You replied to my original post first for no reason mate. I never engage a conversation with you first. Why are you still replying and so obsessed with me, you mentioned nothing about Lindelof at all.
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You replied to my original post first for no reason mate. I never engage a conversation with you first. Why are you still replying and so obsessed with me, you mentioned nothing about Lindelof at all.
We bought Varane for a reason. Why can’t you understand and accept the reason we bought Varane is because Lindelof hasn’t been good enough for us as regular CB?
You can't expect to get away with making a post about how you can't believe this thread is so much longer than the Varane thread, when you're one of the biggest reasons for it. Coincidentally, your prolificacy in this thread is the biggest reason for why I've ended up engaging with you three whole times.
Even better, you keep replying to A-man, regardless of who he's engaged in a discussion with, yet you get mad at both @macheda14 and me for replying to you.
Anyway, if you're that touchy about people replying to you, maybe you should stop posting on a public forum? You seem to be confused about how they work.
Please talk about something relevant to the thread, don't talk about me. I'm not posting in Lindelof thread to talk about me. Feel free to reply as long as you stick to what this thread is about.
This thread is about Lindelof and so far your post has no indication about the thread at all but you only obsessed about me. I replied to A-man about Lindelof. I don't know why are you so obsessed about me in Lindelof's thread, you have issue with me that I have no idea what it is.
Edit: You can PM me if you have personal issue with me. I'm not in this thread to talk about it though.
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We bought Varane for a reason, absolutely. He is an overall better defender than Lindelof and he will replace him in the starting xi. By doing that we strengthen the team. That is not the same as Lindelof was a problem. The big CB problem was when one of Lindelof or Maguire didn’t play.
Lindelof and Maguire as a pair hardly lost a game in the PL and in the draws they got, almost all of them were clean sheets. It was when one of them was missing we got problems. That’s when we got out most humiliating loss against Spurs, a very unnecessary loss vs Sheffield United, and our two most costly losses in the major cups: Istanbul away that cost us the CL and the EL final.
Look at the results with and without Lindelof/Maguire in the PL:
Victor and Harry (26 games):
24 goals conceded = 0.92 per game
2 lost matches
56 points= 2.15 per game
58 goals scored = 2.25 per game
Victor and/or Harry missing (12 games):
20 goals conceded=1.67 per game
4 lost matches
18 points= 1.5/game
15 goals scored = 1.25 per game
The effect of upgrading our third CB (Lindelof instead of Bailly) might have just as big effect as upgrading our starting xi (Varane for Lindelof).
(Of course that depends on many things like injuries, Varane adapting to the PL, etc. )
Those stats are blinding you because for instance the ones who played vs Sheffield United (home) and Spurs (home) were Matic and Pogba in midfield. Thus, we conceded more goals when those two played together last season. Another example, we had Matic & Pogba pair vs Sheffield United (away) with Lindelof played and we still conceded 2 goals just like the home game when Lindelof didn't play. So this conceded goals only play trick on you, you should watch the match whether Lindelof has actually been good enough for us to be our regular CB or no.
You know if the problem is if one of Lindelof or Maguire didn't play, we could actually spend a cheaper money (wages or fees) than Varane and save some of the money for that midfielder without selling players first. But we didn't because Lindelof hasn't been good enough for Man United regular CB. Not good that it forced us to prioritise the CB over midfield.
This is the problem with using stats alone, to form arguments - without context, this can be seen as a really strong foundation for an argument - but with context added, can become quite weak.
We gained 31 points from losing positions in the PL last season (10 wins & 1 draw - source) we gained double the amount of points in comparison to the club 2nd in the table, and while our record of going down a goal and getting 2/3 goals back to win last season was amazing - it masked over our defensive issues. And it's unrealistic to expect us to go on a similar run again. I'm not going to get into hypotheticals, but it's clear that our defence wasn't as strong as it should've been last season, but our attack saved us more often than not.
