UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[DavidDeSchmikes]

The line-up is emerging for tonight’s seven way debate on ITV:
• Richard Burgon for Labour
• Rishi Sunak for the Conservatives
• Nicola Sturgeon for the SNP
• Nigel Farage for the Brexit Party
• Adam Price for Plaid
• Sian Berry for the Greens

Source: Guardian

 

[ZupZup]

It’s not that this Tory government is good, it’s that labour would be worse - damming indictment

It certainly wouldn’t be worse for people living below the poverty line. It wouldn’t be worse for the homeless. It wouldn’t be worse for students, teachers, nurses, police the fire service...

It might be a little worse for boomer landlords though, like yourself. Fair point.

 

[Walrus]

Fortunately for me, its between the Tories and Lib Dems in my constituency, so pretty easy choice. If it was between Labour and the Tories then I am confident that I would go for the former, but it wouldn't be as easy a decision as it should be against the likes of Johnson.

 

[nickm]

You mean less reliant on print media I assume? This could help explain why older people are more likely to vote Conservative over Labour. It gets more likely with age but I believe the tipping point is 47.

Today's story below just adds weight to the initial point though. Tories are trying to spread disinformation. Some of their friends in the large media organisations allow this. Google don't like it apparently.

Google bans eight different Tory election adverts as disinformation concerns mount
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ogle-fake-news-manifesto-labour-a9223846.html

I agree 100% that rules on political advertising need massively tightening. But I think that blaming the media for Labour's inability to persuade people to vote for it is rooted in this sense of moral superiority you so often get from Labour types. It makes it easy to blame others for being stupid, for not getting it, for being evil, for being manipulated (and I think you see echoes of it in the antisemitism stuff too).

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I agree 100% that rules on political advertising need massively tightening. But I think that blaming the media for Labour's inability to persuade people to vote for it is rooted in this sense of moral superiority you so often get from Labour types. It makes it easy to blame others for being stupid, for not getting it, for being evil, for being manipulated (and I think you see echoes of it in the antisemitism stuff too).

Yes, but to be fair, that is your default position.

Why do you think the rules need tightening if the political advertising in the media have no effect on voters? Your post seems to contradict itself.

 

[Segment]

The line-up is emerging for tonight’s seven way debate on ITV:
• Richard Burgon for Labour
• Rishi Sunak for the Conservatives
• Nicola Sturgeon for the SNP
• Nigel Farage for the Brexit Party
• Adam Price for Plaid
• Sian Berry for the Greens

Source: Guardian

They should have brought back RLB

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

It certainly wouldn’t be worse for people living below the poverty line. It wouldn’t be worse for the homeless. It wouldn’t be worse for students, teachers, nurses, police the fire service...

It might be a little worse for boomer landlords though, like yourself. Fair point.

firstly I am nowhere near being from the “baby boomer” generation, by most definitions I am classified as a millennial! Not that I agree in such broad brush classifications - but there you go.

secondly I disagree with you that all these groups of people will be better off under labour - their ideology and policies just won’t work and we would be in a worse state after they start to take grip.

 

[sebsheep]

People in general like Labours policies.

The Sun, the Express and the Mail can lie all they want without repercussions. That is the issue. People who vote for the opposite of what they need ARE misinformed. That’s the big problem with Labour, propaganda is influencing others massively.

Not just the media either, politicians tell outright lies all the time and are rarely held accountable for them.

 

[EwanI Ted]

It certainly wouldn’t be worse for people living below the poverty line. It wouldn’t be worse for the homeless. It wouldn’t be worse for students, teachers, nurses, police the fire service...

It might be a little worse for boomer landlords though, like yourself. Fair point.

That's not necessarily true. If a nurse gets a pay rise, but the cost of living outstrips it, they're worse off. If a policeman with a mortgage gets a pay rise but interest rates increase dramatically, they're worse off. The only way that those people you mention will be better off under Labour is if they match their ambition for the public sector with their competent handling of the economy and private sector. If the latter is missing, everyone will be worse off.

 

[Red Dreams]

to those who say leadership matters, Corbyn would never have instituted the monstrous Austerity measures that has brought our country to this.
I have explained in some detail why these measures were never needed. The Financial Institutions that cause the economic crisis should have born the brunt of it.
But the Tories with the help of the Lib/Dems brought this on.

