Virgil van Dijk | Performances

Buchan said:
Insecure wankers.

Their clamouring first validation from all and sundry is pathetic.
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Let's face it pal, you wouldn't give a Liverpool player validation if he found a way to end all wars & found a cure for cancer.

That's why I love it on here. I like to bang on your echo chamber now & again to make sure you're in touch with reality. & as for the 'insecure' tag. Talk about ironic.
 
redman5 said:
You didn't answer my question regarding how your 2 guys were superior to VVD. I'll take it you can't then. Understandable I suppose. & yes I did read @Brwned's post about longentivity = legend. Can we take it then that Phil Neville has widespread legendary status because he was at United for quite some time & won a shitload of trophies ? But listen, I understand. I'm on a Manchester United forum & appreciate that you, & others, are keen to protect the memories & status you have of your great players from the past. But I'm sure if you went outside of your own little world & heard from footballing neutrals then most would have VVD listed as a legend already.
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You are just rambling on now and posting nonsense. The fact you have introduced Phil Neville into the discussion tells me you're foaming at the mouth in anger because I'm not licking Virgil's ring piece.

Not sure what you can't understand but I'll try again one last time. If he carries on playing at the highest level for a protracted period he'll be considered a legend and talked about as a great of the game. At the moment he's done brilliantly for 18 months so forgive me for not wanting to say he's the best centre half to have graced the field.
 
TheReligion said:
I've not watched him as closely as you so I won't argue. He just seems a bit more error prone and vulnerable but I might just have caught him at a bad time.

He definitely benefits from a regular partner. Every CB does as defending as a unit requires consistency and a team within a team IMO.
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Vidic coped better without Ferdinand than the other way round. I found him to be the better player.
 
Should win every relevant individual award in the league. He makes defending look easy - a class above every other player in the league. I agree that he was even better last season, but even so he's still above the rest.
 
TheReligion said:
You are just rambling on now and posting nonsense. The fact you have introduced Phil Neville into the discussion tells me you're foaming at the mouth in anger because I'm not licking Virgil's ring piece.

Not sure what you can't understand but I'll try again one last time. If he carries on playing at the highest level for a protracted period he'll be considered a legend and talked about as a great of the game. At the moment he's done brilliantly for 18 months so forgive me for not wanting to say he's the best centre half to have graced the field.
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No foaming going on here my friend. Just indulging in a little bit of banter & debate. Seeing as you can't answer my initial question - which I fully understand - then answer me this hypothetical one.

Supposing Klopp took over at United instead of Liverpool, bought the same players, & had you in the position we are in now. Would you still be questioning VVD's validity as to whether or not he's deserving of being mentioned in the same breath as Rio & Vidic ?
 
redman5 said:
No foaming going on here my friend. Just indulging in a little bit of banter & debate. Seeing as you can't answer my initial question - which I fully understand - then answer me this hypothetical one.

Supposing Klopp took over at United instead of Liverpool, bought the same players, & had you in the position we are in now. Would you still be questioning VVD's validity as to whether or not he's deserving of being mentioned in the same breath as Rio & Vidic ?
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I wouldn't even be asking the question until he'd delivered what those two had for a consistent period of time. You Liverpool fans are so giddy it's like you have to go all in and shout about something straight away. I get you're excited about breaking the league hoodoo but just settle down.

redman5 said:
So therefore if he was underrated, that means Ferdinand must have been overrated, yes ?
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Erm no. That's not how that works really.
 
I think individual quality is just one metric we use to discern whether a player is Great vs great. Legendary players all have a combination of excellent individual ability, longevity and multiple top level honours to their names.

Van Dijk has the ability no doubt, but I think he needs to remain at the top level for another few years and he needs to win more trophies. Whether with us or another team, I have no doubt he will do so.

I don’t see what the rush is, he’s at his peak right now and doesn’t look to be declining any time soon. If he keeps it up there’s no doubt he’ll be in that bracket of legendary defenders. Trying to shoehorn him in now when he’s not going anywhere is a disservice to him and it’s a disservice to other legends. Just let him do his thing, he’ll get the plaudits he deserves in time.
 
Dipper said:
I think individual quality is just one metric we use to discern whether a player is Great vs great. Legendary players all have a combination of excellent individual ability, longevity and multiple top level honours to their names.

Van Dijk has the ability no doubt, but I think he needs to remain at the top level for another few years and he needs to win more trophies. Whether with us or another team, I have no doubt he will do so.

