US Military helicopter hits American Airlines jet near Washington National Airport

Sir Matt

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Sir Matt said:
https://www.arlnow.com/2025/01/29/breaking-aircraft-crash-reported-near-national-airport/

American Airlines flight from Wichita, Kansas hit a VIP transport helicopter over the Potomac River. It's the first fatal commercial crash in the US in 16 years.

There's a video of the collision:

https://bsky.app/profile/yasharali.bsky.social/post/3lgwh726zx22s

https://bsky.app/profile/samd.bsky.social/post/3lgwiifsix22k
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Horrible. Must be some of the most controlled airspace on earth too. American Airlines from Wichita is likely to be around a 50 seater?
 
How did that helicopter not see the passenger plane? Just flew straight at it.
 
Police have pulled multiple bodies from the Potomac of people apparently killed after a plane collided with a military helicopter, according to people familiar with the situation, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the incident.
Sen. Roger Marshall (R-Kansas) said on social media that “roughly 60 passengers” were on board the plane bound for D.C. from Wichita when the collision occurred.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2025/01/29/aircraft-crash-potomac/
 
In some ways its a miracle this doesn't happen more often near Reagan. If it wasn't for politicians and the convenience of getting there quick vs Dulles it would make zero sense for that airport to still exist given how surrounded it is by restricted airspace. That Potomac approach is awesome to watch but it's also bonkers from a security and safety aspect. Especially with the amount of helicopters and military aircraft operating nearby.
 
Abizzz said:
Horrible. Must be some of the most controlled airspace on earth too. American Airlines from Wichita is likely to be around a 50 seater?
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56-seater configuration according to what I read. Plus crew. The H-60 helicopter is reported to have had three people aboard.

ATC recordings make it clear that ATC was aware of their intersecting courses and that the helo was ordered to pass behind the aircraft.
 
G3079 said:
56-seater configuration according to what I read. Plus crew. The H-60 helicopter is reported to have had three people aboard.

ATC recordings make it clear that ATC was aware of their intersecting courses and that the helo was ordered to pass behind the aircraft.
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Add 4 crew members so 60 in all :( . And 3 in the helicopter.

Where did you hear atc recordings?

Edit: American Airlines now saying 60 passengers plus 4 crew.
 
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Abizzz said:
Add 4 crew members so 60 in all :( . And 3 in the Helicopter.

Where did you hear atc recordings?
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"PAT25 (callsign of the helicopter) do you have the CRJ in sight?"
followed by
"PAT25 pass behind the CRJ"

Answered by "PAT25 has the aircraft in sight, *something I can't make out* separation".

Redplane said:
In some ways its a miracle this doesn't happen more often near Reagan. If it wasn't for politicians and the convenience of getting there quick vs Dulles it would make zero sense for that airport to still exist given how surrounded it is by restricted airspace. That Potomac approach is awesome to watch but it's also bonkers from a security and safety aspect. Especially with the amount of helicopters and military aircraft operating nearby.
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The two small restricted areas to the north and the other small one to the south I'd not call a problem, but the huge amounts of helicopter and military traffic all around sure is. The fact that they haven't established fixed corridors and are relying on visual deconflicting is mindboggling, a miracle really that accidents aren't more frequent. Sacrificed safety on the altar of convenience.
 
G3079 said:

"PAT25 (callsign of the helicopter) do you have the CRJ in sight?"
followed by
"PAT25 pass behind the CRJ"

Answered by "PAT25 has the aircraft in sight, *something I can't make out* separation".


The two small restricted areas to the north and the other small one to the south I'd not call a problem, but the huge amounts of helicopter and military traffic all around sure is. The fact that they haven't established fixed corridors and are relying on visual deconflicting is mindboggling, a miracle really that accidents aren't more frequent. Sacrificed safety on the altar of convenience.
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Thanks. Not sure what to make of that to be honest. If they affirm seeing the CRJ it's unfathomable that they fly in it's way. Perhaps they saw something else they thought was the CRJ.
 
NBC reporting the helicopter was a training flight.
I get getting hours are important but in that corridor and outside of VFR? I guess let's see what more comes out before rushing to judgment though.

Sounds like divers spotted bodies inside plane segments but won't be able to retrieve until tomorrow. Terrible.
 
I live 20 minutes away from Reagan, awful news. Wonder what on earth happened in the air traffic control room.
 
