UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[Segment]

https://v.redd.it/rkeqcj4jtk241/DASH_720

anyone seen this?

 

[nickm]

Ah yes that famous election winner.

Point is we had a "virulent anti Labour media" long before Blair did a deal with Murdoch.

 

[Cheesy]

A lot of people happen to think Corbyn is neither principled nor genuine. That should be obvious to anyone who has followed the criticisms of his past.

I think this is where a lot of strong Labour supporters find themselves disconnected from the rest of the public. Due to the fact they really like Corbyn's policies and think they're the policies of someone who's genuinely trying to improve the company for ordinary people, they view it as a widespread assumption that he's a trustworthy and honest person. They seem unable to grasp that swathes of the country just don't see this to be true: leadership polling has at times shown him to be lacking in some of these traits among public perception to the same extent as Boris.

And while I do think he's certainly far, far more trustworthy and decent than Boris and the rest of the Tory party, like any politician he'll still engage in spin and will often distort or twist facts to suit his own narrative or argument. And that's not even necessarily a criticism: spin is an inherent part of politics, and anyone who wants to succeed needs to be good at it. But as a result if you're not convinced by his policies or ideology then you're just not going to see him as an honest person.

 

[Shamwow]

You can't help yourself.

I was so looking forward to the entertainment of three months of Corbyn negotiating with the EU. Would have outshone the past 3 years for farce.

I don't care if it does if it means we get a 2nd ref. Not that you have any evidence on it, Corbyn has recruited a stronger team than the Tories had. Starmer far outshines the likes of Davis.

 

[P-Nut]

The answer is clearly Labour then, I don't understand.

Exactly my point

 

[Ultimate Grib]

Tories are bricking it from the weather. MoD has mobilised troops to be on standby and prepare to “tackle the elements” on Wednesday 11th and Thursday 12th to ensure open access to polling stations all around the country. Anyone on leave will have to forgoe this and be on standby in case they will need to be called to active duty. This is obviously unprecedented as we’ve not had winter elections in forever but the response wasn’t of this scale even when we’ve had genuine emergencies like the recent floods.

 

[Cheesy]

Well said mate. His voting record is brilliant. He is against war. Against violence. Against racism - And yes, critising the Israel government on their behaviour towards the Palestine issue is no anti-semitic.

Calling groups like Hezbollah 'friends' could certainly be construed as anti-Semitic, though, or at least demonstrating a certain tolerance towards it. Which is the problem.

 

[Cheesy]

Tories are bricking it from the weather. MoD has mobilised troops to be on standby and prepare to “tackle the elements” on Wednesday 11th and Thursday 12th to ensure open access to polling stations all around the country. Anyone on leave will have to forgoe this and be on standby in case they will need to be called to active duty. This is obviously unprecedented as we’ve not had winter elections in forever but the response wasn’t of this scale even when we’ve had genuine emergencies like the recent floods.

Very intrigued to see how this plays out. Difficult to tell whether it'd prevent younger, less mobilised voters from going to the polls who may have done so otherwise, or if it'll keep oldies indoors who reliably always turn up. Could end up hitting both and cancelling out gains for either of the two major parties.

 

[Kaos]

Very intrigued to see how this plays out. Difficult to tell whether it'd prevent younger, less mobilised voters from going to the polls who may have done so otherwise, or if it'll keep oldies indoors who reliably always turn up. Could end up hitting both and cancelling out gains for either of the two major parties.

I would have thought a substantial number of older voters just vote by post?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I don't care if it does if it means we get a 2nd ref. Not that you have any evidence on it, Corbyn has recruited a stronger team than the Tories had. Starmer far outshines the likes of Davis.

I have no regard for the Tories at all. Davis and Raab are totally clueless but the outcome was a foregone conclusion anyway. Boris and Barclay claiming some sort of victory by getting an even worse deal by removing the UK mainland from the CU.
Starmer seems on the surface much more sensible and knowledgeable but the EU are never going to cede on the 4 freedoms which imo Starmer realises but not sure Corbyn does.

