US Politics

How can you possibly defend this? I assume you are German and you should know that if a German politician had said this they would not be heard from again for a while. You do not ever under any circumstances compare anything to the Holocaust. The only people that do this are neo-Nazis who love to use this term for the Allied bombing of German cities. And trying to wiggle out of it citing the "academical definition" of concentration camps just makes it worse.

AOC did *not* compare the detention camps to the Holocaust, and neither did I. Auschwitz was a "Vernichtungslager", the most vile thinkable expression of a concentration camp.
But that doesn't mean a camp has to reach these levels of inhumanity to qualify as a CC.
By definition, a CC is a camp where people who are considered as undesirable by those in power get herded up, usually under humiliating conditions.
Going by what has been surfacing so far, this depiction of those ICE camps seems rather accurate.
And spare me your Neo-Nazi BS, they are not only the biggest supporters of those ICE camps, they are also, along with other rightwingers, exactly those who happily aim to extinguish any discussion by hiding behind the "It's only a CC if it has Gas Chambers"-line. One can only guess why....
 
Using the term concentration camp to describe facilities people are free to leave from is just vile and demeaning the Holocaust. The backlash from actual Holocaust survivors should tell her as much. This is not the first she has displayed an astonishing ignorance and lack of knowledge about history to make a point that suits her political agenda (hence the Trump comparison).
They are concentration camps, and people aren’t free to leave, and we have a history in the country of sending immigrants there, and using the term does not equate it to the Holocaust. Everything she said was correct. So you can stop pretending to be offended on behalf of Holocaust victims just to vent your anger at AOC.
 
It’s like when alt-right folks pretend to care about black babies just to fuel their vitriol against abortion.
 
Using the term concentration camp to describe facilities people are free to leave from is just vile and demeaning the Holocaust. The backlash from actual Holocaust survivors should tell her as much. This is not the first she has displayed an astonishing ignorance and lack of knowledge about history to make a point that suits her political agenda (hence the Trump comparison).


Once again you get angry and accuse others of things when discussing a subject you clearly know absolutely feck all about. Keeping families in camps for unspecified lengths of time, separating parents from children, making them sleep on floors, keeping many outside in wildly changing temperatures whilst denying them soap, blankets, toothpaste, decent food and medical treatment, letting many die and reports of rape and abuse by staff.....

That's a fecking concentration camp and it is no way disrespectful to anyone by saying that.

Btw, it wasn't just the Germans who used concentration camps either. This isn't the first time you have ranted and raved at a left wing politician to make a point either. Nothing AOC said was wrong, and far more support her than not hence the number of attacks against her from the cowardly right
It shows how scared they are of her. However, everything you have said in your succession of replies about her comments is completely wrong.
 
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I couldn't find anything wrong with what she said.
And while I obviously wouldn't compare it to the Holocaust as a whoIe I often think (when seeing ICE stories) that if something like that were to happen again then this is probably how it would look in its early days. It's pretty frightening.
 
They are concentration camps, and people aren’t free to leave, and we have a history in the country of sending immigrants there, and using the term does not equate it to the Holocaust. Everything she said was correct. So you can stop pretending to be offended on behalf of Holocaust victims just to vent your anger at AOC.

To me it does. Maybe this is different in the anglophone world. But then again two thirds of American millenials don't know what Auschwitz is. Anyone who does should never compare it to current US border facilities. From listening to her it is clear that she doesn't know what she is talking about which is all the more reason not to use that term.
 
To me it does. Maybe this is different in the anglophone world. But then again two thirds of American millenials don't know what Auschwitz is. Anyone who does should never compare it to current US border facilities. From listening to her it is clear that she doesn't know what she is talking about which is all the more reason not to use that term.

Well then don’t pass your opinion off as fact.

Auschwitz, the gulags, US Japanese internment camps, China/Vietnam ‘correction centers’, Khmer Rouge’s death camps are all concentration camps. The severity of treatment for the camp population varies, but they all are.
 
Well then don’t pass your opinion off as fact.

Auschwitz, the gulags, US Japanese internment camps, China/Vietnam ‘correction centers’, Khmer Rouge’s death camps are all concentration camps. The severity of treatment for the camp population varies, but they all are.

:lol: Reading his posts reminds me of the monks from Monty Python's Holy Grail, the ones singing "Pie Iesu Domine, dona eis requiem' before smacking themselves in the face with a wooden board.
 
Using the term concentration camp to describe facilities people are free to leave from is just vile and demeaning the Holocaust. The backlash from actual Holocaust survivors should tell her as much. This is not the first she has displayed an astonishing ignorance and lack of knowledge about history to make a point that suits her political agenda (hence the Trump comparison).

they are concentration camps and you are displaying an astonishing ignorance and lack of knowledge about history to make a point that suits your political agenda
 
To me it does. Maybe this is different in the anglophone world. But then again two thirds of American millenials don't know what Auschwitz is. Anyone who does should never compare it to current US border facilities. From listening to her it is clear that she doesn't know what she is talking about which is all the more reason not to use that term.
Well you may have your feelings but the fact of the matter is that they are concentration camps and they are inhumane. Just the fact that you are getting mad at her instead of ICE who are actually committing the atrocities tells me how much you care about victims of inhumane treatment.
 
