It's true tbf, albeit unless we all live like monks.
UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80
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It is, but obviously if you're cash-poor/asset-rich as many London homeowners are, then you certainly don't feel wealthy, especially when you factor in transport, cost of living etc..
I'm from E. Yorks, which has some of the cheapest housing in the UK though, so I understand why we get little sympathy from the rest of the country.
feck this Earth. Fake News is everywhere. There is no escape. At least be a little less brazen ffs.
Ha! Good question.I agree that Brexit party and Lib Dems are imploding. I also do see a small possibility for either a hung parliament or a small Tory minority. Despite the huge gap in the polls.
I strongly disagree with all of your interpretations in relation to the impact of the anti semitism allegations. I think it is bad for Labour, there is no way it will gain them votes. It is a smear imo, but it has been repeated so many times people may buy into it.
Islamophobia or anti immigrant sentiment could potentially gain a party some votes. As we have seen from the brexit campaign, UKIP etc over the last few years.
I don't want to get too far down this rabbithole, and I agree the optics are bad. It's fine to put in a model, but really difficult to justify when discussing. (I also don't believe it's completely a smear. Corbyn has been pretty complicit to my mind.) However....
I think the main questions are: [And these questions are mostly applicable to 18-50 Brexit voters]
Do C1 C2 D whites like Jews? Is a healthy minority succeptible to conspiracy theories?
Do BAME people like jews? Is Israel polarising enough to ignite subconcious antisemitism?
Do either of these groups think that Jews 'brought this on themselves' ?
Additionally, will more Jews vote conservative due to this issue? Jews tend to vote conservative or tactically anyway, though they are also remain. This is one demographic that the lib dems have successfully targeted. https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/election-poll-2019-survation-jn/ - That article is slightly wrong'; the conservatives are 13 points down on 2016 not 3 points. https://www.thejc.com/news/the-diar...may-2016-1.439363?highlight=conservative~poll
This poll is interesting, because it shows that Brexit is almost as important to Jews as Antisemitism. For those [Non Jewish] voters in the Labour heartlands, Jews aren't gonna figure much on their list of priorities. It will be a minor psychological push in either direction.
I do believe that Jews are scared of Corbyn, but not that they will impact the election in a way that favours the Conservatives. (They may lose a seat or two to the libs because of it)
My opinion: Anti-Jew and Anti-Israel wins votes too unfortunately. Always has.
This isn't constructive so my apologies in advance to any of the discourse, and this frankly isn't directed to anyone in particular but this is sad joke that opinions here are actual reflective criticisms in the general public and it's deeply upsetting to anyone who genuinely cares about politics and everyday people's lives. Actually had to post for the first time in god knows how long just to vent at how rich it is that you have people either openly boasting right wing NPC talking points unironically, or posting the most blatant "I vote Tory but cant ground my reasoning in any philosophical axioms so im going to pretend to fence sit and call both sides awful as my contribution to the conversation to muddy the water".
With no hyperbole, the absolute bottom line is this conservative government both now, and historically have caused demonstrable harm to society and the most vulnerable people within it, the idea that people's votes dont carry any responsibility is sickening, if you are putting a cross in the conservative box come election day you are actively a part of a sickening regime bent on nothing other than continuing an ideological class war that followed through to its ends is killing people in their thousands and reducing the quality of life for everyone bar the absolute minority.
I'm not saying if your not a socialist your pond scum, I'm all for disagreement over particular policy or economic theory, no individual has all the right answers in incredibly nuanced and difficult conversations but identifying with the conservative party's core ideology, by either not doing your due diligence to understand what it is, or actively endorsing it makes you either stupid or a disgusting human being.
Jeremy Corbyn is not unelectable - you've just been told so by some of the most malicious media bias from bad faith actors in recent memory, He's not a racist, and he's not coming to eat all the landlords and drape the communist flag over windsor.