 

[11101]

So what do you want re: brexit?

The Labour policy is a confirmatory referendum on brexit.

Now that we know the only options are;

(1) Leave with no deal,
(2) Leave with a pretty bad deal or
(3) Remain.

Labour will re negotiate the best leave (with deal) that they can then put it to a vote. It seems to me the only way to bring people together over this issue.

The initial brexit vote was remain or leave. But people imagined leave to be whatever beautiful sugar coated unicorn they wanted. The Leave campaign actively encouraged this. Now the reality is as stated in my paragraph above. We have a decision to make.

Unless you think there would be a majority who want to leave with no deal? Which was totally ruled out during the 2016 Leave campaign and also by parliament.

According to Labour. The EU is pretty clear we can negotiate all we want, what we have now is the best we are getting and there is zero appetite to accommodate us further.

 

[Cheesy]

I would have thought a substantial number of older voters just vote by post?

Yeah a fair few do which will mitigate potential Tory losses - but undoubtedly still plenty who would typically turn up on the day as well.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

You've got me stumped.

Then read a little. It’s out there. You need go no further than their manifesto.

 

[Fully Fledged]

So the Labour supporters and activitists should have put their values aside and picked someone the Sun and Mail would approve of?

They gave Milliband and Brown a brutal time too in case you’ve forgotten.

Brown for calling a racist racist if I remember correctly.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Then read a little. It’s out there. You need go no further than their manifesto.

To my dismay I read the whole thing. Corbyn could always get a job as a comedian when he retires next week.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

According to Labour. The EU is pretty clear we can negotiate all we want, what we have now is the best we are getting and there is zero appetite to accommodate us further.

For so many people (Remainers), a Leave deal with a better customs union stance, and a clear freedom of movement policy... Is an acceptable loss. Sad but true and understandable.

The EU see that as ‘better’ and will happily agree a new deal.

We don’t need to re-litigate the whole thing. Just make it better, for more people.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

To my dismay I read the whole thing. Corbyn could always get a job as a comedian when he retires next week.

Then you know the Brexit policy.

What don’t you understand?

 

[EwanI Ted]

So what do you want re: brexit?

The Labour policy is a confirmatory referendum on brexit.

Now that we know the only options are;

(1) Leave with no deal,
(2) Leave with a pretty bad deal or
(3) Remain.

Labour will re negotiate the best leave (with deal) that they can then put it to a vote. It seems to me the only way to bring people together over this issue.

The initial brexit vote was remain or leave. But people imagined leave to be whatever beautiful sugar coated unicorn they wanted. The Leave campaign actively encouraged this. Now the reality is as stated in my paragraph above. We have a decision to make.

Unless you think there would be a majority who want to leave with no deal? Which was totally ruled out during the 2016 Leave campaign and also by parliament.

Sadly I don't agree here. If Labour put a Leave deal on the table its almost certain not to be accepted by the entire right wing pro-Leave group. They'll say its not really Brexit, talk about how we're being given a false choice etc. Indeed they may even encourage a boycott of the vote. If they manage to supress turnout - not hard after 2 general elections and 2 referendums in 4 years - then they undermine any perceived legitimacy the referendum has, and the arguments simply roll straight on. Its depressing as a Remainer myself, but I simply dont see how Labour can settle Brexit. Only a deal with credibility in the Leave camp can settle this.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Then you know the Brexit policy.

What don’t you understand?

What I was sort of expecting ( well not really expecting) was a more realistic sensible approach given that the Tories had made such a mess of cherry-picking during the last three years but no, it's a rehashed version of the 2017's poor attempt and obviously they haven't learnt anything from the Tories' mistakes. There's always a chance of Remain but against what in a referendum, and don't forget according to the manifesto it's remain with conditions, not as you are now.
It's what happens when he tries to placate the Leavers and the Remainers at the same time.