And it wont change with the Tories in charge.

 

[Segment]

Come on Boris, not a good look!

 

[Sweet Square]

what complete rubbish. You have reverted to tyle “if you don’t vote my way you are ill informed/ stupid/ uneducated” such a sad way of thinking, rather than address issues with labour, it’s always the blame game.

Epic reply, but your right, we should give away all of our assets to those less fortunate, that also means you giving away your iPhone.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

firstly I am nowhere near being from the “baby boomer” generation, by most definitions I am classified as a millennial! Not that I agree in such broad brush classifications - but there you go.

secondly I disagree with you that all these groups of people will be better off under labour - their ideology and policies just won’t work and we would be in a worse state after they start to take grip.

Many of those policies work well in many countries across Europe. We have the second lowest spend as percentage of GDP of all the OECD countries.

As a country we have not been investing enough. This is the reason the groups the previous poster mentioned are struggling.

Which polices do you believe wont work and why?

 

[Buster15]

to those who say leadership matters, Corbyn would never have instituted the monstrous Austerity measures that has brought our country to this.
I have explained in some detail why these measures were never needed. The Financial Institutions that cause the economic crisis should have born the brunt of it.
But the Tories with the help of the Lib/Dems brought this on.

And it wont change with the Tories in charge.

Quite correct.
What I detested was the zeal and utter ruthless nature by which Cameron and Osborne inflicted their austerity programme on the working and lower classes.
This while pumping billions into the banks.
Osbornes face in particular was almost orgasmic with the savageness of the cuts year after year.
Disgusting despicable people.
And now, they have been succeeded by unashamed liars who take the electorate for idiots.

 

[Red Dreams]

Quite correct.
What I detested was the zeal and utter ruthless nature by which Cameron and Osborne inflicted their austerity programme on the working and lower classes.
This while pumping billions into the banks.
Osbornes face in particular was almost orgasmic with the savageness of the cuts year after year.
Disgusting despicable people.
And now, they have been succeeded by unashamed liars who take the electorate for idiots.

The glee with which these measures were instituted was in my view pent up payback for the years the working class actually thrived at the "expense of the those who had wealth".

This was their golden opportunity.

 

[SteveJ]

This sums up Bandwagon Boris Johnson:

2008: Boris Johnson at the Pride London march

2019: The Conservative manifesto contains a mere two references to LGBT people,
and no reference at all to gender identity or to trans people.

 

[Buster15]

The glee with which these measures were instituted was in my view pent up payback for the years the working class actually thrived at the "expense of the those who had wealth".

This was their golden opportunity.

When did the working class actually thrive at the expense of those with wealth.
Reason I say this is that the gap between the 'rich' and those working classes has progressively widened year on year. And this is the case in virtually every metric with pay/wages increasing by the biggest rate.

 

[sun_tzu]

The line-up is emerging for tonight’s seven way debate on ITV:
• Richard Burgon for Labour
• Rishi Sunak for the Conservatives
• Nicola Sturgeon for the SNP
• Nigel Farage for the Brexit Party
• Adam Price for Plaid
• Sian Berry for the Greens

Source: Guardian

Burgon.. I think even Diane abbot would do better than him

 

[sammsky1]

Genuine question to current labour supporters who aren’t fans of Corbyn. Who would you like as leader?

Caroline Lucus (enjoin from Green)
Jess Phillips
David Milliband (rejoin from wilderness)

I’d campaign on doorsteps for any of them.

 

[nickm]

Yes, but to be fair, that is your default position.

Why do you think the rules need tightening if the political advertising in the media have no effect on voters? Your post seems to contradict itself.

I didn’t say political advertising had no effect. I said that people had less reliance on the likes of the Mail, Sun etc for their info. Paid for Political advertising online is often weapons grade propaganda and needs far tighter regulation

 

[Red Dreams]

When did the working class actually thrive at the expense of those with wealth.
Reason I say this is that the gap between the 'rich' and those working classes has progressively widened year on year. And this is the case in virtually every metric with pay/wages increasing by the biggest rate.

I agree. But those who have money always feel they are paying 'far too much' . In their view working people should be bearing the brunt of the taxes. They are job creators after all.
We always needed to look at waste, which I feel past Old labour governments were not too good at. Why we got Thatcher.

