Universal Basic Income

[Trequarista10]

Is there any research that looks at these 'patterns' or is it purely anecdotal from our own interpretation and political views?

I'm sure you can find some data if you're interested. Are you aware of any data that suggests there isnt a correlation? It's abundantly clear though. I've worked in civil service, finance, sales and now healthcare, and each was 80-90% aligned one way or the other. When in the civil service I went to a couple union meetings and everyone called everyone 'Comrade' ffs. In my current role, the recent local election results were cheered like a 90th minute winner in the CL final. When I worked in finance/sales, I got a constant stream of right wing rhetoric from my colleagues. You can also see the pattern, or "pattern", by the nature of MPs previous work experience. Labour MPs on the whole have different professional backgrounds to Tory MPs.

The more interesting question would to what extent people's political preference influences their profession, and how much their profession influences their political persuasion.

 

[Jericholyte2]

I always laugh when I hear the usual blowhards going on about ‘paying people to do nothing?!?!?’ or suggestions that ‘this will kill ambition as nobody will need to seek employment’.

Think of the hierarchy of needs; first we have food, water and basic needs of life, then secondly we have shelter and security.

Imagine the world where those first needs are met and you are free, not to NOT work, but to work on what you WANT to work on. Imagine how productive that society would be when people, ALL people, are in jobs they actively want to do!

 

[George Owen]

I always laugh when I hear the usual blowhards going on about ‘paying people to do nothing?!?!?’ or suggestions that ‘this will kill ambition as nobody will need to seek employment’.

Think of the hierarchy of needs; first we have food, water and basic needs of life, then secondly we have shelter and security.

Imagine the world where those first needs are met and you are free, not to NOT work, but to work on what you WANT to work on. Imagine how productive that society would be when people, ALL people, are in jobs they actively want to do!

And even if that dream job is just keeping your front garden and street clean, it would be a net positive for society like we have never seen before.

 

[F-Red]

I'm sure you can find some data if you're interested. Are you aware of any data that suggests there isnt a correlation? It's abundantly clear though.

No I'm not aware, which is why I asked the initial question around the term 'right wing jobs', assuming there's 'left wing jobs' by your same definition. That said, it's nothing more than anecdotes at this stage.

 

[Trequarista10]

No I'm not aware, which is why I asked the initial question around the term 'right wing jobs', assuming there's 'left wing jobs' by your same definition. That said, it's nothing more than anecdotes at this stage.

It's not just anecdotal, a quick Google search will show you some data. This isn't an academic debate I'm not going to provide citations.

 

[Red in STL]

Is there any research that looks at these 'patterns' or is it purely anecdotal from our own interpretation and political views?

My interpretation is that:

If working is required to feed your self/family and you rent your home then you're working class

If working is required to feed your self/family and you own or are buying your home you are middle class

If you work but don't actually need to then you're upper class

Bit of flexibility between the first 2

 

[4bars]

My interpretation is that:

If working is required to feed your self/family and you rent your home then you're working class

If working is required to feed your self/family and you own or are buying your home you are middle class

If you work but don't actually need to then you're upper class

Bit of flexibility between the first 2

I think upper class starts below not needing to work. what you describe on the 3rd, are the priviledge 1%

A person that is on his/her 20/30s, owns a house valued in 3-4 millions and is making 200k will need to work a couple of decades if they want to have a comfortable retirement and by no means I would qualify them middle class

 

[4bars]

an ex-girlfriend of mine went to ibiza with the girls once and she came back with a ubi.

Thats because brittish are an inferior race with white milk skin

 

[711]

Thats because brittish are an inferior race with white milk skin

Milk skin and spots if you please. We generally have fewer once we're over 40 though.

 

[Red in STL]

I think upper class starts below not needing to work. what you describe on the 3rd, are the priviledge 1%

A person that is on his/her 20/30s, owns a house valued in 3-4 millions and is making 200k will need to work a couple of decades if they want to have a comfortable retirement and by no means I would qualify them middle class

Someone in their 20-30's that owns a house valued at 3-4 million isn't working class

 

[4bars]

Someone in their 20-30's that owns a house valued at 3-4 million isn't working class

I 100% agree. I am saying that they are upper class, but they still need to keep working for a couple of decades at least

 

[4bars]

Milk skin and spots if you please. We generally have fewer once we're over 40 though.