I don’t see what the rush is, he’s at his peak right now and doesn’t look to be declining any time soon. If he keeps it up there’s no doubt he’ll be in that bracket of legendary defenders. Trying to shoehorn him in now when he’s not going anywhere is a disservice to him and it’s a disservice to other legends. Just let him do his thing, he’ll get the plaudits he deserves in time.
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Great post. At least one of the dippers gets it. Bravo!
 
GaryLifo said:
6 more games and then we can ban the lot of them.

Not too long now folks
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Some of them are little snakes. They pretend to come on here for intelligent discussion but then if you don't back their opinions or lick their arses they get upset like a jilted lover.

Don't see the point really. Why come on here if you want everyone to agree with you.
 
I'd have stopped at 'why come on here'

It's really just to gloat. I've never posted on a scouse forum and never would. All this 'but they bring a different view otherwise we'd all just be agreeing' is bollocks. United fans can't agree on anything these days, but at least we could bicker without smug scouse cnuts chipping in
 
TheReligion said:
Great post. At least one of the dippers gets it. Bravo!
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TheReligion said:
Great post. At least one of the dippers gets it. Bravo!
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The lack of patience just gets to me. Legends are always looked on kindly down the line. Van Dijk isn’t going to die if we don’t all loudly hoist him up to the top of the pile with Maldini and co RIGHT NOW.

Put it this way, if Van Dijk keeps it up, the only thing stopping him being called a legend at the end of his career would be all of us dying in nuclear war.

I don’t see why we can’t just be happy with how we’re doing and save the legend chat for five years from now.
 
GaryLifo said:
6 more games and then we can ban the lot of them.

Not too long now folks
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I bet you were quite happy having us on here during United's glory years. In fact I know you were because I was here too & I don't ever recall cries for us all being banned back then. There's plenty of threads on The Caf, so if you don't like, or you disagree, what people are saying on a particular thread then you have the option to challenge it or ignore it. But just to ignore it & call for the scouse f**kers to be banned is not really what football forums are about are they ?
 
TheReligion said:
Some of them are little snakes. They pretend to come on here for intelligent discussion but then if you don't back their opinions or lick their arses they get upset like a jilted lover.

Don't see the point really. Why come on here if you want everyone to agree with you.
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Over 5,000 posts & I reckon I can count on one hand the amount of United fans who've agreed with me during my time here. Don't get yourself so wound up. It's only words.
 
redman5 said:
I bet you were quite happy having us on here during United's glory years. In fact I know you were because I was here too & I don't ever recall cries for us all being banned back then. There's plenty of threads on The Caf, so if you don't like, or you disagree, what people are saying on a particular thread then you have the option to challenge it or ignore it. But just to ignore it & call for the scouse f**kers to be banned is not really what football forums are about are they ?
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Are United fans welcomed with open arms on RAWK?
 
Obviously they won't want to sell Van Dijk but it means they'll need to pay him top dollar to keep him. And then their other players will want similar deals and then it's going to be interesting how they keep everything together.
 
I agree with Dipper in that van Dijk needs to play at this level for a little longer and win more trophies to be considered a legend. What he is right now is probably the best defender in the world and that is all that matters. If he stays and keeps up the performances while winning trophies then he’ll earn the title.
 
redman5 said:
I bet you were quite happy having us on here during United's glory years. In fact I know you were because I was here too & I don't ever recall cries for us all being banned back then. There's plenty of threads on The Caf, so if you don't like, or you disagree, what people are saying on a particular thread then you have the option to challenge it or ignore it. But just to ignore it & call for the scouse f**kers to be banned is not really what football forums are about are they ?
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There was nowhere near as many of you, or you were nowhere near as loud. And for that matter, neither were we during our glory years. I completely regret not being a massive gobshite like a large percentage of Liverpool fans at the moment.
 
Storm Force said:
If he leaves then he leaves.

Coutinho left
Emre Chan left.
Owen left in his prime
Torres left.