With no hyperbole, the absolute bottom line is this conservative government both now, and historically have caused demonstrable harm to society and the most vulnerable people within it, the idea that people's votes dont carry any responsibility is sickening, if you are putting a cross in the conservative box come election day you are actively a part of a sickening regime bent on nothing other than continuing an ideological class war that followed through to its ends is killing people in their thousands and reducing the quality of life for everyone bar the absolute minority.
I'm not saying if your not a socialist your pond scum, I'm all for disagreement over particular policy or economic theory, no individual has all the right answers in incredibly nuanced and difficult conversations but identifying with the conservative party's core ideology, by either not doing your due diligence to understand what it is, or actively endorsing it makes you either stupid or a disgusting human being.
Jeremy Corbyn is not unelectable - you've just been told so by some of the most malicious media bias from bad faith actors in recent memory, He's not a racist, and he's not coming to eat all the landlords and drape the communist flag over windsor.
Well, we'll find out shortly won't we? If he can't win against this absolute shitshow of a government, then who could he win against?
As with most things in life and politics, I am not claiming there is an easy answer. I am more just talking about the spirit of the law/policy (as I would want it)- which is broadly that if people aren't interested in helping themselves, then that burden shouldn't fall on the state.
FOOT V CORBYN
That's quite the post. Very well said.
Sure, I understand that to a degree, but we're not talking about the average Londoner, nor are we talking about a gigantic hike in tax. My hypothetical 400k mortgage on my hypothetical 100k income is costing me about 2000 a month. That currently leaves me with 40k after tax and rent, or just over 800 per week to spend everything else. With Labour's tax plans, that'll fall to £775 a week. That's still more money than the average gross London wage, and more than the median household income nationally. If you think you're struggling on 100k in London then what the hell are most Londoners doing?
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This is part of the problem, and perhaps my bad for not defining what i mean by unelectable. i don't mean he is going to win the election i mean people are refusing to vote for him in the first place because they have been told he's not prime minister material and that in turn has been fed through the news cycle in a number of areas, the latest being anti semitism. do you really think he is an anti Semite? because i as a labour party member in full disclosure have looked into this for the last 6 months as it had weighed on my mind (no smoke without fire etc) conducted my own research, even got into contact with a lecturer at the university of bristol who is doing a research paper on it, and its 100% without a shady of a doubt an absolute smear job. There is no structural anti semitism in the labour party, however there are shitty people within it who do have crap views, in the same vein as in the tory party or the lib dems or anywhere else in society. Its a shitty slam dunk to keep the headlines off actual policy positions.
Surely that disposable income can't fall from over £3,200 a month to £750? Sounds excessive. No-one's saying £100k is a struggle for most, but you're not exactly living the lifestyle of a premier league footballer, is what fellow London folk are saying.
I'm not moaning about my lot either btw., but anyone trying to buy a flat now is fecked, particularly when you factor in student debts, but that's taking us into a whole new debate.
But this is exactly what people like me predicted would happen when he was elected leader of the party, and why we fought hard to stop him and then later tried to get rid of him. I was a Labour member for a decade, but finally gave up and left the party at the end of last year. I think it's verging on unsalvageable - it's going to come down to who replaces Corbyn. If the hard left/ momentum lot manage to keep a stranglehold on the leadership, then I fear for the future of progressive politics in this country.
You have to operate in the world we live in if you want power, not the world you wish we lived in.
so blame the media if a vote doesn’t go the way you want it to? Demonising the voters who disagree with you as either stupid or a disgusting human being..? That doesn’t really sound like a rational argument.
would like to have a sensible debate without the need for those on the left resorting to insults.
you realise this is why you can’t have a sensible debate, and the reason why those who vote Conservative are not vocal - the abuse that comes straight back, it just stifles debate.
I understand the sentiment, but it's impossible to police or implement fairly without absolutely fecking over some of the most vulnerable people in society.