Still, not cut for Ibiza during daylight, that is not why you go there to be honest

 

[711]

Still, not cut for Ibiza during daylight, that is not why you go there to be honest

No offence but you can keep Ibiza.

 

[4bars]

No offence but you can keep Ibiza.

Now that you feck it up, you keep it. Was beautiful

 

[rimaldo]

Now that you feck it up, you keep it. Was beautiful

when we first started going there it was all padron peppers and acorn-fed ham. we showed you the error of your ways and now it’s all fry-ups and carling. you’re welcome.

 

[4bars]

when we first started going there it was all padron peppers and acorn-fed ham. we showed you the error of your ways and now it’s all fry-ups and carling. you’re welcome.

And literal sucking cocks contests for free booze in clubs in magaluf (though thats mallorca)

You are right so unappreciative

 

[afrocentricity]

Coming back to this

if they want to continue this current economic model.

It's entirely possible that the current model could or should come to an end...

 

[AfonsoAlves]

My interpretation is that:

If working is required to feed your self/family and you rent your home then you're working class

If working is required to feed your self/family and you own or are buying your home you are middle class

If you work but don't actually need to then you're upper class

Bit of flexibility between the first 2

Depends where you are:

You could be on a 100k salary and not even come close to affording a place to buy in central London.

 

[Jericholyte2]

My interpretation is that:

If working is required to feed your self/family and you rent your home then you're working class

If working is required to feed your self/family and you own or are buying your home you are middle class

If you work but don't actually need to then you're upper class

Bit of flexibility between the first 2

I think the issue is that the working / middle classes have essentially collapsed into each other in recent years given wealth extraction.

The ‘classic’ middle-class home owner (would I qualify, we own our house with a household income of £80k) is now only a few months, or a few difficult issues away from destitution. For example we just had to get a new boiler, and thank feck we had the cover because paying for it wouldn’t have been an option.

I’d say there’s a strong argument to say that there is now only Working Class and Upper Class; those who rely on a monthly wage (or regular wage/income) to maintain their lifestyle, and those who don’t.

 

[Red in STL]

Depends where you are:

You could be on a 100k salary and not even come close to affording a place to buy in central London.

And you'd be working class in that scenario, in the North of England you'd be middle class in my book!

 

[Red in STL]

I 100% agree. I am saying that they are upper class, but they still need to keep working for a couple of decades at least

I wouldn't necessarily agree about the upper class, especially if it is an inherited house, in some areas those Georgian house's that are worth millions now were availabe 50 years ago for as little as 10-15K, plenty of middle class folks could afford those in the 70's

 

[AfonsoAlves]

And you'd be working class in that scenario, in the North of England you'd be middle class in my book!

yeah see the problem there is that tell anyone you're earning 100k+ as you're working class and they'd scoff in your face and rightfully so. It puts you in the what, top 1% of the country?

 

[4bars]

I wouldn't necessarily agree about the upper class, especially if it is an inherited house, in some areas those Georgian house's that are worth millions now were availabe 50 years ago for as little as 10-15K, plenty of middle class folks could afford those in the 70's

Obviously there are situations where it blurs as you mentioned before between working class and middle class. Is not black and white. In the example that you mentioned, might too. And is not only about the house, but your salary, savings etc... I think there are plenty of upper class that still need to work and I consider them upper class

I guess is a matter of perceptions? there are the official numbers that considers upper class the 20% , and then there is your perception and my perception. And it might change country to country

 

[Red in STL]

Obviously there are situations where it blurs as you mentioned before between working class and middle class. Is not black and white. In the example that you mentioned, might too. And is not only about the house, but your salary, savings etc... I think there are plenty of upper class that still need to work and I consider them upper class

I guess is a matter of perceptions? there are the official numbers that considers upper class the 20% , and then there is your perception and my perception. And it might change country to country

Nothing is ever black and white, except in the player forums, in there it's they are aboslute shite or the exact opposite

But I reckon as a general rule of thumb is probably as accurate as it'll ever be

I would add though, if you went to Eton you are almost always an upper class arsehole

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Nothing is ever black and white, except in the player forums, in there it's they are aboslute shite or the exact opposite

But I reckon as a general rule of thumb is probably as accurate as it'll ever be

I would add though, if you went to Eton you are almost always an upper class arsehole

My dad was a soldier, my mother was an immigrant from Eastern Europe.

