You can get outperformed but win nevertheless in an individual game, yes. But not to the extent of finishing second.
In how many games we looked convincing and dominating if not from start to finish then most of the game?
Who knows maybe we'll lift our game and be 2nd again this season but be 15 points of the top. Maybe we'll be 3rd or 4th but is it worth it. To limber around top 4 but never be in touch with the 1st place..
Let me put it in another way. We looked far from convincing no matter we did actually get results. If not often we did get dominated by teams which we shouldnt get dominated by, especially given the team we had. Now it's even worse in that aspect, given the investment, as you yourself said.It's certainly not looking that way so far. The way we're playing right now, our across-the-board badness in every aspect of the game, that just can't continue. Particularly not with a squad like this (although it's looking more and more like the squad is part of the problem - though this time because of the investments made, not for the lack of them). Really, I'm not arguing none of this is OGS' fault and he needs more time. He's very close to running out of it.
But it's really not necessary to make the past something it isn't in order to make that point. A team that finishes second is not a team that often gets dominated by mediocre or weak opposition. We did better against those teams than Liverpool or Chelsea, even after Tuchel took over, did. You can't get away from that bottom line no matter how frustrating you found it to watch the games.
It's certainly not looking that way so far. The way we're playing right now, our across-the-board badness in every aspect of the game, that just can't continue. Particularly not with a squad like this (although it's looking more and more like the squad is part of the problem - though this time because of the investments made, not for the lack of them). Really, I'm not arguing none of this is OGS' fault and he needs more time. He's very close to running out of it.
But it's really not necessary to make the past something it isn't in order to make that point. A team that finishes second is not a team that often gets dominated by mediocre or weak opposition. We did better against those teams than Liverpool or Chelsea, even after Tuchel took over, did. You can't get away from that bottom line no matter how frustrating you found it to watch the games.
I doubt Ole had any power over the Ronaldo signing even if he did veto.
| Player | Span | Nation | Pos | Squad | 90s | Tkl | TklW | Def 3rd | Mid 3rd | Att 3rd | Tkl | Att | Tkl% | Past | Press | Succ | % | Def 3rd | Mid 3rd | Att 3rd | Blocks | Sh | ShSv | Pass | Int | Tkl+Int | Clr | Err |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Tackles | Vs Dribbles | Pressures | Blocks | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Erling Haaland | 2021-22 | no NOR | FW | Dortmund | 6.0 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 81 | 22 | 27.2 | 1 | 25 | 55 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 10 | 0 | |
| Romelu Lukaku | 2021-22 | be BEL | FW | Chelsea | 6.8 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 43 | 18 | 41.9 | 2 | 20 | 21 | 5 | 3 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 8 | 0 | |
| Robert Lewandowski | 2021-22 | pl POL | FW | Bayern Munich | 7.1 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0.0 | 2 | 59 | 21 | 35.6 | 1 | 21 | 37 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 5 | 2 | 0 |
| Harry Kane | 2021-22 | eng ENG | FW,MF | Tottenham | 6.2 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 0.0 | 3 | 78 | 21 | 26.9 | 1 | 28 | 49 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 9 | 0 |
| Karim Benzema | 2021-22 | fr FRA | FW | Real Madrid | 7.9 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 4 | 0.0 | 4 | 78 | 20 | 25.6 | 8 | 20 | 50 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 6 | 2 | 6 | 1 | 0 |
| Cristiano Ronaldo | 2021-22 | pt POR | FW | 2 squads | 4.7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0.0 | 1 | 17 | 3 | 17.6 | 2 | 9 | 6 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 0 |
It's obvious that Ole doesn't have any instructions for his forwards to track back which is why only Cavani bothers to do it when he's playing.Slower, weaker and more lazy than the old Ronaldo. We are basically 10 men in defence and aren't winning the ball in favourable positions as often as we should because of him, while our other offensive player must drop deeper in their pressing not to be caught on their heel. The whole team suffers with Ronaldo on the pitch. He is still a fox in the box, but we cannot afford luxury players on the pitch in the best league in the world. We desperately need to stop playing him for 90 minutes if he doesn't put in the defensive shift all modern #9s must put in.
