You think your post is sensible, and original thread, is in anyway sensible and relevant to the modern day?
1) In your OP you talk about going backwards, but set no parameters or signs of progress as we go backwards to give hope. So by your standards we could get relegated (I’m not saying that will happen) 3 years in a row and on the fourth year get promoted and you’ll start screaming “ see progress”
2) Later on your start harping on about SAF taking 5 years to win a title… and you point out his league finishes. We’ve been hearing this argument for the past 9 years.
Now let’s look at the facts. That was over 30 years ago. SAF took over a team of drunks. It’s probably no coincidence that our rise coincided with Liverpool’s long term decline, Souness really ruined them, and Arsenal’s mid term decline.
If tomorrow Klopp and Pep leave, there will be Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham, soon Newcastle… and don’t forget at least one of those two, most likely City will still carry on as normal.
So let’s look at the similarities: the board. Martin Edwoords in the 80s faced similar criticism as the Glazers. He was no way as bad and didn’t put the club into debt but he was known for being stingy and taking money out the club.
So tell me going backwards before you go forwards jump out a plane without a parachute and call it progress guy, what signs of progress do you want to see while we go backwards to make you believe ?
Klopp took 4 years to win a trophy, but everyone could see he was making progress.
Ok so let me address your questions.
Q1. In my OP I make clear that I do not think that United will be relegated any more than I think Brentford will finish in the top four. Given the size of our club and the investment in players I do not believe that any United fan would see relegation from the Premier League as an acceptable trade off for progress (perhaps some might to be rid of the Glazers). Ultimately, there are four primary measures of progress for any team: a) trophies won b) points achieved and c) position in the league and d) performances. In a perfect world, improved performances on the pitch win you games, games win you points and points improve your position and points and points (if you win enough of them) will win you the League. Surely we can agree on that?
Logically therefore, if we could see improved and competitive performances on the pitch reflected by a modern attacking playing style (eg: high-intensity, strategic pressing, ball possession and recovery etc) I would absolutely be prepared to see us drop out of Europe all-together this season and next if that is what it takes for a modern footballing philosophy to be embedded. In tandem with that, better player recruitment, evidenced by player development and improvement. I am fed up of seeing players brought to United only to get worse after they arrive. Eventually, just like Klopp at Liverpool (who you correctly cite) as performances improve, results will get better, our League positions will improve and trophies will come.
It may well be circa 30 years between the the beginning of the SAF era and that of Jurgen Klopp, but the formula for success has not changed that much. Can we agree on that?
Q2. I am missing the point here. So are you suggesting that we should not give ETH time to get it right? Or that irrespective of the crap that he has inherited he must get it right immediately? Ok so you don't like the example of SAF. What about Klopp? In 2014/15 Liverpool finished 6th under Klopp on 62 points. The next season, they finished 8th on 60 points. Again, 60 points is less that 62 points. They went backward. However, as we all know, during that same period, Klopp was embedding his playing style and recruiting intelligently, whilst slowly building what would be a CL and PL winning side. The next season they finished 4th with 78 points an 18 point improvement on the previous season.
I think you totally exaggerate the swing that is required to catch up with Liverpool and City. In 2017/18 (City's 100 point season) Liverpool finished 25 points behind City. One season later, Liverpool made up 22 points of that and finished one point behind City. By 2019/20 they had improved their points tally by a further point and won the League. The question for United is do we think that, given the time and support, ETH can do at United what Klopp has been able to do at Liverpool? If we do then lets back him and be ready to see United go backwards if we believe he can take us forward. But if we don't, then let's find someone who can.
