Verdict so far is that there has been a slight almost unnoticeable improvement if at all.
United under LvG: verdict so far!
- Thread starter LawCharltonBest
- Start date
- Status
The more pertinent question is who has Van Gaal coaxed a genuine improvement from?
You may be content that not many have regressed from the nadir of the Moyes era, but no one has really considerably upped their game either.
The wider issue for me is team cohesion. First we were told it'd take three months for the players to understand the philosophy, a period of time that clearly had to be revised, because Van Gaal said just before the Swansea game that the players were all finally on board. Well, to be honest, looking at yesterday, I don't think they are, and I still don't understand what the fecking philosophy stands for. Poorer squads with less lauded managers are playing with a level of cohesion and understanding that we could only dream of.
It's not even about the results. The football is woeful. Can you list the games this season when United have come off the field having played exhilarating football?
@Sultan is right, Van Gaal is over complicating things.
Calling for his sack now is a bit pointless, but it's got to the stage where I'm really not sure I trust him with the future of the club.
We're all spoiled compared to other clubs but I think there might be a few dark years ahead.
We're all spoiled compared to other clubs but I think there might be a few dark years ahead.
Young, Valencia, Fellaini off the top of my head.
In my opinion, those players come under the category of having previously been insipid and now they're performing to a creditable standard.
Van Gaal hasn't really had the desired impact on the 'stars' in our squad, a number of whom have stood still at best.
Who are these 'stars'?
Starting McNair at fullback again was an incredibly stupid thing to do after the Burnley game. I said to my brother before the game "he'll have to take him off at half time"...I'm sick to death of saying something like this and knowing I'll be right. It's hardly the sign of a good manager is it?
I wasn't happy with Fellaini playing either because I thought anything good we did would be negated by our need to play Fellaini tactics by standing him at the far post and hoofing crap crosses to him, which, as soon as we got control of the game, is EXACTLY what we did, which then basically cost us the game.
Also your argument is thin because take Fellaini out of the equation and the team actually played quite well yesterday. If say Mata was on the pitch instead of him, we'd have probably won comfortably and put in our best performance in months, in fact it could even have been our first ever none shite performance under Van Gaal...but no, must play different when Fellaini on pitch. Must aim all balls too high at Fellaini.
Januzaj, Fletcher, Rooney, Rafael, Evans, Van Persie, Di Maria, Mata....
Also most of the problem players under Moyes were turfed out along with Moyes or shortly afterwards, which is probably a significant factor in why they haven't continued to play poorly for Manchester United this season.
Plus, if your argument is the players aren't playing as badly, yet our performances and results have not improved at all ( I think the performances have become a lot worse, personally), who does that leave you to look at in terms of why this might be the case?
I wouldn't say Valencia's been any better, and Van Gaal has used Fellaini to turn us into a much worse team than when he isn't in it.
Take it you've forgotten the numerous goals he cost us last season? Moyes would put him at RB when chasing a game and he would promptly cost us a goal. He's been very solid this season considering he's basically had to cover the right flank all on his own.
Flair players with the ability to make watching United a joyful experience.
Rooney was having a bloody good season up until the point the midfield experiment started. He had a few reasonable games deeper, but his performances have tailed off really badly. Saw a stat yesterday - disregarding his penalty against Preston, he registered his first shot on target since December yesterday. We're nearly in fecking March! We have no goalscoring threat up front, something exacerbated by Van Gaal taking our most potent player and sticking him in the centre of the park.
Van Persie needs no discussion. His commitment and performances dipped under Moyes, but he was still scoring at roughly the same rate as his first season. I read yesterday that he now has three in his last 11. Nowhere near good enough for a striker who's not adding anything in general play.
The stats suggest that Mata is less productive this season than last. His performance levels are much the same - he leaves you feeling he's a tidy player, but not someone who's going to impact the result. Looks a million miles from the player at Chelsea when he played in the number 10 role, a position he's never given at United. Apparently, it's more favourable to play Fellaini in that sort of area of the pitch.
Januzaj was a rare bright spot last season. Has been deployed in some very odd positions by Van Gaal.
Di Maria's been a massive disappointment. Van Gaal says he doesn't know his best position, which is a tad irritating, because you'd think that'd be worked out before a £60m outlay. I'll inevitably be told he needs time to settle. Just like Costa and Sanchez... A long way off the player that dazzled last season.
If you then factor in Van Gaal's handling of flair players like Rafael and Hererra, preferring functional players instead, and it's not looking great in terms of trying to promote a nice brand of football.
