United's 'Open Heart Surgery' under Ten Hag

SomeRandomPerson

Full Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2014
Messages
327
Just struck me that United have had a massive clear out and reshuffle of the squad under Ten Hag.

Over the past two years (and change), we have signed 14 players - Eriksen, Malacia, Martinez, Casemiro, Antony, Mount, Onana, Hojlund, Bayindir, Zirkzee, Yoro, Mazraoui, De Ligt, and Ugarte (not confirmed yet?).

Add to that those promoted from within - Garnacho, Mainoo, Amad, and hopefully one of Collyer/Amass.

Meanwhile, we have let 24 players go from Ole's last season - Matic, Pogba, Mata, Lingard (wasn't really ever a part of the squad under Ole but did play quite a bit under Van Gaal/Mourinho), Cavani (wasn't really part of the team in the final season but big player in Ole's second season), Pereira (was already on loan by Ole's third season?), Ronaldo, Tuanzebe (not really played much under Ole, perpetual injuries), Jones (may have literally never played under Ole?), De Gea, Elanga, Telles, Fred, Henderson (looked to have established himself in the team by the end of Ole's second season, seemed to have a complete falling out in the third season), Bailly, Varane, Martial, Van De Beek, Kambwala, Greenwood, Wan Bissaka, Hannibal, Pellistri, and Mctominay.

Add to this potential departures of Lindelof and Sancho. Plus, maybe even Eriksen (who we only signed under Ten Hag), which could potentially takes the outgoings to 27.

By my count, that leaves only 6 players from the Ole/Rangnick season who are still in the squad - Rashford, Maguire, Shaw, Dalot, Bruno, and Lindelof (who may yet leave). I guess Garnacho also technically made his debut under Rangnick but still.

Interesting that Ten Hag said over the summer that Rangnick was completely right about the squad needing 'open heart surgery'. 24 (potentially 27) departures, 14 new signings (with Eriksen probably leaving, and the club probably open to selling at least Casemiro and Antony, and the unfortunate Malacia injury situation) and 3 promotions from the academy. Obviously, still questions to be answered about some of the fees we have paid and received for these players, and the squad still needs work in terms of a proven goalscorer and a fit left back but the change is still astronomical. If that doesn't qualify as open heart surgery, I don't know what will.
 
It’s been a good period in terms of fixing many of the issues in the squad. It’s not perfect by any stretch and as you say, some of the fees paid have been questionable.

I hope the new lads joining have the right personality and attitude which is an area we have often overlooked since Fergie - too many players coming for the money and not the football.

Still more work to be done and upgrades to be made, but it looks like we have a football department with a vision outside of selling merchandise now.

It remains to be seen if EtH can get the best out of them. I guess we’ll know over the coming months if he can make them gel.
 
It might not be quite as big a reshuffle as you think. In his first three seasons, Arteta signed 24 players on permanent deals, Guardiola signed 23, and Klopp 20.

A key difference is that those managers signed players who just didn't work out at all and were able to replace them straight away with someone else.

This is something we've been pretty poor at and/or hesitant to do. Berrada's two-year rule should help with this. You could also argue that squad bloat and high earners have really hampered us in the past, and that's something we've set about fixing this summer.

I remember Ole saying that a United manager basically gets 3 main signings a summer. Looking at our rivals who've risen, that was never really going to work out. Fortunately we've moved away from that.
 
SomeRandomPerson said:
Just struck me that United have had a massive clear out and reshuffle of the squad under Ten Hag.

Over the past two years (and change), we have signed 14 players - Eriksen, Malacia, Martinez, Casemiro, Antony, Mount, Onana, Hojlund, Bayindir, Zirkzee, Yoro, Mazraoui, De Ligt, and Ugarte (not confirmed yet?).

Add to that those promoted from within - Garnacho, Mainoo, Amad, and hopefully one of Collyer/Amass.