Yet they saved every penny they could to send me to private school in the UK. Where does that fit in your system?

 

[4bars]

My dad was a soldier, my mother was an immigrant from Eastern Europe.

Yet they saved every penny they could to send me to private school in the UK. Why does that fit in your system?

You should ask your friend @Suedesi

 

[Red in STL]

My dad was a soldier, my mother was an immigrant from Eastern Europe.

Yet they saved every penny they could to send me to private school in the UK. Where does that fit in your system?

You went to Eton?

 

[AfonsoAlves]

You went to Eton?

No, but I went to a posh private school.

 

[Red in STL]

No, but I went to a posh private school.

In itself that doesn't mean anything, Eton is a different kettle of fish though

 

[VorZakone]

 

[VorZakone]

 

[afrocentricity]

But isn't the whole reason we are looking at UBI is because of the prospect of mass job loss? Fail to see how "some" people deciding not to work is a factor here...

 

[Krakenzero]

But isn't the whole reason we are looking at UBI is because of the prospect of mass job loss? Fail to see how "some" people deciding not to work is a factor here...

Same here. Wasn't that what was supposed to happen? A group of people working a little less and having a better quality of life (i.e. the increase in leisure) while causing less pressure to a saturated and unprofitable (for the worker) job market?

What would have been a "not dissapointing" result? People working more? Longer shifts? Cause that would have meant that UBI isn't a solution as it doesn't change the people's patterns of behaviour.

 

[711]

Didn't a lot of those that oppose UBI say people would just give up work? This trial seems to show that doesn't happen, or happen very marginally at any rate.

 

[afrocentricity]

Same here. Wasn't that what was supposed to happen? A group of people working a little less and having a better quality of life (i.e. the increase in leisure) while causing less pressure to a saturated and unprofitable (for the worker) job market?

What would have been a "not dissapointing" result? People working more? Longer shifts? Cause that would have meant that UBI isn't a solution as it doesn't change the people's patterns of behaviour.

Seems like "as per usual" people are going to read this how they want to. Like you I'd like to know what success looks like

 

[Cheimoon]

Seems like "as per usual" people are going to read this how they want to. Like you I'd like to know what success looks like

Mostly, from an economic standpoint, I would wonder (1) what's the actual change in productivity (given 4-day workweek studies are showing a rise in productivity that negates the loss in hours worked); and (2) what are the effects on health and quality of life (given that lower use of the health care system would lead to huge savings for society) ? I don't have to read the article now, but does it consider this things? Cause it's not so interesting if it only narrowly looks at hours worked and quality of employment (also because, ultimately, all/most jobs anyway need to be done).

 

[Cheimoon]

Mostly, from an economic standpoint, I would wonder (1) what's the actual change in productivity (given 4-day workweek studies are showing a rise in productivity that negates the loss in hours worked); and (2) what are the effects on health and quality of life (given that lower use of the health care system would lead to huge savings for society) ? I don't have to read the article now, but does it consider this things? Cause it's not so interesting if it only narrowly looks at hours worked and quality of employment (also because, ultimately, all/most jobs anyway need to be done).

Ah, no, they only looked at changes in income and participation in the labour market. So yeah, it's another piece in the puzzle, but not conclusive of anything in and of itself.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[George Owen]

Here's a step-by-step plan to transform the USA into a socialist society with Universal Basic Income (UBI):

*Phase 1: Preparation (Years 1-5)*

1. Build a coalition: Unite progressive organizations, labor unions, and community groups.
2. Raise awareness: Educate the public about socialism and UBI through media campaigns, town halls, and grassroots outreach.
3. Policy development: Draft comprehensive policies for UBI, healthcare, education, and economic reform.
4. Build alternative institutions: Establish cooperatives, community land trusts, and worker-owned businesses.