I posted a video of our comeback wins last season and Lindelof is at the heart of a lot of goals we conceded, so it's no surprise to see that coaching team agree that this is a target area for improvement.
For context, 38*0.92 ~= 35 goals per season which puts us second best defensively in the league.
It's hard to say if having Varane in the side will allow us to push up more and be more aggressive in attack. I suspect we'll have to wait and see over the course of a season what happens to things like xG, possession, goals scored etc.
Despite the stats, to me it's pretty clear that Lindelof is terrible at defending that first direct ball to a striker. He always lets the ball bounce instead of contesting the header and that either results in a throw in (either for us / the opposition) deep in our half or a 1v1 against him if the striker manages to get the ball under control. Neither of these is a good outcome.
Who is this everybody? It seems everybody are against you for that particular posts because it's unclear.
It means that a lot of those wins only came about through a massive effort by the attacking portion of the squad. 1/3 PL wins with Lindelof & Maguire partnership came from losing positions - that's just not sustainable and points to a weak defence.
Not really sure what the point of bringing up 2012/13 is either, we won the league by 11 points and the gulf between the top 4 and the rest of the league was huge, going down 1-0 against Aston Villa & Southampton 10 years ago vs going down 1-0 against those same team now mean completely different things. Plus our defenders that season were a mix of Rio with a bad back, and Vidic with sand for knees, and Evans with occasional appearances from Jones & Smalling - again, stats without context mean nothing.
“Even Goldenblunder off the Caf told us.. and you know what Carra, he was right”
The problem with the stats is its impossible to know Lindelof's influence on them especially as compared to another player from another team in his spot. They could have performed better or worse and we wouldnt know unless they signed for us and played all the matches he did.
What I can say is Maguire looked at his best at the Euros next to Stones, another one of the best CBs in the league last season.
What I can say is Maguire looked at his best at the Euros next to Stones, another one of the best CBs in the league last season.
Nonsense.
5 months back, Neville said Lindelof would do extremely well alongside Rio or VVD. But he is stuck with Maguire.
But as Maguire is an 80M asset, there is no chance that he will be dropped.
He won’t get dropped because he’s twice the defender Lindelof is
That's what you think.
But my point being Neville now calling Varane as Maguire's partner is not actually down to Neville thinking Lindelof is useless.
You realise my post was taking the piss right?
regarding Neville, the way I read that tweet in isolation is that he’s saying that others said we needed a partner for maguire
He's a good CB. The problem with us was, he and Maguire needed to play so many games; because our squad CBs were disaster. Lindelof had to be rushed back, even though he had back issue. It did affecting your performance time to time.
Now with Varane, we have 3 CBs that i don't have problem when pairing any of them.
Now with Varane, we have 3 CBs that i don't have problem when pairing any of them.
Having Maguire, Varane and Lindelof as our first three choice cbs puts us in a very strong position. You can genuinely rotate without suffering a huge dip in quality. Maguire and Lindelof have that understanding from playing together for a while. Varane is a big increase in quality over Lindelof, but having Lindelof as third choice means that you don’t have to burn out either of the other two, and take so many risks over their fitness. Last year we really suffered when one of them was out. The added depth is almost as important as the added first XI quality.
The drop off to Bailly and Jones after is alarming, and I’d imagine next season we may invest in a young, high potential CB for the future. That may be Tuanzebe if he had a successful loan, but it’s just as likely he’ll be sold to raise funds.
The drop off to Bailly and Jones after is alarming, and I’d imagine next season we may invest in a young, high potential CB for the future. That may be Tuanzebe if he had a successful loan, but it’s just as likely he’ll be sold to raise funds.
Did he say "he is stuck with Maguire"?
Maguire won't be dropped because he is significantly better CB than Lindelof. It's not a problem though, you can't have squad full of only very good players. You need rotational and back up players too. We knew which was the weak position and glad that club improved on that by signing much better CB than Lindelof.