Meanwhile, we have let 24 players go from Ole's last season - Matic, Pogba, Mata, Lingard (wasn't really ever a part of the squad under Ole but did play quite a bit under Van Gaal/Mourinho), Cavani (wasn't really part of the team in the final season but big player in Ole's second season), Pereira (was already on loan by Ole's third season?), Ronaldo, Tuanzebe (not really played much under Ole, perpetual injuries), Jones (may have literally never played under Ole?), De Gea, Elanga, Telles, Fred, Henderson (looked to have established himself in the team by the end of Ole's second season, seemed to have a complete falling out in the third season), Bailly, Varane, Martial, Van De Beek, Kambwala, Greenwood, Wan Bissaka, Hannibal, Pellistri, and Mctominay.

Add to this potential departures of Lindelof and Sancho. Plus, maybe even Eriksen (who we only signed under Ten Hag), which could potentially takes the outgoings to 27.

By my count, that leaves only 6 players from the Ole/Rangnick season who are still in the squad - Rashford, Maguire, Shaw, Dalot, Bruno, and Lindelof (who may yet leave). I guess Garnacho also technically made his debut under Rangnick but still.

Interesting that Ten Hag said over the summer that Rangnick was completely right about the squad needing 'open heart surgery'. 24 (potentially 27) departures, 14 new signings (with Eriksen probably leaving, and the club probably open to selling at least Casemiro and Antony, and the unfortunate Malacia injury situation) and 3 promotions from the academy. Obviously, still questions to be answered about some of the fees we have paid and received for these players, and the squad still needs work in terms of a proven goalscorer and a fit left back but the change is still astronomical. If that doesn't qualify as open heart surgery, I don't know what will.
Click to expand...
Definitely qualifies as open heart surgery in my books,

I'm still not convinced by some of the new signings or the way they are being used by ETH.
 
The important thing is how many of the new additions are genuinely high quality players and successful signings.

I can think of only Martinez among the transfers. Onana and Hojlund have to prove themselves whereas Casemiro, Malacia, Mount, Eriksen and Antony either haven’t worked out yet or need to be replaced. With the new boys, we have to wait and see - Hoepfully it’s they turn the tide. With the amount we’ve spent under ETH, if by later on in the season, we don’t have at least 4 or 5 of his additions firing then that’s a big problem.
 
It’s amazing what can happen in a short space of time when you have football people making football decisions.
 
Butty19 said:
It’s amazing what can happen in a short space of time when you have football people making football decisions.
Click to expand...
The "football people" are blindly backing a manager who was responsible for our worst ever PL and CL campaign. They are feeding his ego by going after every Dutch player or backroom staff they can get hold of.

Save the arrogance for when there is some actual tangible progress.
 
I would say there can be no more excuses for Ten Hag, but of course there will be plenty of excuses.
 
I was always under the impression that Rangnick's comments weren't just about the playing staff, but the entire club from top to bottom, including the ownership and upper management.
 
Samid said:
The "football people" are blindly backing a manager who was responsible for our worst ever PL and CL campaign. They are feeding his ego by going after every Dutch player or backroom staff they can get hold of.

Save the arrogance for when there is some actual tangible progress.
Click to expand...
Are you this miserable in real life? For the task at hand (or at least the topic of discussion on this thread) they've done exactly what is asked for them.

There is clearly a lot of forward planning in the squad building process through signing young (sub 25) and even younger still (highly rated academy players) While also putting conditions in sold players that guarantees us to benefit from any future success of theirs. The balance of the squad is also much much better and will be primed to work with any manager, meaning it won't be a reset if we get a new manager.



On a separate note, qe get you don't like the manager and that's fine, but the decision to keep was clearly a tentative one due to a dearth of genuine alternatives. By being backed you mean he's been given a competent squad, which he clearly didn't have last year. If he fails this year, so be it but I'd rather support my teams success rather than hope we lose so I can rant on an Internet forum about your hatred for a manager.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
The important thing is how many of the new additions are genuinely high quality players and successful signings.