Here is a comparison with other relevant #9s out there this season:
Player Span Nation Pos Squad 90s Tkl TklW Def 3rd Mid 3rd Att 3rd Tkl Att Tkl% Past Press Succ % Def 3rd Mid 3rd Att 3rd Blocks Sh ShSv Pass Int Tkl+Int Clr Err Tackles Vs Dribbles Pressures Blocks Erling Haaland 2021-22 no NOR FW Dortmund 6.0 2 2 0 2 0 0 0 0 81 22 27.2 1 25 55 3 1 0 2 2 4 10 0 Romelu Lukaku 2021-22 be BEL FW Chelsea 6.8 2 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 43 18 41.9 2 20 21 5 3 0 2 1 3 8 0 Robert Lewandowski 2021-22 pl POL FW Bayern Munich 7.1 3 3 0 1 2 0 2 0.0 2 59 21 35.6 1 21 37 2 0 0 2 2 5 2 0 Harry Kane 2021-22 eng ENG FW,MF Tottenham 6.2 3 2 0 2 1 0 3 0.0 3 78 21 26.9 1 28 49 3 2 0 1 0 3 9 0 Karim Benzema 2021-22 fr FRA FW Real Madrid 7.9 4 1 1 2 1 0 4 0.0 4 78 20 25.6 8 20 50 6 0 0 6 2 6 1 0 Cristiano Ronaldo 2021-22 pt POR FW 2 squads 4.7 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0.0 1 17 3 17.6 2 9 6 2 0 0 2 2 2 2 0
The numbers are shocking. We are basically 1 man less on the field without the ball, which of course also means we will have a longer way to the opposition goal when we win the ball more often. It's very simple really, either he improves his off the ball workrate drastically or he needs to be dropped.
You just need to look at how often we went behind to see that the second place finish flattered us slightly. It’s exciting conceding first and winning but it’s unsustainable. You can’t keep playing badly for large chunks of matches without that coming to bite you on the arse eventually.
You also can’t ignore the unusually poor season from the teams competing with us for second. Chelsea started so badly they sacked their manager. Spurs too. Arsenal probably should have sacked their manager. Liverpool miles below their usual standards under Klopp. It was a weird season. For all sorts of reasons. I don’t think we can read much into it and our struggles so far this season shouldn’t come as a total shock.
So you think Lewandowski, Haaland, Benzema etc. are Land Rovers compared to Ronaldo, the Ferrari? Look at the fecking numbers. He does nothing, absolutely nothing when we don't have the ball. We have to start every single attack from the back playing with a player like this and it is pretty obvious that our chancecreating will drop drastically from that. His defensive contribution is embarressing. He made 4 x more pressings per 90 in his first season for Juve, and has dropped his workrate steadily since. His numbers this season must be among the lowest pressing numbers in the history of football and the whole team suffers. Him and Ole playing him are the reasons we are in free fall right now.It's obvious that Ole doesn't have any instructions for his forwards to track back which is why only Cavani bothers to do it when he's playing.
Blaming Ronaldo is pointless, you're not going to buy a Ferrari and blame it for not performing like a Land Rover.
So you think Lewandowski, Haaland, Benzema etc. are Land Rovers compared to Ronaldo, the Ferrari? Look at the fecking numbers. He does nothing, absolutely nothing when we don't have the ball. We have to start every single attack from the back playing with a player like this and it is pretty obvious that our chancecreating will drop drastically from that. His defensive contribution is embarressing. He made 4 x more pressings per 90 in his first season for Juve, and has dropped his workrate steadily since. His numbers this season must be among the lowest pressing numbers in the history of football and the whole team suffers. Him and Ole playing him are the reasons we are in free fall right now.
https://theathletic.com/2895026/202...-tactical-problem/?source=user_shared_article
Worth a read. Sums up nicely the problem Ronaldo causes and for me illustrates perfectly why McFred is a necessity at this point in the absence of a DM.
Wow, thanks for this. Zero attempted tackles from Haaland. Glad we dodged a bullet and didn't block Martial's development by signing him.Slower, weaker and more lazy than the old Ronaldo. We are basically 10 men in defence and aren't winning the ball in favourable positions as often as we should because of him, while our other offensive player must drop deeper in their pressing not to be caught on their heel. The whole team suffers with Ronaldo on the pitch. He is still a fox in the box, but we cannot afford luxury players on the pitch in the best league in the world. We desperately need to stop playing him for 90 minutes if he doesn't put in the defensive shift all modern #9s must put in.
