United obsession with physical qualities

Trex

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Why do united focus a lot on physical qualities when it comes to signings.
We somehow consider players without pronounced physical qualities like pace, height, strength defensive liabilities and not good enough. Yet we struggle from the lack of qualities this kind of players offer.
This mindset spread to the fan base as well, if you go to the Sancho thread you'll discover fans aren't impressed because he doesn't run like Traore.
The lack of consideration for technical qualities is why we spent so much on the likes of Fred and AWB.
 
Because they’re important of course. Teams like City and Liverpool are dripping with technical quality but they’re all immense athletes too. Players like Robertson, Walker, Bernardo, Salah, De Bruyne etc. are all supreme technicians but they’re also marathon runners. You cannot be a top team today without physically intense players, I would say the best player we have in that regard in this team is Fred. Our fitness/intensity over the last decade has been an absolute disgrace.

At the other end of the spectrum you’ve got a team like PSG who have a front 3 that is absolutely out of this world on paper. However the lack of running power and intensity from Messi/Neymar means they will always find it hard to keep the ball or press effectively against top teams.
 
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Tbf we've signed the opposite sort of players too at points. Mata, Blind and Lindelof spring to mind. Not players I'd think of as having outstanding physicality.

I think you're giving our recruitment over the last decade too much credit by suggesting it was focused on any particular set of qualities.
 
Trex said:
Why do united focus a lot on physical qualities when it comes to signings.
We somehow consider players without pronounced physical qualities like pace, height, strength defensive liabilities and not good enough.
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Trex said:
The lack of consideration for technical qualities is why we spent so much on the likes of Fred and AWB.
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Fred is 169 cm tall, isn't fast and isn't strong, yet he's the one you single out when talking about our weird obsession with physical qualities?
 
harms said:
Fred is 169 cm tall, isn't fast and isn't strong, yet he's the one you single out when talking about our weird obsession with physical qualities?
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Fred could probably play 3 matches at a go with the same intensity, its his only true quality.
 
Your question would have made a lot more sense if you had opened with " Why do united fans focus a lot on physical qualities when it comes to signings."

RedDevilCanuck said:
Pace, workrate, and stamina are a must now.
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I'm not sure pace is a must; plenty of currently successful players aren't the quickest. Workrate and stamina are absolutely essential though, and much of United's current woe is down to their neglect over recent years. Ole rightly called the players out over it, but sadly didn't seem able to fix it.

I do think there's been an overemphasis on "bulking up" at United in recent times though. It certainly made Memphis and Lukaku less mobile and consequently worse players.
 
Tavern in the town said:
Because they’re important of course. Teams like City and Liverpool are dripping with technical quality but they’re all immense athletes too. Players like Robertson, Walker, Bernardo, Salah, De Bruyne etc. are all supreme technicians but they’re also marathon runners. You cannot be a top team today without physically intense players, I would say the best player we have in that regard in this team is Fred. Our fitness/intensity over the last decade has been an absolute disgrace.

At the other end of the spectrum you’ve got a team like PSG who have a front 3 that is absolutely out of this world on paper. However the lack of running power and intensity from Messi/Neymar means they will always find it hard to keep the ball or press effectively against top teams.
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Most united fans wouldn't fancy a Gundogan in our midfield if he wasn't already proven at city because he is small and lack pace.
He is hardworking because Pep system demands it.
Work rate can be improved, the margins for a players like Mctominay, Fred or Awb to become technically sufficient is beyond coaching.
 
harms said:
Fred is 169 cm tall, isn't fast and isn't strong, yet he's the one you single out when talking about our weird obsession with physical qualities?
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He's fairly nippy isn't he? Certainly in the way a centre mid of his type plays.

Stamina up there with anyone in the league too.
 
You need stamina and workrate, but also footballing intelligence and technique. Agree that pace is not always necessary if you can pass and know when to pass the ball.
 
I will be laughing at this silly thread once the f... scousers do the league over City the same way we did Arsenal years back.
 