Not one of them enjoyed the adulation the vibe the incredible global recognition you get wearing the red of Liverpool
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Yes, Coutinho left to play with Messi at Barcelona and Owen left to join the Galacticos at Real Madrid because they both wanted to get out from the limelight of the footballing world that we all know shines the brightest on players who never win anything while playing for Liverpool.
 
redman5 said:
I bet you were quite happy having us on here during United's glory years. In fact I know you were because I was here too & I don't ever recall cries for us all being banned back then. There's plenty of threads on The Caf, so if you don't like, or you disagree, what people are saying on a particular thread then you have the option to challenge it or ignore it. But just to ignore it & call for the scouse f**kers to be banned is not really what football forums are about are they ?
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You're coming up with some random rubbish tonight. Thought you were actually one of the alright Scouse posters who wasn't overly deluded but I'm not sure now. Why on earth are you lecturing us about our own forum and trying to level a comparison? It's a United forum. You're a guest here. You shouldn't all be banned but the gobshites should get the boot. Especially if they are coming here to gloat and wind up United fans. The same way you wouldn't tolerate someone taking the piss out of you in your own home.
 
Sparky Rhiwabon said:
Are United fans welcomed with open arms on RAWK?
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I don't believe they are, why ? The thing is RAWK has been ridiculed on here for years, which is fair enough. But there quite often seemed to be something of a 'self-righteous' attitude on here from some people over the fact that oppo fans were 'tolerated' on here as opposed to RAWK. I suggested that you could only judge yourself as being truly tolerant if/when United were well into a state of decline & other clubs had overtaken them. We now seem to be at that stage & we have a growing call from certain posters to have us all removed. If that happens, The Caf really becomes no better than RAWK.
 
redman5 said:
I don't believe they are, why ? The thing is RAWK has been ridiculed on here for years, which is fair enough. But there quite often seemed to be something of a 'self-righteous' attitude on here from some people over the fact that oppo fans were 'tolerated' on here as opposed to RAWK. I suggested that you could only judge yourself as being truly tolerant if/when United were well into a state of decline & other clubs had overtaken them. We now seem to be at that stage & we have a growing call from certain posters to have us all removed. If that happens, The Caf really becomes no better than RAWK.
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Yeah, fair point
 
TheReligion said:
You're coming up with some random rubbish tonight. Thought you were actually one of the alright Scouse posters who wasn't overly deluded but I'm not sure now. Why on earth are you lecturing us about our own forum and trying to level a comparison? It's a United forum. You're a guest here. You shouldn't all be banned but the gobshites should get the boot. Especially if they are coming here to gloat and wind up United fans. The same way you wouldn't tolerate someone taking the piss out of you in your own home.
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That's the problem you see. Who gets to decide what's banter & debate & what's gloating & wumming ? Some people are more sensitive than others, especially as your hated enemy looks set to do the unthinkable & win their first league title in 3 decades. Seeing as I came through the newbies the same way as you probably did I'd argue that my point is just as valid as yours, because it's not a house it's a football forum FFS. It might well be a Manchester United forum but it's mainly the Liverpool threads I post on. Seems to me like there are some on here who just want the freedom to offer negative opinions on Liverpool matters without redress. I mean, how shit would that be ?
 
redman5 said:
That's the problem you see. Who gets to decide what's banter & debate & what's gloating & wumming ? Some people are more sensitive than others, especially as your hated enemy looks set to do the unthinkable & win their first league title in 3 decades. Seeing as I came through the newbies the same way as you probably did I'd argue that my point is just as valid as yours, because it's not a house it's a football forum FFS. It might well be a Manchester United forum but it's mainly the Liverpool threads I post on. Seems to me like there are some on here who just want the freedom to offer negative opinions on Liverpool matters without redress. I mean, how shit would that be ?
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If someone comes to my house and wants a bit of banter fine. If someone thinks I'm going to tolerate them coming over purely to take the piss out of me and wind me up they are getting thrown out by the scruff of their neck. It's simple really. It's a United forum and you lot are guests here. By all means get involved in banter but if you are just posting here to cause bother and mug us all off you can do one and hopefully the mods recognise that and rightfully feck you off. It's not a democracy.

The fact you only come on here to post in the Liverpool thread is equally as bizarre as you not understanding the above. If all you want to talk about is Liverpool then why the feck you're on a United forum I'll never know.
 
redman5 said:
I don't believe they are, why ? The thing is RAWK has been ridiculed on here for years, which is fair enough. But there quite often seemed to be something of a 'self-righteous' attitude on here from some people over the fact that oppo fans were 'tolerated' on here as opposed to RAWK. I suggested that you could only judge yourself as being truly tolerant if/when United were well into a state of decline & other clubs had overtaken them. We now seem to be at that stage & we have a growing call from certain posters to have us all removed. If that happens, The Caf really becomes no better than RAWK.
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Maybe I'm a deluded united fan but I dont really believe any club has over taken us. Yes no doubt both pool and city teams are far better than us at present but we are still worth 2 or 3 times what liverpool are as a club, still draw bigger crowds, pull in bigger deals etc. Your current team is better than our current team but I dont see in what other ways you have overtaken us? I'd argue that if you took Vvd out of this pool side and put him in ours we would probably be level on points at that moment. Or if Klopp were to take over the German national team in the summer, you would most likely be back to your old shit selves.