Here is a comparison with other relevant #9s out there this season:
�
Tackles Vs Dribbles Pressures Blocks Player Span Nation Pos Squad 90s Tkl TklW Def 3rd Mid 3rd Att 3rd Tkl Att Tkl% Past Press Succ % Def 3rd Mid 3rd Att 3rd Blocks Sh ShSv Pass Int Tkl+Int Clr Err Erling Haaland 2021-22 no NOR FW Dortmund 6.0 2 2 0 2 0 0 0 0 81 22 27.2 1 25 55 3 1 0 2 2 4 10 0 Romelu Lukaku 2021-22 be BEL FW Chelsea 6.8 2 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 43 18 41.9 2 20 21 5 3 0 2 1 3 8 0 Robert Lewandowski 2021-22 pl POL FW Bayern Munich 7.1 3 3 0 1 2 0 2 0.0 2 59 21 35.6 1 21 37 2 0 0 2 2 5 2 0 Harry Kane 2021-22 eng ENG FW,MF Tottenham 6.2 3 2 0 2 1 0 3 0.0 3 78 21 26.9 1 28 49 3 2 0 1 0 3 9 0 Karim Benzema 2021-22 fr FRA FW Real Madrid 7.9 4 1 1 2 1 0 4 0.0 4 78 20 25.6 8 20 50 6 0 0 6 2 6 1 0 Cristiano Ronaldo 2021-22 pt POR FW 2 squads 4.7 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0.0 1 17 3 17.6 2 9 6 2 0 0 2 2 2 2 0
The numbers are shocking. We are basically 1 man less on the field without the ball, which of course also means we will have a longer way to the opposition goal when we win the ball more often. It's very simple really, either he improves his off the ball workrate drastically or he needs to be dropped.
He wouldn't start a single match for Pep or Klopp with this workrate.
Does Ronaldo still fall into that category though? He did in the past, now he's just a poacher/finisher right? He barely scores like Greenwood does in regular basis.Ronaldo is a very Ole signing
A- He is a United legend and one of SAF's favourite sons just like Ole, Carricky, Fletchery and co
B- He fits both in the EPL proven and the safe big name signing. These two groups make 99% of Ole signing
C- Ole relies heavily on individual brilliance from his forwards. Ronaldo is, alongside Messi, the best on that regard
D- Ole loves a top quality finisher.(Haaland, Cavani). Ronaldo fits the bill
I am slightly annoyed about this notion that every player who might not fit United as we wanted is not Ole signing
Ronaldo could be posting Cavani pressing numbers per 90 and it would make zero meaningful difference in isolation. You've got complete tunnel vision on one negative metric.So you think Lewandowski, Haaland, Benzema etc. are Land Rovers compared to Ronaldo, the Ferrari? Look at the fecking numbers. He does nothing, absolutely nothing when we don't have the ball. We have to start every single attack from the back playing with a player like this and it is pretty obvious that our chancecreating will drop drastically from that. His defensive contribution is embarressing. He made 4 x more pressings per 90 in his first season for Juve, and has dropped his workrate steadily since. His numbers this season must be among the lowest pressing numbers in the history of football and the whole team suffers. Him and Ole playing him are the reasons we are in free fall right now.
Does Ronaldo still fall into that category though? He did in the past, now he's just a poacher/finisher right? He barely scores like Greenwood does in regular basis.
Ronaldo could be posting Cavani pressing numbers per 90 and it would make zero meaningful difference in isolation. You've got complete tunnel vision on one negative metric.
Let's see.So you think Lewandowski, Haaland, Benzema etc. are Land Rovers compared to Ronaldo, the Ferrari? Look at the fecking numbers. He does nothing, absolutely nothing when we don't have the ball. We have to start every single attack from the back playing with a player like this and it is pretty obvious that our chancecreating will drop drastically from that. His defensive contribution is embarressing. He made 4 x more pressings per 90 in his first season for Juve, and has dropped his workrate steadily since. His numbers this season must be among the lowest pressing numbers in the history of football and the whole team suffers. Him and Ole playing him are the reasons we are in free fall right now.
Hence their extended times on the benchNot in their latter years.
The key to their pressing is that it helps the team win the ball back as high up in the field as possible. As an example we have won the ball back within 5 seconds after Ronaldo has pressed 3 times this season. Haaland: 22 times, Lukaku: 18 times, Kane: 21 times, Lewandowski: 21 times, Benzema: 20 times.Wow, thanks for this. Zero attempted tackles from Haaland. Glad we dodged a bullet and didn't block Martial's development by signing him.
In all seriousness, the main thing I take away from this - aside from wondering why a lot of other centre forwards haven't been included here - is that the other guys are doing a lot of pressing for near negligible gains in actual ball-winning tackles and interceptions. People are barking up the wrong tree with this data. We've suddenly got collective panic over the number of pressures that our CF does. I'm presuming everyone would hate the thought of Messi and Mbappe playing for their teams too?
