Yeah i was going to reference the Sir Alex part but i wasn't sure if i had it right.
I wish there was a Youtube comp of Rio's performance against Torres/Liverpool at Anfield in 2008 because he absolutely bossed the game.
Virgil van Dijk | Performances
- Thread starter Samid
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I wish there was a Youtube comp of Rio's performance against Torres/Liverpool at Anfield in 2008 because he absolutely bossed the game.
On the subject of Drogba (sorry), I happened to randomly end up with tickets to Chelsea's final CL group stage game against Valencia in 11/12 (when they ended up winning the whole thing). Drogba's performance that day remains the single best individual performance I've ever seen in the flesh.
Vidic has been the best CB of the premier league era.. simple as that. To say VVD is better is ridiculous.. personally I rate Kompany higher than VVD. He influenced City winning titles much more than he has for Liverpool.
once again, demonstrating why you are the best Liverpool poster on the forum. You never get carried away, don’t gloat, and make great points.
Van Dijk came 7 points short (out of nearly 700) of a Ballon d'Or. Carragher's ridiculous bias is closely matched by some of the counter posts here.
It is just a different perspective. Maybe for you doing well in one year is good enough to be called best. Not everyone need to agree to that criteria.
VVD's peak is up there with any CB, but his decline has been steep. Can't call him the best PL CB based on a 3-year run.
Not here to defend VVD as the hype and plaudits he got 1-2 seasons ago was way over the top. I feel it's now swung the other way with people calling him terrible and he was never good anyway.
I keep hear people saying he was good for 2-3 seasons which I feel is unfair. Looking at Vidic, Rio & Terry etc, it's not like they were world class from 18-35. Rio was a good CB who would lose concentration and cost his team up until the 06/07 season then he had 4-5 really good seasons. VVD was a top player for Southampton which may be weighted differently against him as it's not a top team which is fair enough, but having 3 seasons at a world class level is very difficult and not in anyway comparable to the likes of Papiss Cisse who had a good six good months.
I don't see the major issue with VVD being in the discussion as the best CB the PL has seen. IMO, I don't think he is but he's certainly in the top 10.
I keep hear people saying he was good for 2-3 seasons which I feel is unfair. Looking at Vidic, Rio & Terry etc, it's not like they were world class from 18-35. Rio was a good CB who would lose concentration and cost his team up until the 06/07 season then he had 4-5 really good seasons. VVD was a top player for Southampton which may be weighted differently against him as it's not a top team which is fair enough, but having 3 seasons at a world class level is very difficult and not in anyway comparable to the likes of Papiss Cisse who had a good six good months.
I don't see the major issue with VVD being in the discussion as the best CB the PL has seen. IMO, I don't think he is but he's certainly in the top 10.
It was a good explanation to be fair, and I do agree with you. A long time ago there was a thread along the lines of 'who did you used to overrate but no longer do' and Drogba was my entry. I used to argue till I was blue in my face that he was Henry’s equal in my younger days but I eventually came to accept that he was actually a level below the guys who were a level below Henry. Still though, I will never not leap to his defence when duty calls
He was fantastic. Now he's not looking so fantastic. It happens, every dog has its day and all that. No need to suddenly have an extreme reaction to a natural process in football. All top players eventually become far lesser players, it doesn't mean they were not top level.
I'm seeing a player that seems to have slower reactions, slower across the turf, and is probably aware of both these things as he's very much a thinking player. Which I think has probably impacted his confidence. Because while he was never an aggressive, dominant personality he certainly had an authority about his work and that composure has ebbed away. That's confidence and probably realising he isn't the same player.
He needs to adapt his game to the next stage. Whether that will be easy to achieve at Liverpool under Klopp I am not so sure. Klopp generally has one overarching ideal of how football should be played and it's not necessarily one that is easy for aging legs in defence.
I will say though that I don't think that defence gets the same protection anymore. Without the energy of the forwards that they used to have, and with the midfield all hitting an age together, it has left them all exposed. I don't think it's coincidence that him, TAA and a few others all look shit together. It seems like Konate is the one who can handle the state of play.