I can think of only Martinez among the transfers. Onana and Hojlund have to prove themselves whereas Casemiro, Malacia, Mount, Eriksen and Antony either haven’t worked out yet or need to be replaced. With the new boys, we have to wait and see - Hoepfully it’s they turn the tide. With the amount we’ve spent under ETH, if by later on in the season, we don’t have at least 4 or 5 of his additions firing then that’s a big problem.
Click to expand...

So Onana and Hojlund have to prove themselves after their first season but Mount in his first season who was hampered by injuries needs replacing.

Interesting
 
Igor Drefljak said:
So Onana and Hojlund have to prove themselves after their first season but Mount in his first season who was hampered by injuries needs replacing.

Interesting
Click to expand...
Mount is just someone who has worked out yet due to injuries. He deserved this season to prove himself. The point is that barely any signing can be said to be a very good one (yet) and that’s the important thing rather than mere turnover.
 
Nas-JR said:
Are you this miserable in real life? For the task at hand (or at least the topic of discussion on this thread) they've done exactly what is asked for them.

There is clearly a lot of forward planning in the squad building process through signing young (sub 25) and even younger still (highly rated academy players) While also putting conditions in sold players that guarantees us to benefit from any future success of theirs. The balance of the squad is also much much better and will be primed to work with any manager, meaning it won't be a reset if we get a new manager.



On a separate note, qe get you don't like the manager and that's fine, but the decision to keep was clearly a tentative one due to a dearth of genuine alternatives. By being backed you mean he's been given a competent squad, which he clearly didn't have last year. If he fails this year, so be it but I'd rather support my teams success rather than hope we lose so I can rant on an Internet forum about your hatred for a manager.
Click to expand...
Where has anyone done this? Stop drawing nonsensical strawmen.
 
Samid said:
The "football people" are blindly backing a manager who was responsible for our worst ever PL and CL campaign. They are feeding his ego by going after every Dutch player or backroom staff they can get hold of.

Save the arrogance for when there is some actual tangible progress.
Click to expand...
I think that is because TH has a lot of power with his veto, which was agreed under Murtough. The next manager will be in name only, with him being more a head coach and the Ashworth/Wilcox deciding players and identity
 
Just need to get rid of the manager and find someone competent for a top club, and then replace half the garbage Ten Hag bought
 
Anybody has similar statistics for previous managers? I feel we went through big overhauls during LVG and Mourinho eras too. But maybe I am wrong.
 
Crazy that we've spent £600m on that list of players and we still barely look like a top 4 squad to me.
 
If we keep playing slow pace football and struggle to score goal, the open heart surgery can only start after we get the right manager in.
 
I get the negativity and frustration, but there is still hope that, with the right additions made, we will improve. Of course, it all needs time to settle in and fit together (time we admittedly don't have).

Pep was laughed at in here, as were Arteta and Klopp, but all managed to do well after they got backed by the right football people.

We weren't lazy this summer and did some good business, in my opinion, but of course, there is not much room for error, especially for TH...
 
with McTominay imminent move to Napoli, it will be 22 players that left since EtH took over in summer of 2022 ( I am not including youth players that left who never featured in the 1st team like Zidane or Kovar, Alvaro and so on), there is a chance Lindelof & Sancho leave as well, making it 24 players, this is a significant shift in playing squad under EtH, and the 15 players he signed form the core of his main squad of 25, with Dalot, Shaw, Maguire, Heaton, Bruno, Amad and Rashford being the players he inherited, and Garnacho & Mainoo being the players he promoted to the main squad.

Not an immediate open-heart surgery per se, but it is a major rebuild, and we can expect more of him especially with this brilliant summer of signing 5 good players with average age of 23, this is a solid squad that EtH has now and he has to perform far better than last season.
 
I didn't expect the turn over to be so rapid but the new executive engaged a new gear this summer to pile up on what has been done since EtH is here.