Abizzz said:
Thanks. Not sure what to make of that to be honest. If they affirm seeing the CRJ it's unfathomable that they fly in it's way. Perhaps they saw something else they thought was the CRJ.
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That would be the most likely explanation, that they had mistaken another aircraft for the CRJ.

Redplane said:
NBC reporting the helicopter was a training flight.
I get getting hours are important but in that corridor and outside of VFR? I guess let's see what more comes out before rushing to judgment though.
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I mean, they have to practice night-flying in that area as well in order to be able to do it safely and reliably when they actually have to fly there. You can't just be practicing in perfect conditions and unproblematic locations. That this now actually led to the accident is a sad irony.

Liver_bird said:
I live 20 minutes away from Reagan, awful news. Wonder what on earth happened in the air traffic control room.
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Here's the radio chatter 15min before and after the event (civillian frequencies only). I don't have the military frequency recordings handy, but I'm sure you can find them.
As already posted above, the ATC warned the helo, and they confirmed the warning, so I don't think ATC is to blame here. The problems I see are more on the regulatory side such as lacking minimum horizontal separation for aircraft at the same altitude, visual deconfliction being used, no fixed helicopter corridors that keep them out of the final approach area. When runway 33 is in use like in this case, the entire area above the river and eastern shore north of it should be prohibited for other traffic imho:
EAq7nZS.jpeg
But I generally find a lot of the procedures around landing and taking off on US airports way too risky, cutting things too close for my liking regularly. But then again they did not have a large commercial aviation incident like this in a very long time, so what do I know?
 
@G3079 aye I understand the need to train in those conditions but with minimal spacing and every other challenge that area presents it seems like putting someone with a learner's permit on the Long Island Expressway during rush hour. Still though..nowhere near enough info to render judgment. We don't even know who was flying the plane. For all we know it was even the trainee.
 
Redplane said:
@G3079 aye I understand the need to train in those conditions but with minimal spacing and every other challenge that area presents it seems like putting someone with a learner's permit on the Long Island Expressway.
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A training flight does not have to mean that the guys flying were inexperienced newbies, they could have been very experienced pilots that just trained to maintain their capabilities. Flying is a perishable skill, after all.
And if the pilot was a newbie, I'd rather they'd learn to fly there with an experienced instructor by their side and able to take over rather than being tossed into the deep end by themselves at some point.

In both cases it still makes sense for them to conduct a training flight there.

Now if they were both inexperienced pilots, then I'd be fully with you.
 
G3079 said:
A training flight does not have to mean that the guys flying were inexperienced newbies, they could have been very experienced pilots that just trained to maintain their capabilities. Flying is a perishable skill, after all.
And if the pilot was a newbie, I'd rather they'd learn to fly there with an experienced instructor by their side and able to take over rather than being tossed into the deep end by themselves at some point.

In both cases it still makes sense for them to conduct a training flight there.

Now if they were both inexperienced pilots, then I'd be fully with you.
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You're right. I like to think that especially the military would know better than to put it in the hands of someone ill equipped for it.
 
Stolen from Reddit:

Rumor members of the US figure skating team may have been on board and then this comment copied verbatim figuring it may interest @G3079 in particular:

The most noticeable point of interest here is that the helicopter flew under 'Emission Control' and was only identifiable via MLAT (multilateration, which is path approximation by TDOA (time difference of arrival)). This is highly unusual for traffic outside of combat or certain mission needs. The helicopter also directly flew into the glide path of runway 33 0.5 miles from the approach end.
 
Redplane said:
Stolen from Reddit:

Rumor members of the US figure skating team may have been on board and then this comment copied verbatim figuring it may interest @G3079 in particular:

The most noticeable point of interest here is that the helicopter flew under 'Emission Control' and was only identifiable via MLAT (multilateration, which is path approximation by TDOA (time difference of arrival)). This is highly unusual for traffic outside of combat or certain mission needs. The helicopter also directly flew into the glide path of runway 33 0.5 miles from the approach end.
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Youth figureskating team members even, coming back from a tournament, is the rumour.
If the helicopter really was flying under emission control then that would explain why ATC never knew how close they actually were to the aircraft's path, and thus had no chance to warn them. The CRJ also couldn't have seen their transponder on their screens and thus would not know either.

