Uno Draft: SF - willhse456 vs MJJ/syrian_scholes

[MJJ]

Rivelino certainly is, but I don't buy the work rate of Jairzinho. He often was the farthest player on the pitch in 70 WC and usually not the type of player to continuously chase players down or help the midfield.

In that tournament, the first televised to the World, he played six matches and scored seven goals. He is the only player to have scored in every match at a World Cup Final. He played across the front four but preferred the right wing. Rivelino, Pele, and Gerson all saw themselves as withdrawn attackers, so they can be seen all over the pitch, but Jairzinho stands out because of his willingness to continually move and make runs off Tostão to create space for other players. Whereas Pele dropped deep to draw defenders away from their line and Tostão acted as the focal point for passing moves, Jairzinho ran and ran and ran.

Jairzinho’s defining moment for the Seleção was his goal against Uruguay in the 1970 World Cup semifinal, and watching the replay, his role and nickname are evident. Heading into the match, many members of the Brazil squad were nervous, haunted still by the memory of the nation’s loss to Uruguay in 1950. In this game those sins were put to rest, and The Hurricane provided the absolution. The Furacão said it best himself – “when I took off with the ball it was hard to stop me.”



Brazil’s move itself only took eleven seconds and covered nearly the entire length of the pitch. It began with an errant Uruguayan pass to Jairzinho, near the edge of Brazil’s box. Eleven seconds and three passes later Jairzinho tucks the ball past Uruguay’s keeper. This goal typifies the greatness of the 1970 squad and illustrates the squad’s approach to total football – all eleven players were able to attack and defend simultaneously.

Unfortunately for Uruguay, the attack revolves around preternatural Seleção teamwork and the speed of Jairzinho. Each player knows precisely where his teammate is without taking an extra touch or needing a moment to look forward. Pele, without looking and a defender closing him down, flicks the ball to Tostão. All the while, Jairzinho jets down the field. The Uruguayan defender looks like he is running in mud as Jairzinho bears down on him. The move is finished off as the Hurricane touches the through ball from Tostão towards net, and then rolls the ball across the face of goal.

 

[harms]

Doesn't really have too much to do with the game, but was Edwards really an adequate passer in an all time sense?

From what I have sense, while he did have bursts forward, his passing was wayward. Probably would have developed as he grew older but I don't think he was an impressive passer in an all time sense.

As it always is with Edwards, we have to guess his real ability. Based on what I’ve seen and read, I’d imagine him being close to Keane in terms of his passing (level and style), probably a bit worse. Good enough to bring the ball forward, but definitely not a playmaker.

 

[MJJ]

@Enigma_87 you gonna vote?

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 you gonna vote?

Probably the toughest game to vote on. Really like both teams as I’ve said but would give you the smallest of edges due to Pele.

Still Navas compared to Banks is a huge let down which nearly offset the balance for me couple of times, but Pele with more suitable plan to the opposition nudged it for me.

 

[willhse456]

@MJJ do you have the games that Ronaldo played against Desailly, and were those all at centreback? Surely if it was his Milan days then he would have been playing in midfield?

 

[Gio]

I disagree about Chumpitaz, whilst he's not in the top bracket of defenders, he definitely holds his own in an all time draft.

Agree with this. From the footage I've seen he looks top class, a cut above most of the defenders of his era, and a guy who would seamlessly transition into the modern game. The aerial issue is a concern, but as you say well mitigated through strong flanks, as well as the height of Thuram offering some support.

Lots of strengthening going on, although disappointed to see Davids dropped - the central midfield looks a tad weaker as a result.

 

[Enigma_87]

Agree with this. From the footage I've seen he looks top class, a cut above most of the defenders of his era, and a guy who would seamlessly transition into the modern game. The aerial issue is a concern, but as you say well mitigated through strong flanks, as well as the height of Thuram offering some support.

Lots of strengthening going on, although disappointed to see Davids dropped - the central midfield looks a tad weaker as a result.

Yup. One of our earliest draft matches made me watch him more and look into him fair bit. One of the players that my opinion has evolved thanks to these draft games. Would probably always pick Ruggeri before him a while ago, not now though, brilliant defender.

 

[willhse456]

I'll keep an open mind to switch or call it a draw if there is a break down of Desailly vs Ronaldo's 7 games (I can't imagine all were at CB)

He wasn't. In these matches he's playing in midfield.



In the 98 World Cup final, Ronaldo had a convulsion before the game, and I would hope that wouldn't happen in our matchup, so I think it's unfair to judge him on that.

Not sure about the other games, I think a couple were in the Copa Itallia.

 

[MJJ]

@MJJ do you have the games that Ronaldo played against Desailly, and were those all at centreback? Surely if it was his Milan days then he would have been playing in midfield?

