker let him off the hook on the goal) but a reasonably solid first half.

 

[Americano]

Ball bounces off his feet in penalty area. He comes to a complete stop, standing still. The ball drops. He stands up straight right there threateningly close to the goal, waiting for the moment to ripen. Shall I strike this? Perhaps. Or maybe I will invite Kyle Walker to clear the ball into his own net.

 

[fallengt]

Well calculated .If you can't score goal, let's someone else does it. That's what 20 goals a season striker would do.

 

[entropy]

Let the shitstorm begin..

 

[FC Ronaldo]

Poor showing today but the result is all that matters. Onwards and upwards from here let's hope.