What a depressing outlook. What good is democracy if we shun away the values and principles that matter the most to us? You say you fear for the future of progressive politics, yet are resigned to voting for inadequate or heavily watered down progressive platforms just for a chance at power.
Heh, I edited - I meant per week, I've also refined my half arsed calculations.
I don't think anyone else is saying that a Londoner earning 100k is living the same lifestyle as a premier league footballer earning 100k a week either - obviously. Speaking for myself I'm just saying that there is nothing especially onerous about asking someone earning that amount to pay £19 a week extra to better public services even if, heaven forfend, they have the great misery of earning that sum in London.
What do you specifically disagree with about his quoted post.
Also would love to here more about why people vote for the Tories. Please tell me what they've done in the last 9 years that warrants another 5...
Not 'just for a chance at power', but to actually help improve people's lives. Without power, you can do nothing.
And the 'good of democracy' is to generally elect a government that's somewhere in the centre of public opinion on most issues. That's the whole point - to represent the people. If you can't convince the people of your views (i.e. shift the centre ground of public opinion to your preferred position) then you don't deserve to be elected.
The most important thing surely? What is the point in being ideologically pure if you’re never going to get elected?
Chavvy lad on Facebook just shared this. Couldn't be any more working class.
Fed up of this country. I want to split it in half and force them to live with their choices forever, the thick fecking pricks.
Fed up of this country. I want to split it in half and force them to live with their choices forever, the thick fecking pricks.
To impress fellow comrades at Islington dinner parties of course! (I also live in Islington
)I was sceptical and wished that the PLP succeeded in getting rid of Corbyn, but it didn’t happen. I didn’t throw my toys out of the pram and abandoned what I stand for. You quitting doesn’t hurt Corbyn, it hurts the Labour party. And you know who it helps? The Conservatives, whose narrative you’re pushing about Corbyn being unelectable. Instead of pushing around propaganda maybe you should double down your help and efforts to get him elected. After all he is only a temporary custodian just like a football manager. Will you leave your club because you don’t like the next manager?
If another 5 years of Conservative government is a fair trade off for you to get rid of Corbyn then you should be ashamed to have ever considered yourself Labour.
Chavvy lad on Facebook just shared this. Couldn't be any more working class.
Fed up of this country. I want to split it in half and force them to live with their choices forever, the thick fecking pricks.
Yet you liked the post to encourage him
I don't want a Corbyn majority government - I think it would be bad for the country for many reasons. I also obviously want the tories out of office asap. I guess what I'm hoping for is a hung parliament where some coalition of the centre-left can be pieced together, with Corbyn being forced to step down. I will probably still end up voting for Labour.
I don't ask for much.
Ah, that makes way more sense (my brain is dulled from the 7am shift this morning). I'd happily pay an extra penny or whatever on income tax for better public services- I've been using the health service way more than anyone would want to over the last couple of years and seen the issues. Having said that, in my first couple of years in London I remember having to borrow money to be able to eat and get a travel card etc...
I'm sure my mother is sick of me or my brother being genuinely amazed by how much change we get when we buy a round or whatever.
Let’s see if we can debunk some of those many reasons because you seem very indoctrinated to me.
Having said that, there’s guarantee that a majority Labour government would be able to regulate itself because of the PLP.
That's the screenshot that's being shared on Facebook. With giffgaff at the top and likes at the bottom. That's how thick they are.Yet you liked the post to encourage him
I like how they think being bankrupt in 1947 was down to a Labour government and not a 6 year war....
It was the EU's fault.
being called an idiot or a disgusting human being? Of which I and the majority of voters (on both sides) are not... what’s the point in such language and attitude. It’s so very easy to ignore, I’m sure there are some valid points, but they get lost.
The repercussions of the financial crash (did you see I haven’t put in a pointless dig at the Labour Party...) could have been far worse, and we as a country didn’t suffer as much as some. Maybe that was luck, maybe that was action taken by the government?
the problem with a two party political system is it forces you to make a binary decision - no party will ever be representative of exactly what you want.
