Im not questioning his talent in relation to his age. I simply wouldnt call him a top top player just yet. Give it two more seasons.
Vinicius Junior
- Thread starter jackofalltrades
- Start date
It's not possible for them to see any issue there because since their childhood they have probably seen one every year during Christmas in their own local town at the so called "Cabalgata de los Reyes Magos".
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I dont know why this discussion is in the Vincicius Junior thread but that last part isnt so bad as in people not getting it or seeing why it could be a issue for people. There are many examples of that last part.
Here in the Netherlands we have Sinterklaas as a tradition. Its basically the Dutch Santa. A white man who comes from Spain with presents for the children and his helpers are all blackface. There has been a nation wide discussion about it for years now, people have blockaded highways, thrown bricks through windows of people/groups that dont agree with blackface and grown ups were rioting and fighting during the Sinterklaas parade near little kids. There are some videos where little kids are trying to stop their parents from fighting
I never knew about Sinterklaas until that Atlanta episode, and I still thought it was made up.
I agree, in the top five. I would even put him third, behind Haaland and Mbappe. His champions league and his goal in the final definitely elevated him.
I dont know why this discussion is in the Vincicius Junior thread but that last part isnt so bad as in people not getting it or seeing why it could be a issue for people. There are many examples of that last part.
Here in the Netherlands we have Sinterklaas as a tradition. Its basically the Dutch Santa. A white man who comes from Spain with presents for the children and his helpers are all blackface. There has been a nation wide discussion about it for years now, people have blockaded highways, thrown bricks through windows of people/groups that dont agree with blackface and grown ups were rioting and fighting during the Sinterklaas parade near little kids. There are some videos where little kids are trying to stop their parents from fighting
You don't see why its an issue to dress up in blackface?
In terms of opportunities for ethnic minorities and their general treatment you mean?
He's top 2 LW in the world, only behind Mbappe.
I think he is approaching the big 3 category alongside Haaland and Mbappe.
Are Spanish people not able to evolve in the way that others are? There is plenty of stuff I've heard and seen in Ireland over the last 30 years that is clearly unacceptable to me now(when it wasn't at the time), but it seems like every time we have these conversations on this forum, there is a large Spanish contingent that just makes excuses for why things aren't racist, instead of just moving with the times. Similar posts from Italians too.
If you call them black, people of color, or whatever, while also comparing them to a monkey and telling them to feck off to their country because of the way they dance. Then it's something super offensive with a lot of racist and xenophobic connotations all over it.
The way I see it this more like the equivalent of confronting someone if they start talking in a foreign language while also giving them crap about how they need to adapt to our culture.
We've been doing that a lot recently but Vinicius stands out because of how persistent and hardworking he has been and how surprising his improvement was last season. One of the reasons was we were saving some money for Mbappe and having few additions in the attack since Ronaldo left but with other young players we tend to try them for a season or two, see if they work out and if not move them on rather quick.
Vinicius has demostrated to have a top mentality, there is a lot of pressure if you're a starter for Real Madrid and don't deliver. At one point there were videos of him being criticized by his own teammates but he didn't sulk and never gave up. So I think is his mentality that has helped him reach his current level and is something not all players have.
I believe that for this particular case it is necessary to strictly analyze the two radically different phenomena we are referring to.
Your country Ireland belongs to the Anglosphere. It shares language and traditions with United States and Britain, where black face was mostly used to portray a caricature of a black person. The connotations of such an act are therefore very well circumscribed.
The Cabalgatas originated around the same era with no connection with United States and Britain whatsoever. The main purpose was to play the role of King Balthazar, who by the way is the favorite out of the three Wise Men among most kids. Since it was impossible to find people with the same race to play that role, the actors had no option other than painting their faces so the tradition remained.
The main difference is in Britain and United States the custom was to mock black people, whereas in countries with Cabalgatas, Balthazar is admired and loved. Cultural colonialism from United States is huge pretty much everywhere but luckily or unluckily (depending on the stuff they import) they do not influence every country the same way.
To me this a completely different case to Pedro Bravo using expressions like "making the monkey" or "go back to Brazil". And obviously radically different to those disgusting Atletico fans singing "Vinicius, you are a monkey" out of the stadium.
Essentially every black person I've ever heard discuss the issue of people painting their faces to portray a black person has had an issue with it. It doesn't matter where it originated from, or in what context it is done, the majority of black people today do not agree with it. Every instance of 'blackface' in the history of the 'anglosphere' was not done to mock black people, either.
Harsh language and ridicule is a staple of Redcafe culture, and has been so for around 20 years. Maybe you haven't integrated yet because you're new?
I’d agree too. Although I also rate Pedri highly, so either him or Pedri for me.
