Universal Basic Income

Wibble said:
Since when was the only point of education getting a job?
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It’s not but I’ve never understood the clamour for more spending on education at the expense of any kind of future for children. What’s the point if we stop giving a shit once their education is over?
 
Why do we have to (and who does) stop.giving a shit once they leave school or Uni? Education should be lifelong.

And how is education spending at the expense of our kid's futures?
 
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In 2016 a total of 1.7bn in benefits was not paid to those entitled to it. Unpaid benefits is something which is overlooked quite a lot when it comes to these discussions.

Wouldn't that 1.7bn go a long way to help paying UBI?
 
Wibble said:
Why do we have to (and who does) stop.giving a shit once they leave school or Uni? Education should be lifelong.

And how is education spending at the expense of our kid's futures?
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The Government doesn’t seem to have a plan for it. Why increase spending on education when the spending pretty much stops when it ends and you can use it? What are people doing with all their degrees?
 
That sounds like Tory bullshit that only applies to not people like them. It confuses education with training amongst other things.

The righr wing parties want us to buy into downgrading education to mere job training for us while retaining education for the elite "people like us". You won't catch them at a technical college or complaining that a humanities degree is a waste of time.

And we enthusiastically play the game as they tell us to, just like we did with the Brexit vote.
 
Wibble said:
That sounds like Tory bullshit that only applies to not people like them. It confuses education with training amongst other things.

The righr wing parties want us to buy into downgrading education to mere job training for us while retaining education for the elite "people like us". You won't catch them at a technical college or complaining that a humanities degree is a waste of time.

And we enthusiastically play the game as they tell us to, just like we did with the Brexit vote.
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What a load of shite. I’d like to see the spending not stop when people become old enough to use it. As it stands we’ll just have the most educated people on the dole queue. It’s all well and good giving a shit about people until they’re 16 but what’s the point if we stop when they turn that age?
 
Free money. People become lazy. Spending will be on basic necessity only. Big companies cant sell stuff. Profit down tax down. Defisit. But the masses would already hooked on it pulling the plug would cause riots.

It probably works on low population high ethics country. But there is certainly a massive risk involved.
 
Sky1981 said:
Free money. People become lazy. Spending will be on basic necessity only. Big companies cant sell stuff. Profit down tax down. Defisit. But the masses would already hooked on it pulling the plug would cause riots.

It probably works on low population high ethics country. But there is certainly a massive risk involved.
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Indeed, if you take away the incentive to succeed, and by that contribute via tax, you'll get a society of underachieving slobs.
 
PedroMendez said:
how does the welfare system function in Norway in this regard? Are there any "push" factors, that force people to work?
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Sadly no, benefits will often pay as much as the lowest income jobs so people have little or no incentive to get off them.

The possibillity of unlimited free education counters it somewhat though, and our population is highly educated for the most part.

The benefits of our welfare system is that we have no poverty, and people have limitless possibillites. The backdraw is that our welfare system acts as a draw for low educated immigrants, since the state guarantee everyone a decent living in Norway. We have some shocking numbers when it comes to employment for Somali immigrants for example, shocking to the degree of 8\10 of the females claiming benefits.

It is not sustainable, and it is why I am so glad that the political spectrum in Norway has shifted towards the right, and it seems permanent.
 
I think it's a great idea and one that could transform the lives of many people for the better. No more 'benefit cheats' being spat on in the media, people will be able to work less if they want. I hope they do it.
 
Vidic_In_Moscow said:
I don't think it's physically possible for us to invent something more complicated and intelligent than the human brain.
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caid said:
You could definitely be right and there'll always be something missing with computer intelligence.
But i think more and more tasks will be handled by an ai.
Basic tasks like adding, subtracting and most calculations have been handled by computers for a long time.
Things like driving are going that direction with ai's in their test stage already performing better than humans.
They might never have the imagination or the drive to test and improve and perfect things as humans have.
But they dont need to to make a lot of people redundant.
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You'll be surprised at how advanced AI is at the moment. Its something we have to seriously start to think about and prefer for.

A lot of us are likely to witness a singularity in the next decade or so. After that? All cards are of the table, serious preparation needs to be done and this seems like an interesting and possibly viable solution.
 
SwansonsTache said:
Indeed, if you take away the incentive to succeed, and by that contribute via tax, you'll get a society of underachieving slobs.
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Fairly accurate summary of my thoughts on the matter - people are lazy, so freeing them to do what they love (as a few on the thread have mentioned) means freeing them to do nothing.
 
vi1lain said:
That’s a pretty ignorant view tbh.
Poverty rate is rapidly increasing in the UK and America, and third world countries aren’t only stuck in poverty.
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That said having spend a lot of time in 2nd and 3rd world economies people have to be careful about also appreciating just how much more support is available in the UK than in the vast majority of the world and whilst it's perfectly valid to point out where it could be better it shouldn't be at the expense of accepting it could a lot worse as well
 
The Hilton said:
Fairly accurate summary of my thoughts on the matter - people are lazy, so freeing them to do what they love (as a few on the thread have mentioned) means freeing them to do nothing.
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What's wrong with that? Why must life be about working hard?
 
balaks said:
What's wrong with that? Why must life be about working hard?
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In modern society people don't work in the salt mines.