Who do you think he's coaxed a considerable improvement from? The general consensus seems to be Young, Valencia and Fellaini. I personally disagree with Valencia, who is serving up the same stuff he has been for a long while now. Either way, if that's the sum total of his improvement work, it's nowhere near good enough.
A big flop, with many wrong transfers.
I mean Moyes was bad, but literally every singlle game this season it's looked like the players are charging around trying to win in SPITE of their managers tactics or team selections. Every single game.
I can barely think of a game this season where I haven't ended it being annoyed or wishing I hadn't bothered watching it. That didn't happen last season. The only thread of defence has been this "we're in the top four" argument. Which will disappear very shortly indeed. Every other blind argument for why Van Gaal isn't an idiot has slowly faded out due to his ability to prove it wrong again and again over a period of time.
"oooh the injuries"
"we're improving with every game, anyone who isn't blind can see this"
"he needs time to impose his philosophy"
"we play better football than under Moyes"
All things that never were credible arguments even before people gradually stopped making them because they realised it was making them sound silly.
I can barely think of a game this season where I haven't ended it being annoyed or wishing I hadn't bothered watching it. That didn't happen last season. The only thread of defence has been this "we're in the top four" argument. Which will disappear very shortly indeed. Every other blind argument for why Van Gaal isn't an idiot has slowly faded out due to his ability to prove it wrong again and again over a period of time.
"oooh the injuries"
"we're improving with every game, anyone who isn't blind can see this"
"he needs time to impose his philosophy"
"we play better football than under Moyes"
All things that never were credible arguments even before people gradually stopped making them because they realised it was making them sound silly.
I wouldn't say he's been great. He's cost us goals this season and solid is a very blinkered assessment. Even giving you the benefit of the doubt. That's two fringe players, weighed against the long list above who've either played worse or not been used correctly.
Because that's what I want from a manager who comes in and spends £150m and is hailed as a genius. I don't care about the terrible football, lack of any improvement in results, or cowardly Fellaini tactics that have turned us into a joke. The important thing is that Ashley Young and Antonio Valencia are playing slightly better
...even though one of them has barely played, and the other plays ahead of someone who's better than him in the position he's being used in.
This.
It's tumescent crap week after week.
United's style of play has three characteristic phases:
1) Keep the ball and circulate it in non-threatening areas at a really, really, really, really, really slow tempo.
2) Someone, under no pressure whatsoever, inexplicably drops a bollock and lets the opposing team have a free go at our goal.
3) Jonny Evans turns around and lambasts De Gea.
It's going to be an interesting summer, because we won't be getting in the top four, at which point I don't think Van Gaal deserves to keep his job.
It took a whole 4 minutes for us to pass the opposition through on goal yesterday. An improvement on the 1 minute against Cambridge but worse than the 9 minutes it took against the mighty Preston North End.
Thing is I thought we could have played well yesterday. I was actually enjoying the game, until, bizarrely, the point at which we seemed to take control of it. At that point we just started aiming long, rubbish crosses at Fellaini, and it became obvious we weren't going to win no matter how much of the ball we had. That doesn't come down to the players. It comes down to having a stupid manager who insists on ineffective tactics over trusting his players to be better than the other team.
I mean what was the point in letting Van Gaal spend any money at all if the only consistent tactic he has is to make every player's abilities except Fellaini's irrelevant?
No-one seems to be taking much notice, and maybe the comparison is flawed in all sorts of ways, but is anyone else not worried that LvG is currently 4 points worse off than Moyes was after playing the same or equivalent teams?
Granted it's a totally different league this year, and the points total needed to finish top four might be lower, but . . . six of our last 12 games are against City (H), Arsenal (H), Liverpool (A), Chelsea (A), Tottenham (H) and Everton (A).
In the equivalent games last season, we picked up 3 points from them. There's also a potentially tricky away trip to Newcastle.
Now, I think where LvG has been demonstrably better than Moyes is getting results against the stronger teams in the league (while Moyes was better at beating the lesser teams, especially away from home). Draw at Spurs, win at Arsenal, win at home to Liverpool, draw at home to Chelsea, win at home to Everton. All good. So I think we'll do better than getting 3 paltry points from them this time around.
But we won't go into any of those games as strong favourites, and could conceivably drop quite a few points. It would only take one of our rivals stringing 3 or four wins together in that period - which is not an unrealistic prospect at all - and all of a sudden we're adrift.
This is the first time i've started to consider a non-top four finish as a genuine possibility, and if we continue to pick up less points per equivalent game than we were under Moyes, we could actually drop like a stone over the next couple of months. And going by the comparison, no-one can say it hadn't been telegraphed.
TL;DR version:
Granted it's a totally different league this year, and the points total needed to finish top four might be lower, but . . . six of our last 12 games are against City (H), Arsenal (H), Liverpool (A), Chelsea (A), Tottenham (H) and Everton (A).