*Phase 2: Progressive Reforms (Years 5-10)*

1. Implement progressive taxation: Increase taxes on the wealthy and corporations.
2. Expand social programs: Enhance Medicare, Medicaid, and food assistance programs.
3. Increase minimum wage: Raise the federal minimum wage to a living wage.
4. Introduce UBI pilots: Launch small-scale UBI experiments in select cities or states.

*Phase 3: Economic Transformation (Years 10-15)*

1. Public banking: Establish a public banking system to finance social programs and infrastructure.
2. Worker ownership: Encourage worker-owned cooperatives and democratic workplaces.
3. Socialized healthcare: Implement a single-payer healthcare system.
4. Free education: Make public education free from pre-K to college.

*Phase 4: Universal Basic Income (Years 15-20)*

1. National UBI rollout: Implement UBI nationwide, starting with a modest amount ($1,000/month).
2. Funding: Finance UBI through a combination of progressive taxation, public banking, and redistribution of wealth.
3. Indexing: Adjust UBI for inflation and economic growth.
4. Phased increase: Gradually increase UBI to a living wage ($2,500/month).

*Phase 5: Consolidation and Expansion (Years 20-25)*

1. Solidify socialist institutions: Ensure the long-term viability of public banking, worker ownership, and socialized healthcare.
2. Expand UBI: Increase UBI to cover all citizens, including children and seniors.
3. International cooperation: Collaborate with other socialist countries to share knowledge and resources.
4. Continuous evaluation: Regularly assess and improve the socialist system and UBI.

Please note that this plan is a rough outline and may need to be adapted based on real-world challenges and opportunities. Additionally, the timeline may vary depending on factors like political will, social movements, and economic conditions.

Llama 3

 

[Red in STL]

Here's a step-by-step plan to transform the USA into a socialist society with Universal Basic Income (UBI):

*Phase 1: Preparation (Years 1-5)*

1. Build a coalition: Unite progressive organizations, labor unions, and community groups.
2. Raise awareness: Educate the public about socialism and UBI through media campaigns, town halls, and grassroots outreach.
3. Policy development: Draft comprehensive policies for UBI, healthcare, education, and economic reform.
4. Build alternative institutions: Establish cooperatives, community land trusts, and worker-owned businesses.

*Phase 2: Progressive Reforms (Years 5-10)*

1. Implement progressive taxation: Increase taxes on the wealthy and corporations.
2. Expand social programs: Enhance Medicare, Medicaid, and food assistance programs.
3. Increase minimum wage: Raise the federal minimum wage to a living wage.
4. Introduce UBI pilots: Launch small-scale UBI experiments in select cities or states.

*Phase 3: Economic Transformation (Years 10-15)*

1. Public banking: Establish a public banking system to finance social programs and infrastructure.
2. Worker ownership: Encourage worker-owned cooperatives and democratic workplaces.
3. Socialized healthcare: Implement a single-payer healthcare system.
4. Free education: Make public education free from pre-K to college.

*Phase 4: Universal Basic Income (Years 15-20)*

1. National UBI rollout: Implement UBI nationwide, starting with a modest amount ($1,000/month).
2. Funding: Finance UBI through a combination of progressive taxation, public banking, and redistribution of wealth.
3. Indexing: Adjust UBI for inflation and economic growth.
4. Phased increase: Gradually increase UBI to a living wage ($2,500/month).

*Phase 5: Consolidation and Expansion (Years 20-25)*

1. Solidify socialist institutions: Ensure the long-term viability of public banking, worker ownership, and socialized healthcare.
2. Expand UBI: Increase UBI to cover all citizens, including children and seniors.
3. International cooperation: Collaborate with other socialist countries to share knowledge and resources.
4. Continuous evaluation: Regularly assess and improve the socialist system and UBI.

Please note that this plan is a rough outline and may need to be adapted based on real-world challenges and opportunities. Additionally, the timeline may vary depending on factors like political will, social movements, and economic conditions.

Llama 3

Can I have some of what you're smoking?

This is the USA you're talking about, where Bernie Sanders, a centrist-lefty by European standards is regarded as a Communist