I'm seeing a player that seems to have slower reactions, slower across the turf, and is probably aware of both these things as he's very much a thinking player. Which I think has probably impacted his confidence. Because while he was never an aggressive, dominant personality he certainly had an authority about his work and that composure has ebbed away. That's confidence and probably realising he isn't the same player.
He needs to adapt his game to the next stage. Whether that will be easy to achieve at Liverpool under Klopp I am not so sure. Klopp generally has one overarching ideal of how football should be played and it's not necessarily one that is easy for aging legs in defence.
I will say though that I don't think that defence gets the same protection anymore. Without the energy of the forwards that they used to have, and with the midfield all hitting an age together, it has left them all exposed. I don't think it's coincidence that him, TAA and a few others all look shit together. It seems like Konate is the one who can handle the state of play.
VvD is seen to be 'better' than he really is because we're watching football in a time where there's a shocking lack of quality CBs.
European football in the mid 00s had Rio, Vidic, Terry, Carvalho, Campbell, Cannavaro, Nesta, Maldini, Puyol, Ramos all plying their trade. Then you had the likes of King, Gallas, Desailly (tail end of his career), Blanc (as above), Carragher who at that point in time were a step down.
There's a few good CBs around now, but I wouldn't say they're at the same level as the likes we saw 15 years ago.
European football in the mid 00s had Rio, Vidic, Terry, Carvalho, Campbell, Cannavaro, Nesta, Maldini, Puyol, Ramos all plying their trade. Then you had the likes of King, Gallas, Desailly (tail end of his career), Blanc (as above), Carragher who at that point in time were a step down.
There's a few good CBs around now, but I wouldn't say they're at the same level as the likes we saw 15 years ago.
Regarding Drogba, I think he was somewhat underrated. The only reason that Chelsea were able to compete (and beat) better footballing sides like Barca was because Drogba was a one man army who could make any hopeful hoof up to him stick. The likes of Aguero and Suarez wouldn't have been able to do that. I think the fact that he was clearly the worst diver in the history of a league that once featured Robert Pires tarnishes his reputation (along with the fact that he wasn't allowed to boost his goal tally with pens).
On VVD, even if we disregard longevity and trophies, I still think that he was below Vida, Rio, JT, Carvalho, Sol, Stam, and McGrath. His "back off the oppo striker rather than tackle him to protect his reputation for not being dribbled past at the detriment of his own team" style wasn't one that I'd associate with a truly great CB.
On VVD, even if we disregard longevity and trophies, I still think that he was below Vida, Rio, JT, Carvalho, Sol, Stam, and McGrath. His "back off the oppo striker rather than tackle him to protect his reputation for not being dribbled past at the detriment of his own team" style wasn't one that I'd associate with a truly great CB.
I honestly don't even know if he's Liverpool's best CB. People forget how good Hyypiä was when he came.
If everyone is so much better years ago and nobody meets your standard now, then maybe you need to look at greater trends of the game - mainly that football was as defensive as it's ever been in the past 30 years in the mid 00s, the dominant manager was Jose Mourinho and his views permeated in the same way that Guardiola and Klopp's do now. Chelsea for example had brilliant defensive records but won the league scoring only 72 goals.
By comparison, City and Arsenal have scored 75 and 72 goals respectively this season... and there's still 9 games left for City. In that context, defenders are going to concede more goals, and break far fewer defensive records. So won't stand out as much.
Strikers score more now than they did then, you wouldn't say there was a shocking lack of quality CFs in the mid 00s because Haaland is making their records look crap by comparison.
Lukaku, Higuain, Immobile way outscored Shevchenko, Vieri, Totti and the likes in Italy, are they better players or did the game change?
You’re inadvertently proving his point. If defending is worse, strikers will score more.
Nah, Van Dijk is levels above.
Yeah exactly. I don't think Van Dijk is as good as Vidic but I would probably have Vidic and then Van Dijk competing with Terry and Ferdinand as my two centre backs in an all-time PL XI. Van Dijk is only 31, so it depends how he reacts to this bad season, if he recovers or not.