In the equivalent games last season, we picked up 3 points from them. There's also a potentially tricky away trip to Newcastle.
Now, I think where LvG has been demonstrably better than Moyes is getting results against the stronger teams in the league (while Moyes was better at beating the lesser teams, especially away from home). Draw at Spurs, win at Arsenal, win at home to Liverpool, draw at home to Chelsea, win at home to Everton. All good. So I think we'll do better than getting 3 paltry points from them this time around.
But we won't go into any of those games as strong favourites, and could conceivably drop quite a few points. It would only take one of our rivals stringing 3 or four wins together in that period - which is not an unrealistic prospect at all - and all of a sudden we're adrift.
This is the first time i've started to consider a non-top four finish as a genuine possibility, and if we continue to pick up less points per equivalent game than we were under Moyes, we could actually drop like a stone over the next couple of months. And going by the comparison, no-one can say it hadn't been telegraphed.
TL;DR version:
Firstly it was injuries, and LvG was not held resposible for those. Then it was players are shite so can not adapt to the philosophy, yet they are still and its March in 10 days time. Another excuse was to sacrifice the attack for the sake of defence, yet both attackers and defenders struggle badly. I do not believe in the philosophy anymore, so if LvG is given another blank cheque come summer, the expectation should be winning the league straight away. No more time for philosophy...
The blank cheque is fine as long as he buys players to make us play better, if he buys ones to fit into this awful football system then god help us.
Well, then it is up to Woody to decide. The Glazers are no Arab sheikhs, and they do expect some return on their investment. Personally, I do not think LvG will see out his contract with us. I'd be more than happy to be proved wrong as LvG builds another winning machine...
There's no way I want Van Gaal meddling with the squad some more....and I really don't get what people have been watching to think "yeah, there's no worries about top four"
I've said it before but our performance level suggests around 7th again. The only reason that's not where we already are is because of a few utter fluke results and other teams taking ages to get themselves going.
I've said it before but our performance level suggests around 7th again. The only reason that's not where we already are is because of a few utter fluke results and other teams taking ages to get themselves going.
I want LVG to stay, but it's becoming increasingly harder to shake the feeling that whilst I believe he is a top manager, he just doesn't have the right style for Manchester United and its going to take an awful long time for him to shape the entire club from the ground up in his own image. When I look at the likes of Koeman and Pochitteno in their first season at their respective clubs who, player for player, are nowhere near our level of quality playing better football than us I just get the feeling that maybe LVG's brand of football isn't suited for the incredibly high tempo that the PL is played at.
It's obvious our current group of players struggle with keeping the ball well whilst trying to penetrate and its glaringly obvious that they shit their keks when pressed so I don't see how anything apart from a complete overhaul will sort this out. We need to build a team from CB out who are comfortable with the ball at all times and I don't know if the club will have the patience for that or not.
It's obvious our current group of players struggle with keeping the ball well whilst trying to penetrate and its glaringly obvious that they shit their keks when pressed so I don't see how anything apart from a complete overhaul will sort this out. We need to build a team from CB out who are comfortable with the ball at all times and I don't know if the club will have the patience for that or not.
I don't want to sound ageist at all here. I believe older people can offer just as much as younger people in roles like this one, and exhibit A of that is Fergie, who retired at 70+ while still at the top of the tree.
But by the time LvG has shaped the club from the ground up in his own image, he'll be getting towards retirement age himself, and someone else will have to come in and start over again anyway.
Yeah, good point that mate. Begs the question as to whether its worth letting him do it or just tightening the purse strings and letting him make do with what he has until another manager comes up.
He just took a hammering off Jason Burt on the Sunday supplement about an hour ago, squad underperformed massively, getting to February and still not knowing his best team, or formation, seeing Di Maria regress, does short and sharp press conferences etc.
His main point also was about LvG bowing to public opinion - his main points been Falcao getting a run of games, dropping the back 5, Herrera playing again, and Rooney going back up front, all on the back of strong public opinion, I thought the same when he suddenly dropped the back 5, having just said the back 4 makes his bum squeak.
One guy said he only believe's in him still because of his track record, not because of what he is doing, or how the team are playing, about sums it up for me.
His main point also was about LvG bowing to public opinion - his main points been Falcao getting a run of games, dropping the back 5, Herrera playing again, and Rooney going back up front, all on the back of strong public opinion, I thought the same when he suddenly dropped the back 5, having just said the back 4 makes his bum squeak.
One guy said he only believe's in him still because of his track record, not because of what he is doing, or how the team are playing, about sums it up for me.