Even aside from all that, the simple fact of the matter is the reigning Spanish and European champions run their entire attack through him, and it works so well we're the reigning Spanish and European champions
I get where you're coming from but there's been backlash over that within Spain as well. Nowadays people in Spain tend to know that is offensive, regardless of tradition or intent. Where they can communities try to get an actual black man to play the role. The problem is they don't care enough not to do it anyways
Even Iniesta did it ffs
Covid helped, not gonna lie
Good answer. GatoLoco seems like a hood bloke, but he just underlined the point he was answering to. Where do we draw the line? «It’s a term of endearment I tells ya!»
Justice for blackface?
I agree that societies should evolve if part of the population find some customs offensive. It is a matter of sensitivity.
However, it's important to remark that context and origins are important to explain why certain developments are made at different pace. Since you made a question about that specific matter (evolving of a specific society) in one of your posts, I thought my answer was informative and provided a new focus a big majority of people didn't know about.
Now many societies are changing at big pace due to the new characteristics of the inmigration and the eclosion of Internet which is the most important tool to spread new ideas worldwide. While Internet was developed at the same time in most countries in the western world, the characteristics of the inmigration and the initial connotations were completely different, so that may help explain why the changes are different too.
It's because it wasn't the plan, Hazard was supposed to start, Vinicius benefited greatly from Hazard being injured/bad. Good for him.
I'm the same and I can't shake it. He obviously put outsanding numbers last season and seems to continue (especially in the CL because in la liga, we've seen players like Sarabia having comparable performance sheets and he's obviously not a top player) but I just can't see him as an elite player and feel his good spell could end at any time. It's just a feeling though, there's no tangible explanation. The WC will be a good start since he's been pretty disapointing with his NT so far, then the big test will be how he fares in a different sytstem without Benzema.
He has surprised me over last few months no doubt but i still think its because he plays for an Ancelotti machine, a group of players that has a huge amount of luck and a winning mentality.
In my opinion Vini Jr is just another Mane.
In my opinion Vini Jr is just another Mane.
I just wish his name was Vicinius Junior. It rolls off the tongue better.
According to Espn Brasil members of a spanish show called El Chiringuito tried to convince Vinicius to not release a video talking about the racists comments from Pedro Bravo in that program, because this would "make them look bad."
At some point the members of the Chiringuito threatened Vinicius staff saying they would destroy him if he insists on doing the video. Apparently after Atleti x Real Madrid they started a campaign against Vinicius in the program.
My prediction: the player will be in the market very soon.
At some point the members of the Chiringuito threatened Vinicius staff saying they would destroy him if he insists on doing the video. Apparently after Atleti x Real Madrid they started a campaign against Vinicius in the program.
My prediction: the player will be in the market very soon.
You think a few racists idiots from the dumbest spanish channel will make him leave the biggest club in the world ?
Spanish people forget very quickly. If nothing happened when the audios of Florentino Pérez talking shit about a bunch of Real Madrid legends and how he controls the media were revealed, then don't expect much to happen now.
He is the Golden Boy of Madrid. His contract extension was top priority this season. Perez is very aware of how getting rid of Vini for speaking out against racism, would impact Madrid’s image in markets like the US. He is going nowhere.
So, world class and of the best wing forwards in the world?
Agreed. He's not long scored the winning goal in the Champions League final ffs.
I love Vinicius. He's superb.
Could say the same about Havertz tbf.
Yes, it is odd. I've worked with a few Spaniards over here and the stuff that we have evolved in the UK to understand as not okay to say anymore in the workplace i.e referring to someone as your Pakistani Friend (But shortened) etc., they didn't understand why it wasn't fine to reference like that. They were from different regions of Spain too so it wasn't like it was a city specific issue.
What a disappointing thread. Seriously, really fecking disappointing
Nope. What will happen is El Chiringuito will change a lot of their personnel after Florentino is through with them
Tic tac!
No.
Real Madrid released a statement condemning racists comments against Vinicius.
One of the journalists (Inaki Angulo) informing about this Chiringuito-Vinicius clash is said to be close to Real Madrid.
El Chiringuito is meaningless compared to Vinicius. They wish they had the power to influence so much in the world of football.
Understanding that such expression is offensive in UK is extremely simple once it is explained. It is what it is. If some people do not understand they have an issue no matter their nationality.
Referring the the city of origin in Spain to explain the issue is 100% irrelevant, as that expression you mention is not used anywhere in Spain at all.
I was more pointing to the fact and using that as an example to how racism issues in Spain are seen differently than in other countries. There are other examples but that was the first from the top of my head.
I get your point but since I am not inside your head I can only comment on the anecdotal experience you share, not the one you do not share. If you tell someone that an expression is offensive and that person does not understand that, it is quite likely that person is a misguided idiot in many areas of life not just one.