It’s simply easier to build a team like this. A lot of teams focus on technical qualities and are not good enough. The teams that focus on technical qualities and get it right though are usually the best. Because it is harder but brings the greatest reward. A team struggling near the bottom of the table will likely seek a physical approach in a bid for survival as opposed to trying to play their way out of danger.

United haven’t been at the top of class in terms of approach, so we have opted for speed, power and directness on the whole in recent times because we haven’t had the patience or resource (human) to go another way.

Both qualities are needed in football though.
 
Trex said:
Fred could probably play 3 matches at a go with the same intensity, its his only true quality.
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Fred is our hardest working CM and also technically very underrated. If he was a new signing fans would rate him much higher based on how his played in the past 4-5 months since Ralf has arrived and he’d probably be viewed as a very good all round CM. The ideal CM to play in a 3 besides a CDM and a more attacking CM
 
harms said:
Fred is 169 cm tall, isn't fast and isn't strong, yet he's the one you single out when talking about our weird obsession with physical qualities?
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Fred isn’t even the most egregious one named, Wan-Bissaka isn’t fast, isn’t strong, isn’t tall and doesn’t half anywhere near the stamina Fred does
 
DeGea’sFeet said:
Fred is our hardest working CM and also technically very underrated. If he was a new signing fans would rate him much higher based on how his played in the past 4-5 months since Ralf has arrived and he’d probably be viewed as a very good all round CM. The ideal CM to play in a 3 besides a CDM and a more attacking CM
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Yea he has improved since Ralf arrival, I'll give him that even the loss of possession has reduced.
 
Rozay said:
It’s simply easier to build a team like this. A lot of teams focus on technical qualities and are not good enough. The teams that focus on technical qualities and get it right though are usually the best. Because it is harder but brings the greatest reward. A team struggling near the bottom of the table will likely seek a physical approach in a bid for survival as opposed to trying to play their way out of danger.

United haven’t been at the top of class in terms of approach, so we have opted for speed, power and directness on the whole in recent times because we haven’t had the patience or resource (human) to go another way.

Both qualities are needed in football though.
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I agree that stamina and work rate are important too, but not pace....you don't need all your forwards to be pace merchant for example, its good to mix it up.
There is a reason we struggle in possession all this years, we lack intelligent and technical footballers, we can't keep the ball for 5 seconds yet some fans don't see the issue.
 
Sandikan said:
He's fairly nippy isn't he? Certainly in the way a centre mid of his type plays.

Stamina up there with anyone in the league too.
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He's not slow but he's not fast either. His stamina is outstanding, but it's literally his only outstanding physical feature (the one that got omitted from the original list of physical qualities in the OP by the way).

Most of our players have some issues regarding their physical qualities, be it pace, stamina, height or strength. The only ones who are great at more or less every physical aspect (injuries aside) are Varane, McTominay & maybe Cavani and Rashford (not sure about the latter). Pogba's & Cristiano's stamina is horrendous, the less to be said about Maguire's/Matić's pace, the better — not much for a team that is supposedly obsessed with physical qualities of its players.
 
Trex said:
Most united fans wouldn't fancy a Gundogan in our midfield if he wasn't already proven at city because he is small and lack pace.
He is hardworking because Pep system demands it.
Work rate can be improved, the margins for a players like Mctominay, Fred or Awb to become technically sufficient is beyond coaching.
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Again, based on? His 79-page transfer thread from 2015 suggests otherwise — and that was when no one knew for sure if he would be able to play regular football again after missing tons of time due to a bad injury.
 
I would rather state the opposite at lower levels - we have over the last 20 years always had teams with players physically inferior to our opponents. And as much as I agree that skills with the ball is more important, I do at times find it puzzling that we have had so many lightweight players at lower levels.
 
Its just stereotypes. I really liked Blind as a CB despite people here saying he will be bullied, etc. Still ahead of Rojo, Baily and Phil Jones. The brain matters as much as the muscles. Big strong dumb only works with Moyes tactics.
 