“A camp where persons are confined, usually without hearings and typically under harsh conditions, often as a result of their membership in a group the government has identified as dangerous or undesirable”

Concentration Camp
 
Person 1: Al-Shabbab are holding people in concentration camps and committing atrocities....
Person 2: HOW DARE YOU CALL THOSE CONCENTRATION CAMPS!
 
Well you may have your feelings but the fact of the matter is that they are concentration camps and they are inhumane. Just the fact that you are getting mad at her instead of ICE who are actually committing the atrocities tells me how much you care about victims of inhumane treatment.

Absolutely spot on.
 
You know you're fighting with a struggling hand when you're trying to say "It's not as bad as the Holocaust"
 
How dare you call this incident where 20 people died a terrorist attack!? It's an insult to the victims of 9/11 where significantly more died. And when you call something terrorism, you're comparing it to 9/11 and that's wrong because I feel like it is.

Pagh Wraith logic.
 
First of all, I have no desire downplaying the cruelty of these camps, or ICE as an organization. I also don't know @Pagh Wraith as a poster, so I can't judge if the accusations of instrumentalizing the issue are apt or not. (What I do know is that his claim AOC is the intellectual equivalent of Trump on the left is bullshit.)

But the term concentration camp is indeed a contested one regarding its general use. So I also disagree with the notion that deeming it at least problematic is a surefire sign of historical ignorance.
 
No chance you've missed something?
Again...
“A camp where persons are confined, usually without hearings and typically under harsh conditions, often as a result of their membership in a group the government has identified as dangerous or undesirable”

Concentration Camp
I’m all ears as to how ICE’s facilities at the border do not meet that definition.
 


An explanation from reddit (the guy works on immigration rights)

I'm going to put an explainer here on just HOW feckING BAD yesterday's move was. This is all going to get into some very dark literal nazi accounting type shit, so if you're triggered by humans being discussed like cattle you've been warned. Also I use ICE but include CBP for much of this too.

Here's what happens if ICE runs out of money before the first:

The federal government goes into 'skeleton crew mode'. This means they all but stop workplace raids, they stop investigations, and basically arrests just go down significantly because they have to reduce staff and they're responsible for custody, including state custodial laws. Federal contractors get promissory notes saying they'll be paid in the future and everyone treats those as good as cash because they don't want to kill a cherry 5 year contract just because the feds are a few months late.

So why is this happening? The office of budget management basically tries to help guide the executive along with a ton of other agencies in similar roles in how to spend money. It's a pretty simple equation, for every person you arrest and every family you separate, you need to have a place to put them and people to watch them, and thus you need a pipeline that's fairly consistent. Ironically the Nazis understood this which is why their records and lines were horrifyingly efficient (brought to you by IBM).

Trump however basically just routinely tells ICE and CBP to just arrest everyone and he's giving them insane quotas and leeway on the arrest side but because their staffing is static, this means he's fecked up and created a bottle neck. The bottle neck means they're constantly short staffed on the detention side and there's literally just not enough human bodies to staff the concentration camps. Whenever Trump finds them extra cash, he tosses it straight to capture.

So the Democrats created a message about the abhorrent conditions due to all these issues and they brought up toothpaste and soap. McConnell began devising a plan and had his people begin a call to action. Democrats did the same thing too. The democrats created a funding bill in which detainees/prisoners would be required to be fed every 48 hours at a bare minimum, they'd be required to be given soap and basic hygeine items to combat the rampant flu outbreak sending people to the ICU, and most importantly that ICE would freeze it's 'bed count' and not put a dime towards expanding the concentration camps and that they only hold people for 3 months. The bill doesn't even stop ICE, it just forces them to process people faster and give humane conditions for those being processed. It even paid for judges to do faster processing.

McConnell had his people send out the message that specifying how the cash gets spent was a poison pill and that the president needs 'flexibility'. The problem with that beyond all the moral issues of supporting ICE at all, is that from a logistical standpoint every dollar ICE has that is not bolted to the floor is going straight towards arrests, intelligence (to help arrest), and investigations. The Senate, including 30ish senate democrats who are morons, passed a clean bill that only ties 10m to something you can sue over (10m in medical consumable goods). Everything else is in totally vague categories like 'transportation' which legally could include expanding arrests capacity. These words are not defined in the bill.

The bill is 3 pages long, with the first pages delineating 2b dollars to the military. For comparison, the last appropriations bill I really absorbed involved food stamps and had 20 pages of stipulations and definitions to explain how the money gets apportioned. This bill basically has a page. It ALSO includes language to give the ability for the DHS secretary to change and redirect where the loosely described categories get spent WITHOUT congressional approval, they just need to submit a report about their changes to the appropriations committee but they do not require permission.

