djembatheking
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Point of contact ?
![TELEMMGLPICT000385126682_17206399853470_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqQv8PhuGzYBWYEozZmXWUMIO2JF_w593QGlWaWVZxraI.jpeg](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/football/2024/07/10/TELEMMGLPICT000385126682_17206399853470_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqQv8PhuGzYBWYEozZmXWUMIO2JF_w593QGlWaWVZxraI.jpeg?imwidth=960)
The outside of the boot is the side facing away from him.
True. The gullible nature of the refs and VAR team show that it’s worth asking a question. If Dumfries mirrors Kane’s reaction, it would’ve fed the view that it was a coming together with equal contact and consequence for both players.I do wonder, if Dumfries had gone down screaming like Kane, I think there's probably refs who whistle against Kane. Goes to show, always pretend you've broken a foot.
ok, now I'm really done with this thread. Stop it.
The outside of his foot/boot will always be facing away from him. That's just human anatomy. I thought you were a doctor?
Which side of his foot is the one pointing at the ball and is leading his body in the direction of movement?
If you can’t make the sole of your foot face away from you then you need to see a doctor.
Man, you're having an absolute mare. What has that got to do with what you said? Who said that he (me/anyone) can't make his sole face away from him?
Are you doing a Biden on us?
Dumfries studs are facing to the side and Kane kicks him in the studs. I don't give a feck about the call at this point, but Kane kicks Dumfries foot. You can very reasonably argue that Dumfries foot shouldn't be their and award a pen for that, but Dumfries is not lunging at Kane with his studs up.
Look at that very large picture on this page. Dumfries studs are facing to the side line. Kane is in a 90 degree angle to that. Kane kicks the ball, and since he has a knee joint his foot ends on Dumfries' studs. I'm not saying it's not a penalty (though I still think it's 50-50 at best), but Kane kicks Dumfries' in the studs. Dumfries wasn't lunging at Kane studs up, he was trying to block a shot. Clumsily, because he is Dumfries, but it's an extremely (un)fortunate collision. I also think that if Dumfries emulates Kane's play acting some refs give him a free kick, but he didn't and it was a penalty and England won.To the side of what, mate? Because it's obviously angle and movement dependent, no?
The point you’ve been repeatedly avoiding here is that “studs up” challenges happen when the studs point towards someone at point of contact. Not downwards. The clue is in the phrase. Dumfries doesn’t make a studs up challenge. He tries to block a shot with the outside of his foot. Kane then kicks the side/bottom of his boot.
Ah, by that definition, then yes, it's studs up, but I was also thinking Pogue's definition.Hard no. A studs up challenge is one where a player is leading with his studs in his direction of movement. Dumfries is moving his leg towards where the ball is, not Kane. And he's clearly leading with studs in his attempt to get to the ball.
Look at that very large picture on this page. Dumfries studs are facing to the side line. Kane is in a 90 degree angle to that. Kane kicks the ball, and since he has a knee joint his foot ends on Dumfries' studs. I'm not saying it's not a penalty (though I still think it's 50-50 at best), but Kane kicks Dumfries' in the studs. Dumfries wasn't lunging at Kane studs up, he was trying to block a shot. Clumsily, because he is Dumfries, but it's an extremely (un)fortunate collision. I also think that if Dumfries emulates Kane's play acting some refs give him a free kick, but he didn't and it was a penalty and England won.
Bygones.
Eh, yes? Very clearly? Dumfries foot is going from side to side and Kane kicks into it's trajectory. Not saying it's not a foul, but Dumfries's studs are not moving into Kane.Dumfies studs are not aiming at the sideline, mate. You might as well have said his studs are facing towards Melbourne, it's a pointless point of reference. He's not moving towards the sideline.
Dumfries is going for/moving towards the ball. Which part of his body is leading in his direction of movement?
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You're looking at this picture and you're telling me that Kane (who got to the ball) is the one kicking Dumfries not the other way round
Law 14: A penalty kick is awarded if a player commits a direct free kick offence inside their penalty area or off the field as part of play as outlined in Laws 12 and 13.
Law 12: A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:
Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed
- kicks or attempts to kick
Reckless is when a player acts with disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, an opponent and must be cautioned
Using excessive force is when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and endangers the safety of an opponent and must be sent off
This seems fair enough.Excerpts from the laws of the game, for clarity:
'He has a right to try and block the shot?' is not a defence. He has a right to try and block the shot in line with the rules of the game. If he hasn't put himself in a position to do it legally, he doesn't get carte blanche to do it illegally instead.