Iniesta would have failed at this club.
 
tenpoless said:
Its just stereotypes. I really liked Blind as a CB despite people here saying he will be bullied, etc. Still ahead of Rojo, Baily and Phil Jones. The brain matters as much as the muscles. Big strong dumb only works with Moyes tactics.
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I agree, although I liked him best as a CDM. He played a couple of matches there early on, looked very composed, played simple passes, read the game very well so intercepted balls instead of making crunching tackles which is the better skill and more beneficial but in this league and at that time wasn’t really appreciated as it didn’t look as good as a crunching tackle.

I think with Pep changing the prem and Rodri at City, now if we had him fans would appreciate Blind more as a CDM
 
Trex said:
I agree that stamina and work rate are important too, but not pace....you don't need all your forwards to be pace merchant for example, its good to mix it up.
There is a reason we struggle in possession all this years, we lack intelligent and technical footballers, we can't keep the ball for 5 seconds yet some fans don't see the issue.
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The main thing is patience. Our fans unanimously labelled Louis Van Gaal ‘boring’ because he tried to, for the first time in the club’s history, introduce the importance of keeping the ball and controlling a football match. Of course, ‘United is all about pace, direct football, wing play and counter attacks’ is the retort. You can’t become a possession and passing team overnight, and I don’t think the transition is immediate in terms of tons of chances created etc. First thing is working on things like shape and structure and just reprogramming attitudes. It’s why personally, I hadn’t given up on Van Gaal like everyone else, as I was confident that we were in a very necessary caterpillar phase and the butterfly would have been a team that plays footy the way I like.

LVG had made some comments that indicated to me that he was fully aware that the team lacked a spark and that was what he wanted to address. He kept speaking about needing ‘speed and creativity up front’ in the summer, and I remember his comments about Young, his LW at the time, saying ‘he is good but he is not Neymar’. Ultimately, I think we as a club ran out of patience, because we are used to footy looking a certain way.
 
I do think that we've had too much emphasis on 'size' in central midfield over the years. Three of our four central midfielders at the moment are 6'3" (Pogba) or 6'4" (Scott and Matic), and it's not that long ago we also had another 6'4" in Fellaini. Central midfield isn't a position where size is particularly important, and indeed I'd argue that once you get over about 6'1" players tend to lose a bit of agility and acceleration. Perhaps the deepest of the midfielders can do with being a little bigger, but there's not really any need for giants.
 
Rozay said:
The main thing is patience. Our fans unanimously labelled Louis Van Gaal ‘boring’ because he tried to, for the first time in the club’s history, introduce the importance of keeping the ball and controlling a football match. Of course, ‘United is all about pace, direct football, wing play and counter attacks’ is the retort. You can’t become a possession and passing team overnight, and I don’t think the transition is immediate in terms of tons of chances created etc. First thing is working on things like shape and structure and just reprogramming attitudes. It’s why personally, I hadn’t given up on Van Gaal like everyone else, as I was confident that we were in a very necessary caterpillar phase and the butterfly would have been a team that plays footy the way I like.

LVG had made some comments that indicated to me that he was fully aware that the team lacked a spark and that was what he wanted to address. He kept speaking about needing ‘speed and creativity up front’ in the summer, and I remember his comments about Young, his LW at the time, saying ‘he is good but he is not Neymar’. Ultimately, I think we as a club ran out of patience, because we are used to footy looking a certain way.
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Can you stop making out that LVG was kicked out when things didn’t work immediately. He was here two years and it was fecking painful to watch the entire time
 
MadDogg said:
I do think that we've had too much emphasis on 'size' in central midfield over the years. Three of our four central midfielders at the moment are 6'3" (Pogba) or 6'4" (Scott and Matic), and it's not that long ago we also had another 6'4" in Fellaini.
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These players were brought in under different regimes and under vastly different circumstances, though. They are also very different players in terms of attributes (other than their height).

The very premise of the thread seems quite shaky.
 
phelans shorts said:
Can you stop making out that LVG was kicked out when things didn’t work immediately. He was here two years and it was fecking painful to watch the entire time
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I made out nothing of the sort. Perhaps two years is not long enough to reprogram Manchester United?
 