Educate yourself, get a good job, earn money and contribute to society. It is simple really.

Rewarding underachievement will never be beneficial.
 
SwansonsTache said:
In modern society people don't work in the salt mines.

Educate yourself, get a good job, earn money and contribute to society. It is simple really.

Rewarding underachievement will never be benefitial.
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My overall aim in life is to stop working by becoming financially independent. I have zero interest in working the rest of my days if I can avoid it. I'd imagine most people would aspire to the same. That's not underachieving that's living your life the way you choose, if anything that's the biggest achievement anyone can have imo. If this frees people from having to work for the man and perhaps spend more time with friends and family then it's a very good thing.
 
balaks said:
My overall aim in life is to stop working by becoming financially independent. I have zero interest in working the rest of my days if I can avoid it. I'd imagine most people would aspire to the same. That's not underachieving that's living your life the way you choose, if anything that's the biggest achievement anyone can have imo. If this frees people from having to work for the man and perhaps spend more time with friends and family then it's a very good thing.
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Of course, I myself have taken considerable measures towards being independant at a relatively young age, like 40ish something.

I couldn't have done that without my education and career though. It is everyone's own choice if they want to prioritize other things than financial security and prospects, but don't expect the society to compensate and chip in for your own choices.

Everybody must eventually become a part of the rat race and the grind if they want to live with a certain standard and retire early.
 
SwansonsTache said:
Of course, I myself have taken considerable measures towards being independant at a relatively young age, like 40ish something.

I couldn't have done that without my education and career though. It is everyone's own choice if they want to prioritize other things than financial security and prospects, but don't expect the society to compensate and chip in for your own choices.

Everybody must eventually become a part of the rat race and the grind if they want to live to a certain standard and retire early.
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You are correct that everybody has a choice. What I disagree with is looking down our noses at those who choose not to 'achieve'. Not everyone wants to be part of society or work for the man.
 
balaks said:
You are correct that everybody has a choice. What I disagree with is looking down our noses at those who choose not to 'achieve'. Not everyone wants to be part of society or work for the man.
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Yea I'm with you on this. What about someone who wants to pursue something creative? Music, art and design. What about if you want to go on long walks in the wilderness? What about if you want to sit in a park with a bottle of liquor? What about if you want to spend all your time engaging with your children and family?

Who are we to tell these people what they can and can't do if there is a way that it can all be done without affecting our or anyone else's standard of living? Work to live? Live to work?

Maybe in the future it will just be live. With everyone pursuing the activities and work that they are passionate about instead of shoveling shit just because they have to.
 
SwansonsTache said:
Indeed, if you take away the incentive to succeed, and by that contribute via tax, you'll get a society of underachieving slobs.
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You don’t take away the incentive to achieve. It remains exactly the same. To become more wealthy.

The beauty of basic income is that people can do as much or as little as they want to earn a little more income, as and when they need it. As it stands there are incentives for people on welfare to avoid starting at the bottom of the career ladder because taking an entry level, poorly paid job won’t give much of a boost to their quality of life. Any financial gains from the new job are offset by losing their welfare payments.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You don’t take away the incentive to achieve. It remains exactly the same. To become more wealthy.

The beauty of basic income is that people can do as much or as little as they want to earn a little more income, as and when they need it. As it stands there are incentives for people on welfare to avoid starting at the bottom of the career ladder because taking an entry level, poorly paid job won’t give much of a boost to their quality of life. Any financial gains from the new job are offset by losing their welfare payments.
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Great point. It would free people.
 
It isn't free money. People using that line are probably idiots (probably).
 
SwansonsTache said:
Sadly no, benefits will often pay as much as the lowest income jobs so people have little or no incentive to get off them.

The possibillity of unlimited free education counters it somewhat though, and our population is highly educated for the most part.

The benefits of our welfare system is that we have no poverty, and people have limitless possibillites. The backdraw is that our welfare system acts as a draw for low educated immigrants, since the state guarantee everyone a decent living in Norway. We have some shocking numbers when it comes to employment for Somali immigrants for example, shocking to the degree of 8\10 of the females claiming benefits.

It is not sustainable, and it is why I am so glad that the political spectrum in Norway has shifted towards the right, and it seems permanent.
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thx
 
Javi said:
I take it the idea would be for them to receive enough money from UBI to pay it themselves.
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You are going to need at least £5k a year for a single person for rent in the UK, so what are the maths to cover rent and living expenses? JSA is £300 a month so you would need at least £8k a year, more likely £9k a year.
 