You ain't nearly as far ahead as you might think.
 
redman5 said:
I bet you were quite happy having us on here during United's glory years. In fact I know you were because I was here too & I don't ever recall cries for us all being banned back then. There's plenty of threads on The Caf, so if you don't like, or you disagree, what people are saying on a particular thread then you have the option to challenge it or ignore it. But just to ignore it & call for the scouse f**kers to be banned is not really what football forums are about are they ?
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No, I've been here since 2001 and back then I thought you were all deluded bell ends and I used to like that a lot of you got banned quite often for stepping out of line even slightly. I then, as now, wonder what on earth would make you join a Manchester United forum. You can pretend it's not really a United forum, but it is. It's owned by a United fan and United fans outnumber fans of all other teams on here combined.

Back in 2001 we only had one forum, a United forum. The general football forum was meant for United fans to talk about non- United games.

Anyway, I don't own the place, but if I did, you'd all be gone within 24 hours.
 
GaryLifo said:
No, I've been here since 2001 and back then I thought you were all deluded bell ends and I used to like that a lot of you got banned quite often for stepping out of line even slightly. I then, as now, wonder what on earth would make you join a Manchester United forum. You can pretend it's not really a United forum, but it is. It's owned by a United fan and United fans outnumber fans of all other teams on here combined.

Back in 2001 we only had one forum, a United forum. The general football forum was meant for United fans to talk about non- United games.

Anyway, I don't own the place, but if I did, you'd all be gone within 24 hours.
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I could answer that by saying that I’m not from the northwest of England, so the rivalry doesn’t mean as much to me.

Would you have absolutely no oppos on here then?
 
What performances are we talking about, he has eff all to do. Put him in a struggling defence with a dodgy keeper and let's see what he's made of. He's big, thats it!...edit, I forgot, he has a dodgy keeper behind him.
 
redman5 said:
You didn't answer my question regarding how your 2 guys were superior to VVD. I'll take it you can't then. Understandable I suppose. & yes I did read @Brwned's post about longentivity = legend. Can we take it then that Phil Neville has widespread legendary status because he was at United for quite some time & won a shitload of trophies ? But listen, I understand. I'm on a Manchester United forum & appreciate that you, & others, are keen to protect the memories & status you have of your great players from the past. But I'm sure if you went outside of your own little world & heard from footballing neutrals then most would have VVD listed as a legend already.
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Nope, because that would be missing the 3rd - and what everyone agrees is the most important - element, the player's individual quality. And often tied into that, you'd have the players' direct contribution to that success.

Van Dijk does better than most centre backs I've ever seen on individual quality and contribution to team success, and if he was to win another CL this year he'd step into legendary status on the back of just those two seasons - very few CBs have had such an impact in such a short time.

But you can't just overlook the years and years of class that someone like Maldini offered. Not only is it valuable to a team's success over a long period, but it's one of the most impressive and important individual qualities in every sport - very few of the legends did it over a very short period of time, for a reason. The mental fortitude, dedication, professionalism etc. set them apart from their peers.
 
Well this thread took a turn. I mean I’d definitely argue for putting a lock on the number of new Liverpool posters signing up seeing as a few will be from RAWK on a wind up. I don’t think banning people who’ve been here for years is the answer though. Most of us have generally just been on here cause we prefer talking to other fans as well as our own and mostly it’s reasoned debate. At the end of the day it’s just lads/lasses discussing football on the internet. Some will get out of line and will be banned and rightfully so.

Anyways as for VVD I’d agree with the wait sentiment. I think there’s pretty much every chance he’ll go down as one of the greats once his career is done. He’s set to win the big honours whilst in this league and him Allison plus Gomez Trent Robbo and Fabinho will likely be an excellent spine for years.
 
TheReligion said:
Vidic has some of the best stats in PL history. (Better than VVD btw).

Very underrated by some and cost £7m not £75.
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VVD is better. My eyes don’t lie. There hasn’t been anything like this guy. I think you know it too.
 
Brwned said:
Nope, because that would be missing the 3rd - and what everyone agrees is the most important - element, the player's individual quality. And often tied into that, you'd have the players' direct contribution to that success.