Next year it's possible Maguire leaves and Casemiro + Eriksen (which were recent stop gaps signings) are not here or in the exit corridor. Shaw status might be up in the air as well.

We'll see how the new signings perform but we're very close to having completed a new core team that could service us for the next 5 years (regardless of manager), and it seems that even with the duds it should be more solid than the one that was inherited and partly built 6-7 years ago.
 
Rangnick wanted to do it over 3 windows and it took us 5 to do it and we haven’t finished yet.

Also, as someone else pointed out, it’s not just the change but the willingness to admit when those changes aren’t working and change again. City bought Bravo and kicked him out, Arsenal changed from Ramsdale to Raya, push Ben White to the right for Saliba, relegated Jesus to a rotation option. We (the fanbase, mostly) are still in a mindset of you have one shot for incoming and if it’s not working you are out. I don’t know much about Fergie’s year on year player turnover during his first 6 years at the club but I’m willing to bet that he changed loads before getting it right.

Regardless of the head coach in charge, we should be more ruthless and proactive with our squad turnover. Playing for United first team should be an utterly cutthroat competition, no more vibes, no more ‘pashun’, no more homegrown sentiments. You have a bit of leeway if you are young, but if you aren’t producing, make way for the next guy.
 
However, have our starting XI really improved after the open heart surgery?

Rashford - surely the 2021 version is better than the 2024 version of him
Ronaldo - Hojlund is more all arounded than 20-21 Ronaldo but scored less goals, so hard to judge- we see potential
Sancho/Greenwood - whether Amad/Garnacho are better remains to be seen - we see potential
Pogba - Mainoo is more consistent than Pogba (especially in his late years) so yes
Bruno - surely the 2021 version is better than the 2024 version of him
McTom/Fred - we replaced them with Casemiro who needs to be replaced, so hard to judge again. Probably Ugarte is an upgrade
Shaw - still Shaw, who is injured and presumably has declined due to age
Maguire - yes I would say Martinez is an upgrade on him
Varane - De Ligt/Yoro are younger but I wouldn't say they are really better than an (injury free) Varane, who is a world class player
awb - yes, Dalot is better than awb

De Gea - Onana is more all rounded but was more error prone last season, so hard to judge again

I would say we have only upgraded on 3 positions (4 if we count Ugarte in ) and 3 positions we see the same player who have declined.

So the answer is - not so much unless we see Hojlund and garnacho/amad grow into great players and Rashford/Shaw are replaced.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Rangnick wanted to do it over 3 windows and it took us 5 to do it and we haven’t finished yet.

Also, as someone else pointed out, it’s not just the change but the willingness to admit when those changes aren’t working and change again. City bought Bravo and kicked him out, Arsenal changed from Ramsdale to Raya, push Ben White to the right for Saliba, relegated Jesus to a rotation option. We (the fanbase, mostly) are still in a mindset of you have one shot for incoming and if it’s not working you are out. I don’t know much about Fergie’s year on year player turnover during his first 6 years at the club but I’m willing to bet that he changed loads before getting it right.

Regardless of the head coach in charge, we should be more ruthless and proactive with our squad turnover. Playing for United first team should be an utterly cutthroat competition, no more vibes, no more ‘pashun’, no more homegrown sentiments. You have a bit of leeway if you are young, but if you aren’t producing, make way for the next guy.
Click to expand...
You're never going to get that amongst the fanbase because people develop personal favourites and become sentimental. But that doesn't really matter, at worst all it does is create tiring circular arguments on a message board.

As long as Ineos and their new team are intolerant of failure and willing to quickly replace underperformers, regardless of what fans want, then we'll be alright in the long run
 
CG1010 said:
Anybody has similar statistics for previous managers? I feel we went through big overhauls during LVG and Mourinho eras too. But maybe I am wrong.
Click to expand...