Pogue, it means nothing without having a framework for pressing. Bruno's currently a liability tearing off all the over pitch by himself when neither Ronaldo, the two wingers, or the double pivot meaningfully press with him Leicester was one example of this. Villarreal was a more painful example, where most of Villarreal's threat came in behind Greenwood through the midfield space that Bruno was vacating. Dalot was eviscerated.It would make a big difference. It’s not tunnel vision to focus on one of our players whose defensive effort is so off the charts poor we’ve basically got 10 men every time we loss possession. That’s a big deal.
Not to mention that when we see such appalling states for defensive workrate there’s a very good chance the ground he covers when we do have the ball leaves a lot to be desired.
Wow, thanks for this. Zero attempted tackles from Haaland. Glad we dodged a bullet and didn't block Martial's development by signing him.
In all seriousness, the main thing I take away from this - aside from wondering why a lot of other centre forwards haven't been included here - is that the other guys are doing a lot of pressing for near negligible gains in actual ball-winning tackles and interceptions. People are barking up the wrong tree with this data. We've suddenly got collective panic over the number of pressures that our CF does. I'm presuming everyone would hate the thought of Messi and Mbappe playing for their teams too?
Apologies answered before I saw yours. This basicallyThe key to their pressing is that it helps the team win the ball back as high up in the field as possible. As an example we have won the ball back within 5 seconds after Ronaldo has pressed 3 times this season. Haaland: 22 times, Lukaku: 18 times, Kane: 21 times, Lewandowski: 21 times, Benzema: 20 times.
This is where we create chances from winning the ball when the oppostion is out of balance and create the biggest chances. Creating unbalance is extremely important in football and it's scary to see the lack of understanding this in here.
Messi and Mbappe presses 4-5 x more often than Ronaldo.
Pogue, it means nothing without having a framework for pressing. Bruno's currently a liability tearing off all the over pitch by himself when neither Ronaldo, the two wingers, or the double pivot meaningfully press with him Leicester was one example of this. Villarreal was a more painful example, where most of Villarreal's threat came in behind Greenwood through the midfield space that Bruno was vacating. Dalot was eviscerated.
If we had a team built around a high workrate, pressing game, I would understand the angst. The alternatives at CF are Mason and Martial for the most part. Neither of them are big pressers either. Cavani, as we are finding out again, is not fit or able to play a substantial share of the centre forward role this season.
So you think us winning the ball back within 5 seconds after Cavani has pressed 3,86 times per 90 minutes versus 0,64 times per 90 minutes for Ronaldo is meaningless?Let's see.
Lewandowski - plays at Bayern under Nagelsmann, very progressive football, very attacking, dominates most games
Haaland - plays very progressive football and attacking under Rose
Benzema - a hardworking player (always has been) who plays under Ancelotti.
And then we have Ronaldo... under Ole... who plays whatever the heck football we're playing. Cavani is one of the hardest working forwards in modern years since I saw him at PSG and he looks just as clueless and headless as any player I have seen in our team. Yes, he runs a lot because that's how he was raised as a player, but it is most of the time completely meaningless and devoid of any coherent meaning. And that is certainly not down to Cavani because in a team with a very well implemented press system he'd be an absolute beast. But he is playing under the tutelage of Carrick and McKenna.
That's not just down to Ronaldo though. I've laboured this point on the forum elsewhere, but we essentially only have six players playing a meaningful role off the ball. That's the back four and the double pivot. Our two wide men, usually Greenwood and Sancho do nothing, Ronaldo does nothing and Bruno does not do anything particularly constructive, and in fact I'd argue his lone pressing is actually causing more harm than good in vacating midfield spaces. It is the immature side of Rooney all over again.The key to their pressing is that it helps the team win the ball back as high up in the field as possible. As an example we have won the ball back within 5 seconds after Ronaldo has pressed 3 times this season. Haaland: 22 times, Lukaku: 18 times, Kane: 21 times, Lewandowski: 21 times, Benzema: 20 times.
This is where we create chances from winning the ball when the oppostion is out of balance and create the biggest chances. Creating unbalance is extremely important in football and it's scary to see the lack of understanding this in here.
Messi and Mbappe presses 4-5 x more often than Ronaldo.
The point is that playing with a forward that doesn't run makes the team sit deeper, all the other players must cover more ground and we create fewer chances. Everyone gets tougher working conditions because of it.Get over yourselves with these pressing stats. Do the team press effectively even without Ronaldo on the pitch? No, so it's a ridiculous argument.
Seen a few comments saying he wouldn't be playing under Pep, what a stupid statement, for 1. Pep was ready to take him before he signed for us and for 2. he'd be banging in goals every week with their team.