He didn't say stuck with Maguire. But he said the way Maguire plays is not compatible with Lindelof and the way Lindelof plays is not compatible with Maguire. If you put Lindelof alongside some big name defender (Rio or VVD), it would work. So one of them has to be changed and because Maguire is someone on whom we spent 80M, it will definitely not be him that gets dropped.
He did not say Lindelof is a poor defender or anything of that sort.
Please find your link and paste it here. I highly suspect he said that.
Agree. We almost have the perfect mix at CB now except, as you say, a promising young player as 4th choice. The fanboyism and "anti player X" has made people insane on this forum. We are finally building a proper squad to challenge on all fronts again.
Don't see why so much back and forth going on in here.
Lindelof is a good CB. But is Varane better? Yes. Will we be better off (assuming Varane hits the ground running) with a Varane + Maguire partnership? Yes.
Is Lindelof a better third choice CB than Bailly? Yes. Win-win for the club.
Lindelof is a good CB. But is Varane better? Yes. Will we be better off (assuming Varane hits the ground running) with a Varane + Maguire partnership? Yes.
Is Lindelof a better third choice CB than Bailly? Yes. Win-win for the club.
Exactly. Varane strengthens us in every way, but it doesn't mean Lindelof is a bad player. He will still have a big part to play and will be expected to play 10-20 games a season for us. It's just that Varane will be the best defender in the club.
I do not need stats to see the absolute basics:
1) Lindelof is not tall enough. Okay but can he jump high enough? Nope! He does a job. But that's about it. Average.
2) Lindelof is not strong enough. He's been in the prem for years and yet he's not built up a physique like VDB managed in ONE summer. He gets bullied all the time.
3) Lindelof is not fast enough. He's not slow, but when playing beside Harry Maguire, you need to balance that with Varane like speed. He doesn't have it.
Ask yourselves... when was the last time we had a CB who had none of these assets at an elite level. Blind was makeshift, let's not go there. Let's look at our glorious history of CB's and see how they fare. Even bringing in some who weren't all time greats but showed their qualities and played a lot for United:
1) Steve Bruce - He's shorter, slower and less talented than Lindelof but scored 50 goals for United! Was a monster in the air. Strong as a bull too. He would have died for United.
2) Gary Pallister - 6'4, Beast in the air with an unusually good touch for the time. Faster than given credit for too.
3) Jaap Staam - He only played 50 games, but let's not even compare. He was Van Dijk before Van Dijk. A MONSTER.
4) Mikel Silvestre - Shorter than Lindelof but much much faster with a fine eye for a pass. No mug in the air either. He had a relentless engine too.
4) Rio Ferdinand - No comparison. Had all three assets. All time great.
5) Nemanja Vidic - No Comparison. One of our GOATS. As fast as Lindelof, but the most dominant heading machine of the time, with the strength to take on prime Drogba.
6) Wes Brown - Had pace, power... maybe not as aerially dominant as the others. But held the fort with Jaap.
7) Chris Smalling - Pace, power and heading ability. His error prone ways changed later on but his passing became a liability.
8) Phil Jones - Had pace, power and heading. Injuries cost him everything.
9) Harry Maguire - Slabhead as he is the most dominant heading force on the planet. Powerful as well. But on the slower side.
There is a theme here... a premier league centre back CANNOT be redundant in all 3 aspects of pace, power and heading ability. He can pass like Iniesta for all I care, but the intangibles yo will never see in a stat sheet like trust and mentality. Lindelof superfans are in for a shock when they see just how huge a difference Varane will make. Maguire for England is wall, and he will be for United as well. Because he no longer has to cover the entire box to head. He has Rapha Varane.
1) Lindelof is not tall enough. Okay but can he jump high enough? Nope! He does a job. But that's about it. Average.
2) Lindelof is not strong enough. He's been in the prem for years and yet he's not built up a physique like VDB managed in ONE summer. He gets bullied all the time.
3) Lindelof is not fast enough. He's not slow, but when playing beside Harry Maguire, you need to balance that with Varane like speed. He doesn't have it.