Just looking into this and -

LVG (2 seasons) -

Departures (20) - Welbeck, Kagawa, Buttner, Zaha, Bebe, Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Macheda, Fletcher, Anderson, Giggs (technically, he just retired at the end of the Moyes season, but still is a change year-on-year), Di Maria, Chicharito, Evans, Van Persie, Nani, Rafael, Lindegaard, and Cleverley.

Arrivals (12) - Shaw, Herrera, Rojo, Blind, Di Maria, Depay, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin, Darmian, Martial, Valdes, and Romero.

Promoted (2?) - Lingard, and Rashford. Could also add Cameron Borthwick-Jackson, Timothy Fosu-Mensah, James Wilson, Guillermo Varela, Joe Riley, Paddy Mcnair, Tyler Blackett and a whole host of young players who Van Gaal gave debuts but they mostly only played due to injuries while Rashford and Lingard became certified first team players.

Jose Mourinho (3 seasons) -

Departures (12) - Schneiderlin, Depay, Mcnair, Blackett, Schweinsteiger, Valdes, Mkhitaryan, Januzaj, Rooney, Ibrahimmovic (we just extended his contract to help him recover from his injury and then he left after for the MLS so not sure if we want to count him), Blind, Carrick (retired to take a coaching role).

Arrivals (10) - Bailly, Mkhitaryan, Ibrahimovic, Pogba, Lindelof, Matic, Lukaku, Sanchez, Fred, Dalot, Grant.

Promoted (1) - Mctominay (not sure if I am missing someone?).

Ole Gunnar Solskjaer (3 seasons) -

Departures (12) - Fellaini (happened during his stint as interim manager), Lukaku, Smalling, Darmian, Young, Valencia, Wilson, Herrera, Fosu-Mensah, Rojo, Angel Gomes, and Sanchez.

Arrivals (13) - James, Wan Bissaka, Maguire, Bruno, Van De Beek, Amad, Pellistri, Telles, Cavani, Sancho, Varane, Ronaldo, and Heaton.

Promoted (2) - Greenwood, and Henderson (not sure about counting him but he became first choice in the league by the end of Ole's second season).

Not sure if I'm missing someone and I've not included any of the loan deals so no Falcao under Van Gaal, no Ighalo under Ole and no Weghorst under Ten Hag (christ we've spent the last decade getting shite strikers on loan).

So, I guess you're right about a big overhaul under Van Gaal where we basically got rid of Fergie's entire title winning side. 20 departures over 2 summers is insane. His tenure also stresses the point @izak and @amolbhatia50k are making about the importance of getting the incomings right because his signings (other than Romero, Shaw, Herrera, Martial and maybe Blind. And even then Shaw, and even Herrera, barely played under him) are diabolical.

I'd say change under Mourinho and Ole are in fact not that dramatic. Also shows that the difference is mainly in departures because all managers seem to get on average roughly 4-5 signings per window. Similarly, 12 players leaving over 3 seasons (again average 4 players out per year) just seems like the normal turnover of any squad
 
SomeRandomPerson said:
Just looking into this and -

LVG (2 seasons) -

Departures (20) - Welbeck, Kagawa, Buttner, Zaha, Bebe, Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Macheda, Fletcher, Anderson, Giggs (technically, he just retired at the end of the Moyes season, but still is a change year-on-year), Di Maria, Chicharito, Evans, Van Persie, Nani, Rafael, Lindegaard, and Cleverley.

Arrivals (12) - Shaw, Herrera, Rojo, Blind, Di Maria, Depay, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin, Darmian, Martial, Valdes, and Romero.

Promoted (2?) - Lingard, and Rashford. Could also add Cameron Borthwick-Jackson, Timothy Fosu-Mensah, James Wilson, Guillermo Varela, Joe Riley, Paddy Mcnair, Tyler Blackett and a whole host of young players who Van Gaal gave debuts but they mostly only played due to injuries while Rashford and Lingard became certified first team players.