Van Dijk does better than most centre backs I've ever seen on individual quality and contribution to team success, and if he was to win another CL this year he'd step into legendary status on the back of just those two seasons - very few CBs have had such an impact in such a short time.

But you can't just overlook the years and years of class that someone like Maldini offered. Not only is it valuable to a team's success over a long period, but it's one of the most impressive and important individual qualities in every sport - very few of the legends did it over a very short period of time, for a reason. The mental fortitude, dedication, professionalism etc. set them apart from their peers.
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Who gets to write the rules on 'legendary status' ? The moment Alex Ferguson & the likes of Hughes, Pallister, Bruce & co won United's first league title in 26 years did they not deserve the title of legends then ? Did United supporters say, " meh, let's wait until they've won a few more titles & a CL before we bestow such an accolade upon them"

Prior to VVD arriving at Liverpool Alan Hansen & Mark Lawrenson were the best centre-backs I'd ever seen wearing a LFC shirt. Our Dutch centre-half blows them both out of the water. The fact that he's yet to win anywhere near what they've won in the game doesn't change that.
 
GaryLifo said:
No, I've been here since 2001 and back then I thought you were all deluded bell ends and I used to like that a lot of you got banned quite often for stepping out of line even slightly. I then, as now, wonder what on earth would make you join a Manchester United forum. You can pretend it's not really a United forum, but it is. It's owned by a United fan and United fans outnumber fans of all other teams on here combined.

Back in 2001 we only had one forum, a United forum. The general football forum was meant for United fans to talk about non- United games.

Anyway, I don't own the place, but if I did, you'd all be gone within 24 hours.
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The first I'd ever heard of Redcafe was when I clicked on to a link from a small LFC forum which took me here. There was a thread on Emlyn Hughes who had sadly passed away a year or two earlier. There were lots of complimentary comments about him so I joined with the sole intention of just thanking people for their kind words. After a spell in the newbies I was eventually promoted the day after John O'Shea scored that last minute winner at Anfield (nice one mods). I actually found this place to be good fun. As a highly competitive character myself I really enjoyed the challenging nature of going up against supporters of our fiercest rivals, so I've hung around for a lot longer than I'd expected. I can kinda understand why you're pissed off, especially as the fortunes of our clubs have changed in recent years. What I can't understand though is what would you post differently about LFC if we were all excluded ? Do you simply want to write guff & shite about Liverpool without others taking you to task over what you believe ? Be a boring place if that was the case. Even people on RAWK have said recently about how good this place is for general football discussion. Now that's the highest praise you're likely to get.
 
TheReligion said:
If someone comes to my house and wants a bit of banter fine. If someone thinks I'm going to tolerate them coming over purely to take the piss out of me and wind me up they are getting thrown out by the scruff of their neck. It's simple really. It's a United forum and you lot are guests here. By all means get involved in banter but if you are just posting here to cause bother and mug us all off you can do one and hopefully the mods recognise that and rightfully feck you off. It's not a democracy.

The fact you only come on here to post in the Liverpool thread is equally as bizarre as you not understanding the above. If all you want to talk about is Liverpool then why the feck you're on a United forum I'll never know.
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There you go again with this 'house' analogy. & if you feel I'm mugging you off then you have the opportunity to report me as a WUM. It's a game of football FFS. Stop being so sensitive & dramatic.
 
redman5 said:
Who gets to write the rules on 'legendary status' ? The moment Alex Ferguson & the likes of Hughes, Pallister, Bruce & co won United's first league title in 26 years did they not deserve the title of legends then ? Did United supporters say, " meh, let's wait until they've won a few more titles & a CL before we bestow such an accolade upon them"

Prior to VVD arriving at Liverpool Alan Hansen & Mark Lawrenson were the best centre-backs I'd ever seen wearing a LFC shirt. Our Dutch centre-half blows them both out of the water. The fact that he's yet to win anywhere near what they've won in the game doesn't change that.
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I think there’s a difference between club legends and football legends though. There’s obviously a broad degree of overlap between the two, but being a legendary club figure isn’t necessarily the same as being a legendary world footballing figure.

In your United example for instance, yeah they broke United’s title drought which may have elevated them to legendary status amongst United fans back then, but that doesn’t mean they’d deserve to have been called football legends after one title win.

Just be patient man, when our team wins the title this year then yeah they’re gonna be legends for us, but it’s going to take a few more seasons of great success before everyone else starts considering them legends also.
 
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