Ask yourselves... when was the last time we had a CB who had none of these assets at an elite level. Blind was makeshift, let's not go there. Let's look at our glorious history of CB's and see how they fare. Even bringing in some who weren't all time greats but showed their qualities and played a lot for United:
1) Steve Bruce - He's shorter, slower and less talented than Lindelof but scored 50 goals for United! Was a monster in the air. Strong as a bull too. He would have died for United.
2) Gary Pallister - 6'4, Beast in the air with an unusually good touch for the time. Faster than given credit for too.
3) Jaap Staam - He only played 50 games, but let's not even compare. He was Van Dijk before Van Dijk. A MONSTER.
4) Mikel Silvestre - Shorter than Lindelof but much much faster with a fine eye for a pass. No mug in the air either. He had a relentless engine too.
4) Rio Ferdinand - No comparison. Had all three assets. All time great.
5) Nemanja Vidic - No Comparison. One of our GOATS. As fast as Lindelof, but the most dominant heading machine of the time, with the strength to take on prime Drogba.
6) Wes Brown - Had pace, power... maybe not as aerially dominant as the others. But held the fort with Jaap.
7) Chris Smalling - Pace, power and heading ability. His error prone ways changed later on but his passing became a liability.
8) Phil Jones - Had pace, power and heading. Injuries cost him everything.
9) Harry Maguire - Slabhead as he is the most dominant heading force on the planet. Powerful as well. But on the slower side.
There is a theme here... a premier league centre back CANNOT be redundant in all 3 aspects of pace, power and heading ability. He can pass like Iniesta for all I care, but the intangibles yo will never see in a stat sheet like trust and mentality. Lindelof superfans are in for a shock when they see just how huge a difference Varane will make. Maguire for England is wall, and he will be for United as well. Because he no longer has to cover the entire box to head. He has Rapha Varane.
Good post.
The thing is his passing is massively overrated too. I'll give him credit that when he's got time and space he a can hit a really good long ball over the top, but in tight spaces he has a tendency to take the easy way out and play somebody else into trouble who's already boxed in. He loves a square 5 yard pass to AWB who's already surrounded.
I really hope Varane is as good as we hope, as it could transform our side just like VVD did for liverpool.
I'll say Lindelof's passing is in the elite category. Playing to a boxed in AWB is the team tactic. Play out from the back is a practice that quintessentially involves the full back. He's got a fair few brilliant passes going long. Thing is... this is the premier league. You need to have the physical aspects to go with the classy passing.
it just isn't. Nothing he does is elite apart from the long ball over the top.
Putting your team mate into big trouble whos already closed down isn't elite.
Daley Blind's passing was elite, Lindelof is nowhere near on the same level.
@The Red Thinker Silvestre wasn't better than Lindelof but the rest of your post is fair.
Similar but could head at least
but he got shunted out to left back then upgraded
which we’ve just done with the Swedish Baresi
He was also stronger and faster let's be real!
This is my point. Lindelof with the ball at his feet and anticipation is better. But when you don't have one of the elite physical requirements in the premier league, you will always be a liability.
I know but had to give them something to hold onto
Good posts basically debunking this 'Lindelof has really good attributes and is effective for Utd' myth. He's been massively consistent....being available and fit, which in relative terms is a pretty big achievement to be fair but the way some poeple elevate his performances and abilities like he's a high level player is ridiculous.
@The Red Thinker, you had bit of a wobble saying his passing is elite though
! I guess you're just being extremely generous and giving benefit of the doubt.Maybe! but he's a good passer regardless!Good posts basically debunking this 'Lindelof has really good attributes and is effective for Utd' myth. He's been massively consistent....being available and fit, which in relative terms is a pretty big achievement to be fair but the way some poeple elevate his performances and abilities like he's a high level player is ridiculous.
@The Red Thinker, you had bit of a wobble saying his passing is elite though
What a strange choice of slogan:
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