Jose Mourinho (3 seasons) -

Departures (12) - Schneiderlin, Depay, Mcnair, Blackett, Schweinsteiger, Valdes, Mkhitaryan, Januzaj, Rooney, Ibrahimmovic (we just extended his contract to help him recover from his injury and then he left after for the MLS so not sure if we want to count him), Blind, Carrick (retired to take a coaching role).

Arrivals (10) - Bailly, Mkhitaryan, Ibrahimovic, Pogba, Lindelof, Matic, Lukaku, Sanchez, Fred, Dalot, Grant.

Promoted (1) - Mctominay (not sure if I am missing someone?).

Ole Gunnar Solskjaer (3 seasons) -

Departures (12) - Fellaini (happened during his stint as interim manager), Lukaku, Smalling, Darmian, Young, Valencia, Wilson, Herrera, Fosu-Mensah, Rojo, Angel Gomes, and Sanchez.

Arrivals (13) - James, Wan Bissaka, Maguire, Bruno, Van De Beek, Amad, Pellistri, Telles, Cavani, Sancho, Varane, Ronaldo, and Heaton.

Promoted (2) - Greenwood, and Henderson (not sure about counting him but he became first choice in the league by the end of Ole's second season).

Not sure if I'm missing someone and I've not included any of the loan deals so no Falcao under Van Gaal, no Ighalo under Ole and no Weghorst under Ten Hag (christ we've spent the last decade getting shite strikers on loan).

So, I guess you're right about a big overhaul under Van Gaal where we basically got rid of Fergie's entire title winning side. 20 departures over 2 summers is insane. His tenure also stresses the point @izak and @amolbhatia50k are making about the importance of getting the incomings right because his signings (other than Romero, Shaw, Herrera, Martial and maybe Blind. And even then Shaw, and even Herrera, barely played under him) are diabolical.

I'd say change under Mourinho and Ole are in fact not that dramatic. Also shows that the difference is mainly in departures because all managers seem to get on average roughly 4-5 signings per window. Similarly, 12 players leaving over 3 seasons (again average 4 players out per year) just seems like the normal turnover of any squad
Click to expand...

Thanks some random person!

LVG fecked us up much more than most people realised. Many of the people he chose to sell could have been great when Mourinho came. And he got lots of turds in return.
 
I'm probably in the minority but I don't think LvG was wrong to sell a lot of those players, it's just the replacements he brought in were mostly bad. Sir Alex was performing miracles with getting a title winning team out of some of those players that were either coming towards the end of their career or just not very good, and you only have to see how their careers turned out to know that quite a few of them weren't really elite level (also Vidic and Evra agreed to leave halfway through the Moyes season IIRC)
 
Clear outs happen with every new manager. This time though, it's more about INEOS fixing things and building for the future then just the current manager. It just so happens Ten Hag is the one at the helm right now.
 
Thinking Ten Hag is the surgeon is funny. He's a tool that'll be upgraded once the patient has a functional ticker.
 
hobbers said:
Even after a massive clear out I still count 10 players who are either known deadwood or very likely to go next summer for other reasons. 6 of whom signed by ETH.

Next summer:

Lindelof - will leave on a free
Evans - will retire
Maguire - not good enough, likely to be sold
Malacia - wont return to a good enough level after injury
Shaw - as above
Mount - as above
Casemiro - last year of contract, likely sold
Eriksen - will leave on a free
Rashford - not good enough, could be sold
Antony - not good enough, likely to be loaned
Click to expand...

Relax, we are 2 games into the season. Maguire, Shaw, Mount, Case, Rashford and Antony could all come good. We need a squad for a long season
 
Lots of change. Shame the surgeon should have lost his medical licence by now
 
Licha-Vidic said:
Click to expand...

This is incredible.

So many keep pointing at us not making enough in sales, but the truth is there is no market for our fringe players on insane wages. Under the INEOS regime we can keep wages at a reasonable level and if the players don't work we can shift them easier. Finally a bit of sensible business.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.