They faced each other three times for france, he played in defense all three times and four times in Italy. Out of those four, I think he played in defense in 2/3 matches.

 

[MJJ]

Agree with this. From the footage I've seen he looks top class, a cut above most of the defenders of his era, and a guy who would seamlessly transition into the modern game. The aerial issue is a concern, but as you say well mitigated through strong flanks, as well as the height of Thuram offering some support.

Lots of strengthening going on, although disappointed to see Davids dropped - the central midfield looks a tad weaker as a result.

How is thuram offering support when he is dealing with rivilino who will be crossing the ball in?

 

[MJJ]

Mind sharing the names of those options with us? There is a difference between being up against one striker with a rock like desailly for a partner who has stopped ronaldo before than with somebody like chumpitaz for whom you actively need to cover for. So are you suggesting that baresi will be breaking forward from the back with complete freedom?

@willhse456 still waiting for those options.

 

[willhse456]

@willhse456 still waiting for those options.

Desailly was playing in an incredibly strong AC Milan and French team, Ronaldo can take anyone on 1 on 1, he's probably the best ever for that. I don't know why you'd even let that be an option as that would be killing any chances of the game.

As we've mentioned so far, Chumpitaz is quick, rugged and intelligent, there is no real need for cover 24/7, he's not playing out of position and you're doing him a disservice here. However if Baresi was to go on one of his famous runs, he has ample cover from Edwards and Thuram. I doubt Robson would be comfortable dropping that deep to fill in a hole for example.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Went for MJJ in the end. Would have voted for wilsh if he had Davids though

 

[MJJ]

Desailly was playing in an incredibly strong AC Milan and French team, Ronaldo can take anyone on 1 on 1, he's probably the best ever for that. I don't know why you'd even let that be an option as that would be killing any chances of the game.

As we've mentioned so far, Chumpitaz is quick, rugged and intelligent, there is no real need for cover 24/7, he's not playing out of position and you're doing him a disservice here. However if Baresi was to go on one of his famous runs, he has ample cover from Edwards and Thuram. I doubt Robson would be comfortable dropping that deep to fill in a hole for example.

Lets play that out, if edwards drops deep you have no one on Pele. To make it worse, you have an older schuster and zidane in midfield trying to guard pele? Please, I would love for this to happen.

Secondly, if thuram comes inside you are basically leaving Rivelino free to swing a cross in.

So when Baresi goes on one of his famous runs, and judging by your posts he has the license to do so and loses the ball, you are fecked.

 

[willhse456]

Probably the toughest game to vote on. Really like both teams as I’ve said but would give you the smallest of edges due to Pele.

Still Navas compared to Banks is a huge let down which nearly offset the balance for me couple of times, but Pele with more suitable plan to the opposition nudged it for me.

I don't understand what you mean by a more suitable plan.

You mentioned yourself how deadly Ronaldo was in his all round game, drawing loads of defenders to him to cover his threat. Surely that leaves loads of space for my forwards to play to their full potential. I don't buy the zonal marking and think his midfield will be pulled around everywhere during the game.

 

[willhse456]

Lets play that out, if edwards drops deep you have no one on Pele. To make it worse, you have an older schuster and zidane in midfield trying to guard pele? Please, I would love for this to happen.

Secondly, if thuram comes inside you are basically leaving Rivelino free to swing a cross in.

So when Baresi goes on one of his famous runs, and judging by your posts he has the license to do so and loses the ball, you are fecked.

This is exactly the same situation with Scirea!! Having Cole, Desailly and Djalma up against Stoichkov, Ronaldo and Gullit on the counter is suicide, so I don't really know what you're trying to achieve with this statement...

 

[MJJ]

This is exactly the same situation with Scirea!! Having Cole, Desailly and Djalma up against Stoichkov, Ronaldo and Gullit on the counter is suicide, so I don't really know what you're trying to achieve with this statement...

That desailly is a better partner than chumpitaz with no clear weakness in his game which gives Scirea more freedom to play his natural game.

 

[Gio]

How is thuram offering support when he is dealing with rivilino who will be crossing the ball in?

Well who better than Thuram to prevent the wide delivery from arriving in the first place? And if it comes from the other side he’s perfect for covering in to bolster the aerial support. A Thuram/Gullit flank looks defensively impregnable to me.

 

[MJJ]

Well who better than Thuram to prevent the wide delivery from arriving in the first place? And if it comes from the other side he’s perfect for covering in to bolster the aerial support. A Thuram/Gullit flank looks defensively impregnable to me.

That implies that nobody has ever crossed with Thuram as a right back. Gullit is also doing double duty by working in midfield which will create overlaps on the wing.

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't understand what you mean by a more suitable plan.

You mentioned yourself how deadly Ronaldo was in his all round game, drawing loads of defenders to him to cover his threat. Surely that leaves loads of space for my forwards to play to their full potential. I don't buy the zonal marking and think his midfield will be pulled around everywhere during the game.