 

[Kaos]

Sadly I don't agree here. If Labour put a Leave deal on the table its almost certain not to be accepted by the entire right wing pro-Leave group. They'll say its not really Brexit, talk about how we're being given a false choice etc. Indeed they may even encourage a boycott of the vote. If they manage to supress turnout - not hard after 2 general elections and 2 referendums in 4 years - then they undermine any perceived legitimacy the referendum has, and the arguments simply roll straight on. Its depressing as a Remainer myself, but I simply dont see how Labour can settle Brexit. Only a deal with credibility in the Leave camp can settle this.

Why would you say that? If they can't garner enough of a mandate in the polls after years of making a mess of the negotiations, what makes you think they're still best placed to settle the issue?

 

[Jericholyte2]

Rumours circulating that Johnson has refused the Andrew Neil Interview...

Does anyone know anything concrete about this, can’t see anything in the news yet.

 

[Cheesy]

Rumours circulating that Johnson has refused the Andrew Neil Interview...

Does anyone know anything concrete about this, can’t see anything in the news yet.

BBC should empty platform him and have Neil just saying what questions he would've asked for half an hour while citing relevant facts - but that won't happen.

 

[Pexbo]

Surprised Pikachu

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Calling groups like Hezbollah 'friends' could certainly be construed as anti-Semitic, though, or at least demonstrating a certain tolerance towards it. Which is the problem.

But he didn’t do that. He referred to the negotiators for all parties involved as friends.

It’s shockingly misguided as it’s easily misinterpreted but by god, his whole career has been a fight for equality.

He apologised for the offence and admitted a mistake.

If people don’t have the intelligence to look at facts, they probably deserve all that Boris will bring.

You could take a blind poll of 100 people on whether Israel’s behaviour is acceptable and almost everyone is going to say no. They do some shocking stuff. The factions that oppose them escalate.

The middle eastern situation is so goddamn complicated. For the average Briton to reduce it to a soundbite and give it centre stage during our elections is absolutely insane.

 

[sammsky1]

Well that Channel 4 video on the other page is actually a focus group of how the Tories can win over the working class vote and it's surprisingly simple. Lambast Corbyn in any way possible and continually drum home the message that the Tories are the only ones who can deliver Brexit.

I don't think if Labour had played it like you said it would have made a shred of difference to that lot. They don't want their views on Brexit heard any more, they want the referendum result to be delivered.

So it’s everyone else fault except Labor Strategists and Corbyn? Boo hoo.

You’re forgetting that 48.2% voted remain and I think many more would do so a 2nd time around. And of the 52% Leave, many would have BrExit as a secondary or tertiary voting reason, so ‘Get BrExit Done’ isn’t a guaranteed election winner at all. Labour had to attack this space

Instead Corbyn’s Messages have been sporadic, haphazard and at times utterly bizzare: free broadband, Waspi Penaions, raise extra taxes from inheritance and successful professionals, neutral on BrExit, spend unprecedented amount in public services ... it’s all over the place! They have not done their homework of finding one or two foundational benefits that a majority vote bank seeks, to make themselves electable.

Tories have done so with their ‘anyone but Corbyn’ and ‘Get BrExit done’ and Labour have no cohesive reply. You can hate the policies but many people want them. You know what you’ll get with the tories, not quite so true with Labour.

 

[EwanI Ted]

Why would you say that? If they can't garner enough of a mandate in the polls after years of making a mess of the negotiations, what makes you think they're still best placed to settle the issue?

For the reasons I just gave, a Labour deal won’t be accepted by most Leavers. It doesn’t need to be a Tory Government but the deal needs to be credible among leavers.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

What I was sort of expecting ( well not really expecting) was a more realistic sensible approach given that the Tories had made such a mess of cherry-picking during the last three years but no, it's a rehashed version of the 2017's poor attempt and obviously they haven't learnt anything from the Tories' mistakes. There's always a chance of Remain but against what in a referendum, and don't forget according to the manifesto it's remain with conditions, not as you are now.
It's what happens when he tries to placate the Leavers and the Remainers at the same time.