Vidic_In_Moscow said:
I don't think you can, you'd just have to test it and see the consequences, which begs the question - why should it even be tested? I'd be wary of anyone saying it's definitely a good or bad idea as of now, more so the former.
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Because we’re fast approaching a time where robotics and automation are going to wipe out vast numbers of jobs. That is basically unavoidable and so either we have some system in place to ensure people can continue to support themselves or else we’re in deep trouble. Unless we want to try having he existing welfare system trying to support many more people than it currently does, with all the requirements that people be looking for work that isn’t there.
 
SwansonsTache said:
In modern society people don't work in the salt mines.

Educate yourself, get a good job, earn money and contribute to society. It is simple really.

Rewarding underachievement will never be beneficial.
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The problem is there are many ways people can contribute to society and many of them do not earn people money
 
Wibble said:
It is neither free money nor an odd idea. It will also save a fortune in the currently convoluted and hugely administrative way we collect and distribute tax and social benefits. And we have to do something as in a generation's time anywhere near full employment will be impossible and social disintegration will occur unless we change well ahead of time.
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Wait, if you mean it as a replacement in totality to the welfare system, then umm sure I guess...
 
Cassidy said:
The problem is there are many ways people can contribute to society and many of them do not earn people money
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err live with the consequences then I guess!
If someone wants to play the flute by the side of street, entertain themselves via expressive dance and paint in a park - why is someone else picking up the tab?!
 
Member 5225 said:
err live with the consequences then I guess!
If someone wants to play the flute by the side of street, entertain themselves via expressive dance and paint in a park - why is someone else picking up the tab?!
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Picking up the tab?
 
Member 5225 said:
For their existence! People need food and shelter to survive, people work for said food and shelter - has been going on for centuries.
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Do you feel like you're picking up the tab now then?

Like you said tax/contributions to pay for infrastructure, services, welfare, charity has always been a thing. I'm ok with it, never thought of it as picking up someone else's tab.

Depends on how you perceive it...

Here's a question. If we were living in a time where the resources etc we were producing were being distributed efficiently to the extent where we were able to fund these things without changing anything wrt tax and contributions. Would those with the mindset of 'don't work to live = lazy and shouldn't be allowed' move from that position to something more like 'live and let live'?
 
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Member 5225 said:
err live with the consequences then I guess!
If someone wants to play the flute by the side of street, entertain themselves via expressive dance and paint in a park - why is someone else picking up the tab?!
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Today this person can get JSA and you would be picking up the tab.

Yes you pick an example of something that someone could do, that you find pointless, but there are many examples which would largely be beneficial to society.

Working and getting paid is done by necessity not because it benefits society, which prohibits quite a lot of things people could be organising themselves to do which could benefit society.

You could choose to go and work and earn more money so you can live a better lifestyle (and many people would)
You could choose to do nothing and live a basic lifestyle
You could choose to volunteer and help people who need help, care, etc
You could choose to organise social and political movements which may not get you paid.

Many things people can choose to do. In this world many cannot do them because of the necessity to work.

The idea that work as a necessity to live IMO needs to be something we can move away from in order to allow society to organise itself a lot better.
 
The welfare state is supposed to be a safety net for those unable to look after themselves. If people are angry when the benefits allowance is capped at £20k then I don’t see how a universal income could be funded so that it covers the needs of the people the welfare state is supposed to support.
 
afrocentricity said:
You'll be surprised at how advanced AI is at the moment. Its something we have to seriously start to think about and prefer for.

A lot of us are likely to witness a singularity in the next decade or so. After that? All cards are of the table, serious preparation needs to be done and this seems like an interesting and possibly viable solution.
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Chances of achieving a singularity within next decade are virtually 0.

General purpose AI is not on horizon, automation of a lof of professions (including highly skilled ones like doctors) is happening.
 
Revan said:
Chances of achieving a singularity within next decade are virtually 0.

General purpose AI is not on horizon, automation of a lof of professions (including highly skilled ones like doctors) is happening.
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Well who knows when it will be? I think it will be soon, next few decades.
 
Cassidy said:
Today this person can get JSA and you would be picking up the tab.

Yes you pick an example of something that someone could do, that you find pointless, but there are many examples which would largely be beneficial to society.

Working and getting paid is done by necessity not because it benefits society, which prohibits quite a lot of things people could be organising themselves to do which could benefit society.

You could choose to go and work and earn more money so you can live a better lifestyle (and many people would)
You could choose to do nothing and live a basic lifestyle
You could choose to volunteer and help people who need help, care, etc
You could choose to organise social and political movements which may not get you paid.

Many things people can choose to do. In this world many cannot do them because of the necessity to work.

The idea that work as a necessity to live IMO needs to be something we can move away from in order to allow society to organise itself a lot better.
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Thats all, folks!
 
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