Tavern in the town said:
Because they’re important of course. Teams like City and Liverpool are dripping with technical quality but they’re all immense athletes too. Players like Robertson, Walker, Bernardo, Salah, De Bruyne etc. are all supreme technicians but they’re also marathon runners. You cannot be a top team today without physically intense players, I would say the best player we have in that regard in this team is Fred. Our fitness/intensity over the last decade has been an absolute disgrace.

At the other end of the spectrum you’ve got a team like PSG who have a front 3 that is absolutely out of this world on paper. However the lack of running power and intensity from Messi/Neymar means they will always find it hard to keep the ball or press effectively against top teams.
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Great post.

I would also add we don’t seem to look for intense personalities either for whatever reason. Most of our forwards are not able or don’t want to do the dirty work. They are flashy easy going confidence players. Di Maria, Depay, Miki, Rashford, Greenwood, Martial, Pogba, Shaw and so on. That’s half a billion worth of footballer right there and not a leader amongst them. It’s certainly something we need to look closer at. Liverpool could have 5 captain candidates on any given match day and we were trying to give it to Pogba who didn’t want to be here and threw it straight at Maguire as soon as he came in the door. We are majorly lacking in fight leadership and accountability on and off the pitch
 
Foxbatt said:
Xavi too. What is with the British and this crunching tackles, Up yours and all that sort of thing. :D
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It like Ole said, what matters most is who work hardest.....Keane-like mentality.
Mctominay is very liked for this reason, he looks mean amd leaves one on the opponent.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
These players were brought in under different regimes and under vastly different circumstances, though. They are also very different players in terms of attributes (other than their height).
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All three of the current 'giants' were either bought or came through under Mourinho. He obviously wanted big guys in there to try to physically dominate the opposition. We've just never really changed things since then. All three also aren't exactly the most mobile or agile of players. They can be fairly fast in a straight line, but when it comes to changing direction or moving from a standing stop they can be a bit sluggish. Scott's not as bad in that department as the other two, but it's certainly not a strength.
 
MadDogg said:
All three of the current 'giants' were either bought or came through under Mourinho.
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Yes, alright - but is there any reason to think that the club still adheres to whatever philosophy made Mourinho go for those players?

Also - nobody in his right mind would sanction buying Pogba for a world record fee just because he's tall. His outstanding qualities as a player have very little to do with his height.
 
MadDogg said:
I do think that we've had too much emphasis on 'size' in central midfield over the years. Three of our four central midfielders at the moment are 6'3" (Pogba) or 6'4" (Scott and Matic), and it's not that long ago we also had another 6'4" in Fellaini. Central midfield isn't a position where size is particularly important, and indeed I'd argue that once you get over about 6'1" players tend to lose a bit of agility and acceleration. Perhaps the deepest of the midfielders can do with being a little bigger, but there's not really any need for giants.
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Mourinho was clearly obsessed with height, you could tell from the side he eventually assembled (HIS side) that much was so. Personally I think brains>work-rate>pace>skill>height in football terms. But it's EASY to scout players that are quick and strong and tall. You can provide quantatitive analysis. And then you can claim to be able to coach them and mould them in football terms. But I think things like work rate and brains and skill are innate - you can't teach Traore brains, you can't teach Dan James Neymar's skillset, you can't make a player like Martial work hard. That's something that they either have or don't. People think it's only pace that's built in to a player.

But if you simply buy -enough- players that are tall and quick and skillful, well, eventually? You're eventually going to strike gold. I think the main reason (for instance) Quaresma from Sporting failed where Cristiano succeeded was simple - that Ronaldo was better physically. People I knew at Sporting believed Quaresma was the better player and thought we were foolish to spend so much on Ronaldo - seriously. But I suspected that as Ronaldo was 6'0 already as a teenager, and clearly had insane levels of skill, that it was as sure a thing as you get in football. Same with Rooney - a man grown at 16.
 
Rozay said:
I made out nothing of the sort. Perhaps two years is not long enough to reprogram Manchester United?
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The issue is that we were getting worse under LVG. Most people were somewhat happy with his first season and what he was trying to do, but instead of further improvement we started going backwards. Possession and control is great to have, but not if you become terrified of actually taking risks when the time is right which is how we were playing with LVG.
 
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