Labour gives Remainers and Leavers 3 options;

1. Leave with the existing deal (assumption being it cannot be changed)
2. Leave with a clearly stated position
3. Remain

How anyone can suggest Labour doesn’t have a clear policy is beyond me. It’s the current position, plus a potentially more palatable exit, with a referendum.

To remind everyone : 52% of people would not have voted Leave based on the current offering.

 

[Cheesy]

But he didn’t do that. He referred to the negotiators for all parties involved as friends.

It’s shockingly misguided as it’s easily misinterpreted but by god, his whole career has been a fight for equality.

He apologised for the offence and admitted a mistake.

If people don’t have the intelligence to look at facts, they probably deserve all that Boris will bring.

You could take a blind poll of 100 people on whether Israel’s behaviour is acceptable and almost everyone is going to say no. They do some shocking stuff. The factions that oppose them escalate.

The middle eastern situation is so goddamn complicated. For the average Briton to reduce it to a soundbite and give it centre stage during our elections is absolutely insane.

This blatantly isn't the case though - he heaps praise on Hamas during that very same speech. There's genuine discussion, of course, to be had around groups like Hamas and their function in Palestine, and how they've come about as a result of relations and tensions like Israel, but to try and paint these groups as being ones with whom Corbyn was fundamentally opposed but was just negotiating with out of political expedience is nonsense. You can condemn Israel without saying things that would be construed to be anti-Semitic or offensive. There can be plenty of discussion and criticism around Zionism as well - the problem is that, again, this often hasn't been the case, when Corbyn or prominent associates have condemned Zionism outright without showing a willingness to discuss its nuances or complications.

 

[Cheesy]

Labour gives Remainers and Leavers 3 options;

1. Leave with the existing deal (assumption being it cannot be changed)
2. Leave with a clearly stated position
3. Remain

How anyone can suggest Labour doesn’t have a clear policy is beyond me. It’s the current position, plus a potentially more palatable exit, with a referendum.

To remind everyone : 52% of people would not have voted Leave based on the current offering.

I might be misconstruing your point here, but I'm struggling to see how they can have a clear position when you're saying that they're offering voters three different things.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Brown for calling a racist racist if I remember correctly.

Don't forget his sloppy handwriting, which was used as an example of how lazy he is. The only thing that got the press to shut up about that was when he came out and said he used thicker pens due to being blind in one eye. Although I'd imagine the S*n probably took the piss out of him for that as well.

 

[Shamwow]

This blatantly isn't the case though - he heaps praise on Hamas during that very same speech. There's genuine discussion, of course, to be had around groups like Hamas and their function in Palestine, and how they've come about as a result of relations and tensions like Israel, but to try and paint these groups as being ones with whom Corbyn was fundamentally opposed but was just negotiating with out of political expedience is nonsense. You can condemn Israel without saying things that would be construed to be anti-Semitic or offensive. There can be plenty of discussion and criticism around Zionism as well - the problem is that, again, this often hasn't been the case, when Corbyn or prominent associates have condemned Zionism outright without showing a willingness to discuss its nuances or complications.

It's telling that we spend time quibbling over this shit when no one talks about Boris Johnson's association with Taki.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

This blatantly isn't the case though - he heaps praise on Hamas during that very same speech. There's genuine discussion, of course, to be had around groups like Hamas and their function in Palestine, and how they've come about as a result of relations and tensions like Israel, but to try and paint these groups as being ones with whom Corbyn was fundamentally opposed but was just negotiating with out of political expedience is nonsense. You can condemn Israel without saying things that would be construed to be anti-Semitic or offensive. There can be plenty of discussion and criticism around Zionism as well - the problem is that, again, this often hasn't been the case, when Corbyn or prominent associates have condemned Zionism outright without showing a willingness to discuss its nuances or complications.

You’re conflating Hamas and Hezbollah. They have different policies and doctrine. You’re also not differentiating between the different factions of Hamas.