I don't buy Desailly doing a good job on Fenomeno on himself - far from it as I've already said. But then MJJ has Scirea to cover.. That means you need Zidane to step up, have a free role and be a nuisance for his defenders and DM. With him having defensive duties and also Schuster in DLP/DM position you ease him a bit as one of Robbo/Breitner can cover for him thus MJJ having spare man in defence centrally all the time.

The issue I have is that Gullit has to tuck in to help the midfield, whilst also stretch the attack and attack the box. Same with Zidane - he has to stick in and also be your advanced playmaker. Not that both can't do that but IMO takes away their presence in the attacking third and generally creates more roles for them in this particular game.

If you had Davids paired with Edwards I'd gone for you for the simple reason that Davids/Edwards vs Breitner/Robbo is a fair match that would battle out the middle of the pitch with probably 50-50 success. That would allow Gullit to concentrate more on the flank and attack the box, even help out Thuram, but keep him off the middle of the pitch.

Same with Zidane really. A base of Davids and Edwards doesn't need any more support, apart from him trying to get the ball back immediately or getting stuck in advanced position rather than tracking back.

An older Schuster creates an imbalance in the middle of the park to me(or if you add Zidane and Gullit you are losing bodies elsewhere). Schuster is great at distributing the ball from deep, so naturally I understand his inclusion, but when you have Nilton (a playmaking full back), Baresi - a libero and Chumpitaz who is also the ball playing type, you really don't need much playmaking support from deep rather than 2 all action midfielders who will protect the back four and cover ground.

 

[Theon]

Lets play that out, if edwards drops deep you have no one on Pele. To make it worse, you have an older schuster and zidane in midfield trying to guard pele? Please, I would love for this to happen.

Secondly, if thuram comes inside you are basically leaving Rivelino free to swing a cross in.

So when Baresi goes on one of his famous runs, and judging by your posts he has the license to do so and loses the ball, you are fecked.

These things are so hypothetical and reductive as to be pointless. Baresi was a highly intelligent footballer so I think he’s capable of judging the flow of the game and pushing 15 yards up the pitch when he feels it’s appropriate.

In your post above you’re assuming it’s not effective, so all those hypothetical things you’ve mentioned are only relevant on the basis of Baresi losing the ball or some sort of breakdown happening on his team - not sure why that’s the case. Why on earth should Zidane be worried about marking Pele when it’s his side who has possession? Makes no sense.

You should be worried about who is closing down Baresi and who is picking up the host of attacking options he has to pass to. Does Robson close him down? Then who who stopping the simple pass to Schuster, or the more dangerous pass to Zidane? Is Rivelino standing outside, completely oblivious to the defensive game, waiting to “swing a cross in” regardless of the fact his team doesn’t have possession? That means Thuram can push up slightly for an easy pass and leaves him free to support Ruud Gullit on a 2 vs 1 vs Cole (massive mismatch).

I’m not saying the above would happen, but the point is these silly hypothetical things you keep bringing up work both ways. And I think the above is much more likely to happen than the scenario you presented, in which somehow the team in possession of the ball is the one vulnerable to all your attackers.

 

[MJJ]

These things are so hypothetical and reductive as to be pointless. Baresi was a highly intelligent footballer so I think he’s capable of judging the flow of the game and pushing 15 yards up the pitch when he feels it’s appropriate.

In your post above you’re assuming it’s not effective, so all those hypothetical things you’ve mentioned are only relevant on the basis of Baresi losing the ball or some sort of breakdown happening on his team - not sure why that’s the case. Why on earth should Zidane be worried about marking Pele when it’s his side who has possession? Makes no sense.

You should be worried about 1. Who is closing down Baresi and who is picking up the host of attacking options he has to pass to. Does Robson close him down? Then who who stopping the simple pass to Schuster, or the more dangerous pass to Zidane? Is Rivelino standing outside, completely oblivious to the defensive game, waiting to “swing a cross in” regardless of the fact his team doesn’t have possession? That means Thuram can push up slightly for an easy pass and leaves him free to support Ruud Gullit on a 2 vs 1 vs Cole (massive mismatch).

I’m not saying the above would happen, but the point is these silly hypothetical things you keep bringing up work both ways. And I think the above is much more likely to happen than the scenario you presented, in which somehow the team in possession of the ball is the one vulnerable to all your attackers.

Not really, compare the hypothetical scenario that you have pointed out. Baresi pushes up and who marks him? Robson. On the other hand, its scirea pushes on and who marks him? Zidane? Do you see the difference?

As for why, if you have ever watched messi play and him being left in space to receive the ball you will know why you don't leave players of that ilk alone even when they don't have the ball.