Horrible to watch.
I'm struggling to see where it is all leading.
I'm struggling to see where it is all leading.
I disagree on Van Gaal bowing to public opinion
the thing is he has experimented far too much with everything - the public lately have been asking for Herrera in midfield, Rooney up top - think these decision just fit in with his pattern of changing tactics every few games
he's tried things like Di Maria up front, Rooney in midfield, persisted with Falcao/RVP, not given Herrera enough starts, Rafael can't get near the squad at the minute, Mata has been in and out, Fellaini as a striker/in a diamond......
it seems to me he picks a team/tactic - gives it a few games, doesn't work, changes it
the constant chopping and changing hasn't helped players become comfortable - his so called fecking philosophy - how complex is it - we have CL winners here, PL winners, experienced players and only on Friday did he say the players now understand the philosophy which inevitably preceeds a defeat
had he kept it simple from the start and played in an attacking style with two deep midfielders to protect our shit CBs and some width and pace to stretch teams we'd be up City's ass right now in terms of points and we would have played a lot better into the bargain
So my point was I was not and stand by that.
So then I was in the minority, now perhaps the majority is joining my opinion. Either way I form my own opinion and try to make correct assessments and not follow the herd. You seem to just say everyone is fickle and care not for an individual perception regardless of it's own merits.
So true, everything thing in this post.
We'll see what happens now that our somewhat flattering position in the table isn't there to hide behind the acutely terrible performances.
The results/performances from teams around us are interesting. Spurs coming within minute of losing at home to West Ham at home. Arsenal coming very close to dropping points against relegation candidates. Again, at home. Chelsea drawing with Burnley. Yes, you guessed it, that was at home too.
Does that give a bit of perspective to all the doom and gloom?
Goes without saying all is not well at United but I think the relative form of a lot of other teams is being overstated.
Does that give a bit of perspective to all the doom and gloom?
Goes without saying all is not well at United but I think the relative form of a lot of other teams is being overstated.
The total mess he has made of this team is staring us all right in the face.
If we had nicked a goal at the end there and had won 2-1, people would have completely different opinions about van Gaal. Swansea got unbelievable luck to grab that late goal.
I think on the whole, that was one of our better performances of the season. We looked threatening, but the end-product was severely lacking and the middle of the defense was a complete mess yesterday.
I think there are a lot of players on this team who need to take a good look at themselves and really question their own effort this season.
But with the players we do have, you would expect better results from van Gaal.
I think on the whole, that was one of our better performances of the season. We looked threatening, but the end-product was severely lacking and the middle of the defense was a complete mess yesterday.
I think there are a lot of players on this team who need to take a good look at themselves and really question their own effort this season.
But with the players we do have, you would expect better results from van Gaal.
The strikers have been shit. We have been duped by Falcao's/rvp 's history...
Chicarito would have scored more than rvp and falcao scored...
Chicarito would have scored more than rvp and falcao scored...
Yep. Fine margins. If we'd made our dominance count in the minutes before they scored we could have been looking back on the convincing away performance we've all been crying out for. Instead they score with their first attack of the half and that mental fragility that's been evident since Fergie retired bites us on the arse yet again. In the grand scheme of things yesterday was a poor result but - if anything - an encouraging performance.
Completely agree.
Agreed.
Yep encouraging indeed, how many times did we test their keeper again? Our lack of unity and movement up front in incredibly worrying.
I agree with @Pogue Mahone - I always laugh when people say they don't mind playing well and losing, that's the biggest lie fans tell. Yesterday was one of the days I actually thought we looked good for long periods and played like a team, but because we lost the game, no one remembers that. At the end of the day, 3 points is what is important.
Performance wise no improvement on last season. If anything we are worse this season against the same opposition than we were last year.
The other top 4 contenders around us (Arsenal, Liverpool, Southampton and Spurs), definitely all have hit good patches of form lately and (apart from Spurs) are higher than us in the form table for the last 6 games, although they've been far from completely dominant either. I do think we have some major problems and getting top 4 is now a big worry, but you have a point nevertheless that there's perhaps a tad too much doom and gloom. Still, hard to blame fans when a lot of the football we've played when we've won has been shite.
My main concern with LVG right now is the way we've been regressing. I remember not being too concerned after the first few games when we'd had a poor start because I expected it to take a while for our new look squad and the new signing to settle and gel.
Some of them seem to be looking worse together as times goes on, and the football quality is generally regressing too.
Some of them seem to be looking worse together as times goes on, and the football quality is generally regressing too.
I agree ADM is a prime example of this. When he came looked like a world beater, now he looks average like he has been reduced to the level of the rest of the team.
- Status