I just watched the press conference, no information except the number of people in the two aircraft (sixty-seven), lots of "thoughts and prayers" and closure of the river and airport for the time being. They refused to confirm any survivors, which to me means almost certainly all being dead, and would not even confirm the ATC recordings.
The worst part was probably the citing of biblical scripture, and the Kansas senator going entirely off track talking about having lost sixty Kansas people today when everybody else went through great pains trying to still style the efforts as a rescue rather than a recovery operation. The looks that earned him from the others in the shot was quite something.
 
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G3079 said:
But I generally find a lot of the procedures around landing and taking off on US airports way too risky, cutting things too close for my liking regularly. But then again they did not have a large commercial aviation incident like this in a very long time, so what do I know?
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There's been a fair few close calls with very fine margins, hasn't it?
 
NotChatGPT said:
There's been a fair few close calls with very fine margins, hasn't it?
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Yes. I know a lot of pilots don't love flying under US ATC.

As with any accident Swiss cheese holes must line up. At that altitude traffic avoidance systems are reduced, visual identification is harder, and ATC are extremely busy.

You have to ask why ATC didn't intervene when they saw the two dots getting closer.
 
A different view of the collision. Flightpath of the helicoptor seems inexplicable.

 
I follow those ATC youtube channels and there's been a separation incident in the US every few months, for almost 2-3 years now. Many at SF and DC.
But unlike this one, none involved a helicopter, most involved an aircraft on the runway in conflict with one in the air or on a taxiway, in many, the ATC seemed to be at fault, and of course, for the ones in the air, TCAS got involved.
 
Jippy said:
A different view of the collision. Flightpath of the helicoptor seems inexplicable.

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I hesitate to say this, but from that angle it almost looks like a deliberate act - It looks like a crash at a T junction where someone just pulls out into oncoming traffic. How could the helicopter pilots be that unaware of a relatively slow jet on final approach?
 
buchansleftleg said:
I hesitate to say this, but from that angle it almost looks like a deliberate act - It looks like a crash at a T junction where someone just pulls out into oncoming traffic. How could the helicopter pilots be that unaware of a relatively slow jet on final approach?
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Because when Air Traffic Control asked if they had a visual on the plane they could have misidentified which one they were supposed to be looking for.

Not saying this is actually what happened, just a possibility.
 
You would strongly suspect the helicopter visually identified the wrong plane.

Seems like a recipe for disaster.
 
Far too many close calls in the US in the last couple of years. Seemingly due to both pilot and atc errors.
 
Maybe I’m underestimating the scale of their operations and differing risks in military flying but does it not feel like the American military are involved in a disproportionate amount of crashes outside of combat?
 
100 said:
Maybe I’m underestimating the scale of their operations and differing risks in military flying but does it not feel like the American military are involved in a disproportionate amount of crashes outside of combat?
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Especially the F35 recently. 1% of that fleet have crashed (total losses)
 
100 said:
Maybe I’m underestimating the scale of their operations and differing risks in military flying but does it not feel like the American military are involved in a disproportionate amount of crashes outside of combat?
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That's the nature of military flying. Civilian aviation prioritises safety above all else. Military flying requires regular training in dangerous circumstances, close formations, combat simulations, low level flying, carrier operations etc. etc.
 
The Firestarter said:
Especially the F35 recently. 1% of that fleet have crashed (total losses)
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Wrong.
F-35's safety record is impeccable.

F-16 has a 4.85% crash rate from total airframes.
F/A-18 has a 12.5% crash rate from total airframes.
F/A-18G/J has a 6.16% crash rate
F-15C/E has a 10.93% crash rate

F-35 currently stands at 1.08% crash rate.

100 said:
Maybe I’m underestimating the scale of their operations and differing risks in military flying but does it not feel like the American military are involved in a disproportionate amount of crashes outside of combat?
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It's improved exponentially over the past half century. As seen with the data above.

Also, it isn't that much different from Airliner crashes. US in 2007 was at a rate of 6.8 crashes per 100,000 flight hours. 2023 which was a record breaking year for safety in the US was at 1.8 per 100,000.

F-16 stands at 3.55 per 100k hours.
F-15 stands at 1.89 per 100k hours
F-35 stands at 2.22 per 100k hours.

Basically, you were more likely to be involved in an accident/crash in a US civilian plane in 2007 than you were in a military fighter jet. Now, in 2023 its the other way around but the difference is not gigantic.
 
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