There is absolutely no point blaming any player, not just Ronaldo, until we actually have tactics and a system in place.
It's very weird to see the 21-year-old and the 20-year-old get a free pass on their defensive workrate, even though we've seen our full backs get exposed repeatedly in different matches, yet it is the 36-year-old centre forward, with 812 career goals and 11 already this season, who is the primary target for criticism.Greenwood can’t play with Ronaldo, Ole needs to realise this soon or he’ll be gone. Greenwood’s lack of work ethic is a bit disappointing for a young player you’d expect to be full of energy, so if Ronaldo won’t do anything and has to start then Greenwood needs to give way to someone who will.
Creating fewer chances links to defending high up the pitch now does it? Nonsense.The point is that playing with a forward that doesn't run makes the team sit deeper, all the other players must cover more ground and we create fewer chances. Everyone gets tougher working conditions because of it.
The Athletic currently have a £9.99 offer for a year's access on Facebook. I just re-signed up as I wanted to read the current United stuff, so might be useful for others.https://theathletic.com/2895026/202...-tactical-problem/?source=user_shared_article
Worth a read. Sums up nicely the problem Ronaldo causes and for me illustrates perfectly why McFred is a necessity at this point in the absence of a DM.
Pogue, it means nothing without having a framework for pressing. Bruno's currently a liability tearing off all the over pitch by himself when neither Ronaldo, the two wingers, or the double pivot meaningfully press with him Leicester was one example of this. Villarreal was a more painful example, where most of Villarreal's threat came in behind Greenwood through the midfield space that Bruno was vacating. Dalot was eviscerated.
If we had a team built around a high workrate, pressing game, I would understand the angst. The alternatives at CF are Mason and Martial for the most part. Neither of them are big pressers either. Cavani, as we are finding out again, is not fit or able to play a substantial share of the centre forward role this season.
No one is criticizing him for what he has done in the past. He puts in the lowest workrate numbers recorded in football, that deserves all the criticizm it can get. If he just did average (4x what he is doing now) we wouldn't complain, but it is so obvious to see that the whole team suffers from this. Everyone else gets overloaded and we don't win the ball in good positions anymore.It's very weird to see the 21-year-old and the 20-year-old get a free pass on their defensive workrate, even though we've seen our full backs get exposed repeatedly in different matches, yet it is the 36-year-old centre forward, with 812 career goals and 11 already this season, who is the primary target for criticism.
It's very weird to see the 21-year-old and the 20-year-old get a free pass on their defensive workrate, even though we've seen our full backs get exposed repeatedly in different matches, yet it is the 36-year-old centre forward, with 812 career goals and 11 already this season, who is the primary target for criticism.
funny,That’s just whataboutism. This thread is about Ronaldo. His lack of effort will cause problems for any manager, using any system, with any line-up. And it’s only going to get worse from here. He’ll be fecking 37 years old before the end of this season.
The pressing stat is the biggest focus here. You could bring in the PSG player stats, I am not sure what they would be like, but PSG have been a massively under performing team since (name a date).Wow, thanks for this. Zero attempted tackles from Haaland. Glad we dodged a bullet and didn't block Martial's development by signing him.
In all seriousness, the main thing I take away from this - aside from wondering why a lot of other centre forwards haven't been included here - is that the other guys are doing a lot of pressing for near negligible gains in actual ball-winning tackles and interceptions. People are barking up the wrong tree with this data. We've suddenly got collective panic over the number of pressures that our CF does. I'm presuming everyone would hate the thought of Messi and Mbappe playing for their teams too?
No, my point is that we know what kind of player Ronaldo is when we bought him and expecting him to play different is just delusional especially when there's clearly no instructions from our coaching staff for our forwards to press and they're ok with it considering how little our forwards press. If they wanted a forward that presses, maybe they should have signed someone else. Whining about our current top scorer is ridiculous, when it's clearly the coaching staff that's fecking up and are clueless on how to make the best of what they have.So you think Lewandowski, Haaland, Benzema etc. are Land Rovers compared to Ronaldo, the Ferrari? Look at the fecking numbers. He does nothing, absolutely nothing when we don't have the ball. We have to start every single attack from the back playing with a player like this and it is pretty obvious that our chancecreating will drop drastically from that. His defensive contribution is embarressing. He made 4 x more pressings per 90 in his first season for Juve, and has dropped his workrate steadily since. His numbers this season must be among the lowest pressing numbers in the history of football and the whole team suffers. Him and Ole playing him are the reasons we are in free fall right now.