 

[RedC]

I used productivity data to illustrate what many people back in the mid 2000's recognised as a given which was an overloaded public sector where money was spent without proper scrunity. The business I now run was a beneficiary of this... It was common knowledge that if it were a local authority project the price was inflated by 20%.

Of course our debt has a relationship with the amount we can spend. Our interest bill is currently larger than our transport, housing or policing budgets. How big do you think is too big? Plus even if you believe the deficit didn't matter, why not combine responsible spending increases over 6 years with tax cuts targeted at poorer people? It's a hell of a lot easier to reverse a £50b per annum tax cut when a recession hits than it is to try to claw it back via cuts.

I don't think it's the benefit of hindsight that shows spend was far too high. As I said every family knows that when times are financially good you put something away for when times aren't so good.

The problem was Blair genuinely (and stupidly) thought it was the end of boom/bust cycles. Him and Brown were naive in the extreme.

Ireland's tax to GDP ratio is around 23% compared with UK over 33%

You were discussing taxes in relation to cost for the average person, and mentioned Ireland as a low tax country. The average person in Ireland pays more tax than someone in the UK. Obviously we are low tax for companies, but that has nothing to do with how much it's costing the people in Ireland.

 

[sammsky1]

Marr tried his best. But he doesn’t have the aura or gravitas to spotlight bullshit or exaggerated claims.

Net net, BJ managed to navigate the interview without massive scandal, despite being guilty of a shit-ton of faults and scandal.

I think this was a Tory/BBC collusion. Doubt BJ will now face Neil as he and is supporters will claim BBC have had their ‘interrogation’.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

The line-up is emerging for tonight’s seven way debate on ITV:
• Richard Burgon for Labour
• Rishi Sunak for the Conservatives
• Nicola Sturgeon for the SNP
• Nigel Farage for the Brexit Party
• Adam Price for Plaid
• Sian Berry for the Greens

Source: Guardian

They’re trying so hard to appease to the Brexit idiots in the Labour heartlands to the point they have sidelined figures with any public speaking credibility like Starmer for these kind of debates so we’re getting treated to fecking Burgeon. Great

fecking glad it will be over in 11 days either way.

 

[Mockney]

I agree 100% that rules on political advertising need massively tightening. But I think that blaming the media for Labour's inability to persuade people to vote for it is rooted in this sense of moral superiority you so often get from Labour types. It makes it easy to blame others for being stupid, for not getting it, for being evil, for being manipulated (and I think you see echoes of it in the antisemitism stuff too).

And yet Labour were (and still are - though thankfully less now the Libs revoke policy has proved an inevitable vote killer) relentlessly chastised for refusing to outright abandon Leave voters and any attempt to win them round, despite being just as necessary a voting bloc to electoral victory, in service of a fully vocal, constantly shifting pro-remain stance which was entirely rooted in moral superiority, always presumed (and frequently presented) on the idea that trying to win these stupid racists back was a lost cause, and by largely the same nostalgic “sensible centrists” who demand their attitudes be pandered to, and treated with respect, or else they’ll sulk off and vote for the dark side, just to teach them a lesson!

Everyone to the left is a rabid radicalised Corbynista, and everyone to the right a swivel eyed racist... but calling ME a Tory is too far, sir! I can no longer vote to keep them out, and actually it’s all your fault. Good day!

Again, it’s this weird insistence that there’s some kind of real objective norm, and that it’s THIS!!! And that everyone who doesn’t agree with it needs to either pander to it, or grudgingly accept it, but anyone whose already onside needs to do nothing at all.

 

[Buster15]

Marr tried his best. But he doesn’t have the aura or gravitas to spotlight bullshit or exaggerated claims.

Net net, BJ managed to navigate the interview without massive scandal, despite being guilty of a shit-ton of faults and scandal.

I think this was a Tory/BBC collusion. Doubt BJ will now face Neil as he and is supporters will claim BBC have had their ‘interrogation’.

It is infuriating how easily he gets away with barefaced
lies and simply making things up.
Anybody with even half a functioning brain cell should be perfectly able to pin him down and insist that he answers a question instead of spouting the same old rubbish.
These so called tv debates denigrate into a Tory party political broadcast.

 

[TheGame]

Anyone who falls for this BS deserves what they get as far as I'm concerned. The lies told by Boris and Patel over this incident are outrageous.