Depends on your perspective, glass half full or glass half empty sort of thing, but looking at very wider trends of goals per game in the Premier League going from 2.4 or 2.5 per game to 2.8 per game, is that defenders being worse or managers setting up more attacking? I think there's a strong body of evidence it's the latter. There is something to be said in managers favouring ball-playing to a fault over proper defending, but overall the average team is set up way more attacking than 20 years ago.
Yeah if you only go off the games he played well against Vidic in, and ignore all the games he didn’t score then he definitely had Vidic’s number
How is that any different to what I've said. This isn't the victory you think it is.
No way, Rio was twice the defender Vidic was, although he was a warrior, he had no where near the longevity or ability of Rio who’s possibly the greatest CB of our time.
I remember a beautiful gif on the caf (was only a lurker back then
) after a corner in that game and Torres, fed up, turns and waits for Rio. Tries squaring up to him, Rio puts his hands up like 'I'm not doing anything ref' and proceeds to chest Torres out of the road. Fecking brilliant Vidic's games against Torres at Liverpool
December 2007: Liverpool 0 United 1 - Vidic clean sheet vs Torres
March 2008: United 3 Liverpool 0 - Vidic clean sheet vs Torres
March 2009: United 1 Liverpool 4 - the infamous game
September 2009: Liverpool 2 United 0 - not great, but Ferdinand caught out more than Vidic although Vidic was sent off
March 2010: United 2 Liverpool 1 - Torres scored
September 2010: United 3 Liverpool 2 - Torres doesn't score, but fouled for both Liverpool goals. Evans and O'Shea the foulers though
Nah, Ferdinand is mad overrated, he was never that good outside of people's heads.
December 2007: Liverpool 0 United 1 - Vidic clean sheet vs Torres
March 2008: United 3 Liverpool 0 - Vidic clean sheet vs Torres
March 2009: United 1 Liverpool 4 - the infamous game
September 2009: Liverpool 2 United 0 - not great, but Ferdinand caught out more than Vidic although Vidic was sent off
March 2010: United 2 Liverpool 1 - Torres scored
September 2010: United 3 Liverpool 2 - Torres doesn't score, but fouled for both Liverpool goals. Evans and O'Shea the foulers though
Nah, Ferdinand is mad overrated, he was never that good outside of people's heads.
If it's a straight off battle of peak Van Dijk vs peak Vidic, then Van Dijk wins on most metrics, pace, passing, aerial ability, goal scoring threat, leadership, one on one defending, I genuinely struggle to see where Vidic is better?
Liverpool were a defensive laughing stock before Van Dijk came in, and I don't think signing Vidic even at his peak would have made the same impact for them.
In terms of all time greatest Premier League centre back then there's not much in it between Van Dijk, Terry, Kompany and Ferdinand.
Liverpool were a defensive laughing stock before Van Dijk came in, and I don't think signing Vidic even at his peak would have made the same impact for them.
In terms of all time greatest Premier League centre back then there's not much in it between Van Dijk, Terry, Kompany and Ferdinand.
Sol Campbell always gets forgotten in these lists, for me a much better player than Kompany for one
Football was by no means more defensive in the 00s then it was previously. Consider the Italian style of playing in the 80s and early 90s as the benchmark of gold standard.
Although Mourinho was around, you still had the likes of SAF, Wenger, Riijkard, del Bosque, Aragones in that same timespan - none of these managers you'd consider defensive. Even now, you have managers that are defence first (Conte, Mourinho, Simeone) along with attack minded managers. This will never change. There's no 1 correct way of playing football. It's just understanding what the dominant style is and, if it suits your team, how to mitigate it.
This just proves my point. Teams will probably score more if there is a scarcity of good defenders around.
The game has geared towards stats, G&A, maximising output as well but it's indicative of defenders just not being as good as they used to.
Vidic was considered one of the best in an era littered with quality defenders.