At the same time this blank check senate bill passes, the problem solvers caucus, who's only job is to literally refuse to ever allow any budget deadline to fail, organized enough democrats in the house to block revisions to the senate bill and to approve the senate version, not the initial house version. They told Pelosi this was non-negotiable and they wouldn't hold another vote, and that if Dems fought this they'd collectively tell the press that Democrats whine about soap but are unwilling to fund it. Pelosi caved after Pence promised to inform dems within a day that they killed someone rather than now where they just refuse to report it which they're required to do by federal law and better yet, and in a stunning 'what the feck' called a vote on something that was so bad a majority of her own party wouldn't vote for it. Oh also, Pence wasn't willing to put that promise in the actual bill. It's just a straight up hand shake promise. This was so egregious two dem house reps publicly denounced No Labels/problem solvers caucus and have left it.

So now what? More than likely Trump is going to just toss as much of this cash as he can into expanding ICE's arrests yet again, and we'll be back in a few months. Any kid that would have died without the bill will also die with the bill short of Trump having some kind of 'come to jesus' moment and focusing on caring for them.

The kicker is that we had a government shutdown for weeks over a 5.7b dollar wall bill and it happened WHILE Republicans owned the house, but the democrats when they have power voted for a 4.5b dollar blank check in less than 4 days.

The ultimate irony here is the Democrats were terrified of not passing this bill because in their minds, Republicans going to the press and saying "Look at these babies trump killed! It's the democrats fault for not helping trump!" would make them look bad and not the Republicans. I can't emphasize enough, this bill will not save a single kid and it will likely kill more than would be dead otherwise unless Trump magically stops deciding to continue doing what he's done the whole time but there's no indication of that.

https://old.reddit.com/r/ChapoTrapH...fort_post_you_dont_even_know_how_insane_this/
 
I’m all ears as to how ICE’s facilities at the border do not meet that definition.
They obviously meet that definition. Which is why they (and a lot of other things connected to such treatment of immigrants) are an abomination and must disappear.

On the debate I was referring to, it is touched upon in the wiki article on the subject, which also quotes the definition you posted.
(...) the term "concentration camp" today is sometimes conflated with the concept of "extermination camp" and historians debate whether the term "concentration camp" or "internment camp" should be used to describe other examples of civilian internment.[4]
The article linked at the end is this one, which deals with both pro and con standpoints:
https://www.npr.org/sections/public...ncentration-camps-and-the-japanese-internment
 
They obviously meet that definition. Which is why they (and a lot of other things connected to such treatment of immigrants) are an abomination and must disappear.

On the debate I was referring to, it is touched upon in the wiki article on the subject, which also quotes the definition you posted.

The article linked at the end is this one, which deals with both pro and con standpoints:
https://www.npr.org/sections/public...ncentration-camps-and-the-japanese-internment

That's just picking an argument to suit your agenda though which is exactly what @Pagh Wraith did and has done in previous threads such as healthcare or abortion.

Nobody here, not one fecking person called the camps 'death camps' or 'extermination camps' NOT ONE! Neither did AOC. We all said concentration camps and PW went off on one as he usually does. Also not a surprise he hasn't come back to defend his bullshit either.

Yes people have died at these camps and yes they are horrific and inhumane but nobody compared them to the conditions the Jews, blacks and gays had to endure during WWII.

Yet again the suffering of poor people, women and children is being ignored or overshadowed by stupid arguments coming from shit stirring trolls claiming faux disgust over the use of words they don't even know the meaning of in the first place. Twitter is full of this shit as is the entire net. I had some Q nutter tell me that the native American genocide never happened and I was a history revisionist because the Natives were immigrants too and had no right to the country. It's infuriating and disgusting to be honest and it detracts and distracts from the important issues of people suffering and dying!
 
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Can we please stop these ridiculous discussions about whether these facilities holding the children are concentration camps. Of course they are concentration camps. The phrase “concentration camps” does not only apply to the holding of Jews in Nazi Germany, it applies to any similar type of holding camp anywhere in the world.

If the phrase “concentration camps” offends you then good, it should offend you. It should offend any caring person. But if you’re desperately trying to find a reason to call them anything other that I’d give up now while you still have a meagre bit of integrity left.
 
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Can’t get mad about AOC calling them concentration camps if you don’t put people in concentration camps in the first place.

*mind blown*third eye opened*
 
To me it does. Maybe this is different in the anglophone world. But then again two thirds of American millenials don't know what Auschwitz is. Anyone who does should never compare it to current US border facilities. From listening to her it is clear that she doesn't know what she is talking about which is all the more reason not to use that term.

You're talking out your ass here friend. There are plenty of people in this very thread, with extensive educations in history, well acquainted with WW2, the Holocaust, and the history of "concentration camps" who have absolutely no problem with AOC's use of the term concentration camp. She used it correctly. All extermination camps in the Holocaust were concentration camps, not all concentration camps are extermination, or if you prefer, death camps.

By every single definition you can possibly provide, the ICE camps are concentration camps. The problem here people who don't, apparently, know what a concentration camp is. The Nazi death camps were the worst possible expression of that, but concentrations did not begin with Hitler, they did not end with Hitler, and feeling offended or insulted for using a term properly, is, frankly, odd.