Is it a kick? Yes. His foot makes physical contact with the opponent, and that's the only criterion.
Is it careless? Yes, because the outcome is that the hard sole and studs of his boot hits Kane's foot in a way that could cause injury. He can see Kane throughout so he can't claim ignorance of the risk he took.
Is it reckless? No, not for me, because although it could injure Kane I'd say there's an almost zero chance of it seriously injuring him.
'He isn't studs up': There's no reference to 'studs up' anywhere in the laws of the game, so that's irrelevant. His studs hit Kane's foot in a way that could cause injury.
'Kane kicks him too': Kane kicks the ball, then makes contact with Dumfries as part of the same movement. Dumfries fails to kick the ball, so can only be described as kicking Kane.
'There's no intent to kick Kane': There doesn't need to be. The rules cited above don't mention intent.
His studs are not facing Harry Kane. I doesn't matter, we're in the final, but it wasn't a pen.Point of contact ?
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Are you suggesting Harry Kane's foot isn't part of Harry Kane? That's an argument I've not heard before.His studs are not facing Harry Kane. I doesn't matter, we're in the final, but it wasn't a pen.
Harry Kane's foot moved towards his boot.Are you suggesting Harry Kane's foot isn't part of Harry Kane? That's an argument I've not heard before.
Are you suggesting Harry Kane's foot isn't part of Harry Kane? That's an argument I've not heard before.
Harry Kane's foot moved towards his boot.
His foot doesn't change direction Kane's does. I've seen this hundreds of times before and not seen a pen for it.And Dumfries boot didn't move to wards Kane's foot? Is that what you're arguing?
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And Dumfries boot didn't move to wards Kane's foot? Is that what you're arguing?
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His foot doesn't change direction Kane's does. I've seen this hundreds of times before and not seen a pen for it.
His foot doesn't change direction Kane's does. I've seen this hundreds of times before and not seen a pen for it.
That's actually an awful challenge by Dumfries.
I agree, I was shocked to see people think he was playing it up, it looked fecking painful.Anyone who thinks Kane was playing acting is out of their mind. That shit hurts like a mofo.
Some people have too much time to kill! Honestly as if it really matters anymore!How is this thread still going![]()
That's actually an awful challenge by Dumfries.
Have you seen the gif on the previous page? Genuinely don’t understand how people can say it’s the follow through that hits the other player. The ball leaves his foot and before any follow through whatsoever Dumfries late block hits him.Nah. Its borderline a foul and you would probably get it outside the box but its weak for a penalty.
The reason is that its Kane's momentum that flies into Dumfries boot which itself doesnt have much momentum and intention behind it. Its up to block and not advancing at Kane to catch him standing.
When you see bad tackles and reds for a challenge with studs its because the foot has plenty of momentum going straight into the player, not taking up a space in the air where he hopes he can block the ball. Again its Kane's through swing of his volley that carries through onto Dumfries foot where it does catch his studs and why you can argue for a penalty.
Nah. Its borderline a foul and you would probably get it outside the box but its weak for a penalty.
The reason is that its Kane's momentum that flies into Dumfries boot which itself doesnt have much momentum and intention behind it. Its up to block and not advancing at Kane to catch him standing.
When you see bad tackles and reds for a challenge with studs its because the foot has plenty of momentum going straight into the player, not taking up a space in the air where he hopes he can block the ball. Again its Kane's through swing of his volley that carries through onto Dumfries foot where it does catch his studs and why you can argue for a penalty.
Have you seen the gif on the previous page? Genuinely don’t understand how people can say it’s the follow through that hits the other player. The ball leaves his foot and before any follow through whatsoever Dumfries late block hits him.
So Kane shouldn’t shoot the ball? I don’t understand. Watch the gif on the previous page and tell me how Kanes follow through initiates the contact?No, Kane's follow through hits Dumfries foot. Dumfries doesnt get the ball you're quite right. But Kane gets hit because of his own action, moving his own feet at thrice the velocity of Dumfries foot
If you searched "England penalty" on Twitter the top 26 posts that had an opinion said "no pen", took 27 to find someone who thought it was a pen.
Doesn't get more definitive than that.