 

[TheGame]

After the 50,000 is shown to be a lie, James not so Cleverly is carrying on sprouting the the same lie:

 

[Buster15]

Caroline Lucus (enjoin from Green)
Jess Phillips
David Milliband (rejoin from wilderness)

I’d campaign on doorsteps for any of them.

Well you won't be doing any campaigning any time soon.
There are far more likely candidates who, in my opinion include - Starmer, Benn and a very tenacious lady called Longbailey.
Anyone of these would have given Boris a run for his considerable money.

 

[sammsky1]

Well you won't be doing any campaigning any time soon.
There are far more likely candidates who, in my opinion include - Starmer, Benn and a very tenacious lady called Longbailey.
Anyone of these would have given Boris a run for his considerable money.

IMO, none of those have the charisma or gravitas to attract the centrist left.

 

[TheGame]

The line-up is emerging for tonight’s seven way debate on ITV:
• Richard Burgon for Labour
• Rishi Sunak for the Conservatives
• Nicola Sturgeon for the SNP
• Nigel Farage for the Brexit Party
• Adam Price for Plaid
• Sian Berry for the Greens

Source: Guardian

Farage isn't even a bloody candidate in the election. He's head of a party where no one is allowed to challenge him for Leader. Labour should have sent Starmer.

 

[TheGame]

IMO, none of those have the charisma or gravitas to attract the centrist left.

Not sure about charisma but I think Starmer might attract more voters from the centre.

 

[sun_tzu]

Caroline Lucus (enjoin from Green)
Jess Phillips
David Milliband (rejoin from wilderness)

I’d campaign on doorsteps for any of them.

Would be my pick.
Suspect we will end up with wrong daily or another momentum mouthpiece instead

 

[Buster15]

After the 50,000 is shown to be a lie, James not so Cleverly is carrying on sprouting the the same lie:

In all my time I have to say that I have never experienced a political party whose campaign is so blatantly based on lies.
It is utter shameful and they are a disgrace.
And yet they are getting away with it as the majority of the electorate seem happy to swallow their lies.
And the reason is that Corbyn is simply unelectable. Full stop.

 

[TheGame]

In all my time I have to say that I have never experienced a political party whose campaign is so blatantly based on lies.
It is utter shameful and they are a disgrace.
And yet they are getting away with it as the majority of the electorate seem happy to swallow their lies.
And the reason is that Corbyn is simply unelectable. Full stop.

I have to agree, the outright robotic lies told day after day are a disgrace and the lack of media challenge on them as well. No one is held accountable for anything these days, it is merely brushed off. The only way to counteract this to challenge them straight up to their faces and show them up but no one with any clout has done that.

 

[sun_tzu]

Farage isn't even a bloody candidate in the election. He's head of a party where no one is allowed to challenge him for Leader. Labour should have sent Starmer.

Sturgeon isn't a candidate in this election either
Hopefully farrage gets held to account for being a slimey racist ... But given he's up against the likes of burgeon I won't hold my breath

 

[Josep Dowling]

Quite simply, the majority of people I know voting for Boris and 'hate' Jeremy Corbyn are completely uninformed. The more politically active you are, the more you are to vote Labour.

The people I see on Facebook and social media supporting Bo Jo are very quick to say 'Don't shove your beliefs at me, I can vote for who I want'. They believe something that isn't necessarily true and are not paying attention.

Such a ridiculous statement. Before you ask I don’t have a particular party I lean towards but to suggest the more informed would vote for Labour is laughable.

You’re implying you’re more intelligent because you vote for a particular party.

 

[nickm]

I have to agree, the outright robotic lies told day after day are a disgrace and the lack of media challenge on them as well. No one is held accountable for anything these days, it is merely brushed off. The only way to counteract this to challenge them straight up to their faces and show them up but no one with any clout has done that.

I agree, it is depressing and it's nobody is paying an electoral price for it. I'm not sure the media is equipped for this kind of thing either.

 

[owlo]

Whether you like BJ or not, if you compare him with JC he is a far more accomplished Leader and on the world stage I have no doubts about who would ensure we remain friends with our friends.

This is satire right?

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Many of those policies work well in many countries across Europe. We have the second lowest spend as percentage of GDP of all the OECD countries.

As a country we have not been investing enough. This is the reason the groups the previous poster mentioned are struggling.

Which polices do you believe wont work and why?

re-nationalisation and I hardly need to explain why.