 

[Physiocrat]

On the fence here. I think it will be a draw. If MJJ had Gullit instead of Jairzinho I would have gone for him. The latter really needs a more attacking full-back behind him and he wasn't that much of a crosser IIRC.

 

[MJJ]

On the fence here. I think it will be a draw. If MJJ had Gullit instead of Jairzinho I would have gone for him. The latter really needs a more attacking full-back behind him and he wasn't that much of a crosser IIRC.

If you vote for me, I promise to draft gullit next

 

[willhse456]

On the fence here. I think it will be a draw. If MJJ had Gullit instead of Jairzinho I would have gone for him. The latter really needs a more attacking full-back behind him and he wasn't that much of a crosser IIRC.

Fence sitting is never a good idea!

 

[willhse456]

On the fence here. I think it will be a draw. If MJJ had Gullit instead of Jairzinho I would have gone for him. The latter really needs a more attacking full-back behind him and he wasn't that much of a crosser IIRC.

Just think about how beautiful Ronaldo, Gullit and Zidane link up play would be, and preferably think within the next 3 minutes

 

[willhse456]

@Indnyc quick vote?

 

[Physiocrat]

Fence sitting is never a good idea!

I just wanted to register that I have been reading the discussion even if I didn't vote

 

[MJJ]

Just think about how beautiful Ronaldo, Gullit and Zidane link up play would be, and preferably think within the next 3 minutes

The best football side ever with batistuta instead of tostao

 

[willhse456]

I just wanted to register that I have been reading the discussion even if I didn't vote

Thats fair enough, I think it would be a very tight game too in reality.

 

[willhse456]

Sigh, losing by 0.5 of a vote is never fun, but it was a good game. Good luck for the final @MJJ

 

[MJJ]

Sigh, losing by 0.5 of a vote is never fun, but it was a good game. Good luck for the final @MJJ

Good game will, think the vote difference was never more than 1 which is fitting really.

 

[2mufc0]

Unlucky @willhse456 in such a tight game very small details decide it. For me it was your full backs, you have two fabulous wide men who like to cut in just thought it was not optimal, if you had full backs like Facchetti and Zanetti I would have voted for you.

Also agree with others that Davids should have played.

 

[Indnyc]

@Indnyc quick vote?

Sorry mate.. I couldn't decide It was too close to call for me

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Thanks for the Desailly/Ronaldo info @willhse456

Keeping the result aside, the midfield as I have said multiple times has been a personal favorite for me.

I wanted to create the below two 3 man midfields sometime in the future

1. Zidane-Young Schuster with a DM behind (Playing deeper Schuster is fine too but I like the combination with the younger one a lot better)

2. Charlton-Gullit with a DM behind

Both different flavors and styles but both great. Guess I have only one to play with now.

Of course, I was dissapointed with the reception Schuster got. I for one rate him a lot more than Davids in your setup/team.

Like @2mufc0 , I probably would have voted for you with different overlapping fullbacks as I mentioned yesterday.

I probably would have voted for you or called it a draw if Young Schuster had been played. Robson-Breitner is not good enough in my books to deal with the channels Zidane and an attacking Schuster are capable of opening.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Just a quick note on my voting reasons, I’ve been hectic busy lately.

Such a close game, I can remember pondering over it before I voted and couldn’t remember who I voted for when just coming back into the thread for the result, seeing it, I think I may have chose differently if I voted again.

Points I considered for and against or wish I’d had time to question were..

I get Navas is weaker in goals than banks, I don’t like how keepers never get questioned on their all time quality but on the other hand, with these types of drafts it’s harsh to decide a game based on a weak keeper knowing what was involved in choosing the players. It was still a let down to me seeing Navas there.

With the Brazilians upfront didn’t they have Tostao dropping deeper and both flanks pulling the defence for jarzhjno and Pelé to exploit? Batistuta wouldn’t do that would he?

I didn’t like the narrow forward line of will and a lot would depend on attacking fullbacks creating width. If Nilton got caught forward jarzhino would be up against just Chumpitaz?

I think Zidane or Gullit picking Ronaldo out would definitely happen at some point and he would decide the game.

Such a close game, like I said I could change my vote even just writing this out and then think the other way again.

Great teams both

 

[Synco]

These things are so hypothetical and reductive as to be pointless. Baresi was a highly intelligent footballer so I think he’s capable of judging the flow of the game and pushing 15 yards up the pitch when he feels it’s appropriate.

In your post above you’re assuming it’s not effective, so all those hypothetical things you’ve mentioned are only relevant on the basis of Baresi losing the ball or some sort of breakdown happening on his team - not sure why that’s the case. Why on earth should Zidane be worried about marking Pele when it’s his side who has possession? Makes no sense.

I had basically the same dispute about Beckenbauer pushing up in (I think) the last draft.