Van Dijk was absolutely the best for 3 years as a minimum in an era littered with CBs whose best attributes aren't even the defending part.
Vidic was as transformative for us as Van Dijk was for them without the world record fee, just as Ronaldo flicking the switch for us and Salah becoming the best scoring winger of all time for them.
Van Dijk was absolutely the best for 3 years as a minimum in an era littered with CBs whose best attributes aren't even the defending part.
Vidic was as transformative for us as Van Dijk was for them without the world record fee, just as Ronaldo flicking the switch for us and Salah becoming the best scoring winger of all time for them.
Finishing high on one of the Ballon d'Or lists isn't the best metric to measure a player's greatness. Jorginho came third in 2021 at a time when most Chelsea fans agreed that he wasn't even the best midfielder at Chelsea that year.
I'm sorry what?
Defenders aren't worse, football is just more attacking so they are more exposed.
Many of the greats from the early naughties would get eaten alive playing the high line that Liverpool do with the same aggressive fullbacks.
Even potential goats like Baresi would struggle in this Liverpool.
It's no coincidence stuff like "Pique can't defend" was a thing. "Cafu can't defend" was also a thing but in reality both went on to shape modern football.
Defenders aren't worse they are just asked to do more with less help.
Many of the greats from the early naughties would get eaten alive playing the high line that Liverpool do with the same aggressive fullbacks.
Even potential goats like Baresi would struggle in this Liverpool.
It's no coincidence stuff like "Pique can't defend" was a thing. "Cafu can't defend" was also a thing but in reality both went on to shape modern football.
Defenders aren't worse they are just asked to do more with less help.
Spoken like a true Scouser.
Doesn't that say more about your signings? Also, Alisson made just as big if not a bigger impact imo.
He is right, Rio was great but by reading some posts on here you would think he is in top 5 CB's ever, he is not. Great but overrated. And he was hardly twice the defender Vidić was, I chuckled when I read that.
What was VVD's best season for Liverpool? I'm not sure this data is correct so apologies if it's wrong but i looked up VVD 19-20 vs Vidic 08-09 and passing and build up play easily goes to VVD but Vidic's defensive stats are insane in comparison. 360 clearances and 223 headed clearances . That can not be right?
here is the site https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison
Vidic's second best season for us was 10-11 and the numbers are really impressive again there.
. That can not be right?here is the site https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison
Vidic's second best season for us was 10-11 and the numbers are really impressive again there.
No, no and no. Apart from those Vidić was better at least at tackling, marking and blocking shots. Wonder where VVD's brilliant leadership qualities have been this season when the team has needed him the most? He's been one of their worst performers.
He's often picked by his peers as the best ever, how is he mad overrated? People who played against him literally say he's the best defender they ever faced, in an era where defenders were actually good.
What does outside of people's heads mean? He cost a world record transfer fee, that's pretty outside of people's heads if you ask me.
Vidic was better and more effective than Ferdinand and the key to that partnership in my opinion, the idea that Ferdinand is twice the player of him and the best defender of his generation is typical of the sort of posts you get around here every so often. Ferdinand struggled with poor concentration sometimes and wasn't the same quality in the air as some of his world-class peers despite his height. It was the perfect partnership then with Vidic, but he needed the dominant Vidic to do a lot for him. Just because he was more elegant than Vidic doesn't mean he was a better and more effective defender.
There's quite a romantic view of Ferdinand as this sort of Beckenbauer type ball-playing centre back gliding across the ground and perfect defender whereas he wasn't as good as that, first few years and last few years at United in particular he had plenty of bad games. 2006 to 2009 he was excellent but Vidic was better from 2008 onwards.
Vidic was twice on World XI, Ferdinand once.
Vidic was twice Premier League Player of the Season, Ferdinand never
Vidic United player of the season, Ferdinand never
Vidic 3 times ESM team of the year, Ferdinand once
So where are you getting that he's twice the defender Vidic was? I'm guessing it's purely on the fact he was more elegant to watch, so that's what I mean about people's heads.
Absolutely insane takes on Rio on this page
He's shit