Corbyn isn’t opposed to some of their goals. He’s quite clearly opposed to some of their actions.

But the problems of that region are not going to end without some sensible heads that are willing to listen to all involved.

This issue is not something that the British public should be discussing during an election. It’s just not. Nobody is anywhere near educated enough to process it. It’s it that space that misleading headlines, sensationalism, clickbait, lies and propaganda can win out.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Rumours circulating that Johnson has refused the Andrew Neil Interview...

Does anyone know anything concrete about this, can’t see anything in the news yet.

And you probably won't. They'll all point to him doing the one the other day and just use generic terms such as "but other leaders have also missed other debates" conveniently failing to mention that he missed the one where everyone else got destroyed. It's the modern equivalent of letting all the others leaders doing interviews with Paxman and then Boris hiding behind a bush.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I might be misconstruing your point here, but I'm struggling to see how they can have a clear position when you're saying that they're offering voters three different things.

Its 2 choices. But you’ve effectively got 1a and 1b.

ie We get a better deal. Or we don’t.

Most assessments seem to suggest that a palatable deal can be made that some Remainers could accept though.

 

[nickm]

Corbyn’s Messages have been sporadic, haphazard and at time utterly bizzare: free broadband, Waspi Morgages, tax inheritance and successful professionals, neutral on BrExit, spend unprecedented amount in public services ... it’s all over the place!

Don't forget the one about rights for lobsters. (I use this as an example of labour's unfocused policymaking, not about the rights or wrongs of boiling lobsters...

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Labour gives Remainers and Leavers 3 options;

1. Leave with the existing deal (assumption being it cannot be changed)
2. Leave with a clearly stated position
3. Remain

How anyone can suggest Labour doesn’t have a clear policy is beyond me. It’s the current position, plus a potentially more palatable exit, with a referendum.

To remind everyone : 52% of people would not have voted Leave based on the current offering.

Corbyn has called the current deal atrocious so he's not going to put that on the referendum. He'll not be able to cherry pick what he alludes to so if anything is going to be different the 'credible' deal will have to be in the customs union ( not a customs union) and in the single market (not access to the single market). Whatever withdrawal agreement is agreed there is no guarantee that a trade deal is forthcoming so no deal is never off the table. And if the UK is in the CU and the SM there would be no trade deal because there would be no need .
He also says Brexit would be sorted within six months, the only way to sort Brexit within 6 months is to revoke A50 and then the Leavers will be jumping up and down so it still won't be sorted.

I will now endeavour to avoid the United result as I will watch it tomorrow so goodnight.

 

[Jippy]

Yes, page views are all that ultimately matter from a revenue perspective, but the point I was making is the the bulk of its page views source from users landing on articles from other sources, or those interested in gossip pages or football stories. Only a small minority of those page views can be attributed to habitual users that deliberately visit the Sun for their source of news.

That doesn't matter though as getting their stories high up on google or all over facebook and twitter is obviously a key part of their traffic strategy.

 

[Cheesy]

It's telling that we spend time quibbling over this shit when no one talks about Boris Johnson's association with Taki.

Boris Johnson is an amoral cnut and the media should be doing more to highlight the fact. Not denying that at all. It doesn't mean Corbyn doesn't have legitimate flaws though or that anti-Semitism should be dismissed, just because Boris is himself a racist.

 

[decorativeed]

A lot of people happen to think Corbyn is neither principled nor genuine. That should be obvious to anyone who has followed the criticisms of his past.

That may be the case. People do think that. But they know the same is demonstrably true of the leader of the government, yet they are willing to vote tory rather than Labour. People don't really think things thorough while applying reason.

 

[berbatrick]

But Labour gifted the Tories that narrative the moment they put Corbyn into the leadership! Everyone who knew Corbyn's record, knew it was open to these kinds of attacks. Labour was warned by so many people including a ton on the Labour side! Labour activists didn't want to hear. This is on you too.

2015 happened. Miliband was a universal figure of ridicule. He has none of the baggage.