So it’s actually pointless for me to start listing the positives and the negatives of parties - the reality is most people would agree with elements of both parties. Simply put, my opinion is that a Tory govt would be better for this country at this time, given what they propose compared to what the opposition are presenting. I dont need to revert to insults, fake news, quoting articles that I find that conveniently reinforce my point of view - I dont need to justify it. I won’t be campaigning on the streets, I will have a sensible conversation with anyone, and unlike most people I won’t try and convince them that my point of view is correct.
You can make a point about him being unelectable considering the current inclination of the country and your view will of course be dignified if the Tories win again, but I find the whole notion of abandoning the values that resonate most personally with you to be an unfortunate stance. Functioning democracies are supposed to provide a broad array of platforms that appeal to different inclinations. If you feel that a particular platform is one that aligns strongly with your values then you should feel at liberty to embrace it. Simply regressing to the mean with the hope that it leads to some good is hardly a virtue of the progressive left. The neoliberal iteration of the Labour government had led a devastating and borderline criminal war that helped claim over a million lives, hardly the the improvement you'd look for.
Unblievable.Chavvy lad on Facebook just shared this. Couldn't be any more working class.
Fed up of this country. I want to split it in half and force them to live with their choices forever, the thick fecking pricks.
You can debunk that easily with two Wikipedia links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_governments
We've had 6 recessions since the 1930s:
1956 under the Conservative government of Anthony Eden
1973 under the Conservative govenment of Ted Heath
1975 under the Labour government of Harold Wilson
1980 under the Conservative government of Margaret Thatcher
1990 under the Conservative government of Margaret Thatcher
2008 under the Labour government of Gordon Brown
I won't get into making excuses for either side, because you could do that ad infintum to point of it being meaningless. You'd be best off assuming that everybody's a little bit to blame, but that the buck stops with the government.
And there's no point even telling them this, because they'll look for the next reason they see fit so they can stick it to all the lefties.
Indoctrinated by whom exactly? I currently dislike the policy platforms and leadership of all the major political parties in the UK. I campaigned against Corbyn and the hard left in the Labour Party from the moment they ran for the leadership, long before the press paid any attention.
But since you ask, some of the more significant issues I have with Corbyn:
- I fear for the independence of the Bank of England, especially given the next government will choose a new governor to replace Mark Carney. Corbyn's previous dalliances with 'people's quantitive easing' were panic inducing to me as it would be the government looking to monetise its own fiscal policy.
- I strongly disagree with Corbyn's approach to foreign policy. His previous calls for NATO to disband are extremely alarming to me, especially with an aggressive and autocratic Russia. The borders of Europe recently changed by force - who would have thought we'd be saying that in 2019? Corbyn's response to the Salisbury attacks - where Russia used chemical weapons on British soil resulting in the death of a British citizen - further scared me as he openly and publicly called into question the British intelligence agencies. He even called for a sample of the chemical weapon to be sent to the Russian authorities for analysis (!). I mean GOOD GOD.
- I disagree with many of his nationalisation policies. You can make a case for the trains. Maybe even parts of the energy sector. But Royal Mail? Come on. Labour called for the bail out of Thomas Cook... a travel agent. In 2019. Mental. I also think nationalising below market rate would result in costly awards against the UK at the ICSID.
- Expropriating 10% of company shares is a terrible idea which will cost the UK hugely in terms of businesses relocating and diverted investment.
- £58bn for the Waspi women, with no means testing, is ludicrous. It's already been ruled on at the High Court - the ruling said: "This legislation operated in the field of macro-economic policy; the underlying objective of the change was to ensure that the state pension regime remained affordable while striking an appropriate balance between state pension age and the size of the state pension; an important consideration was the need to secure intergenerational fairness between pensioners and younger taxpayers; the fact that people live longer is important alongside other demographic and social changes. There was no direct discrimination on grounds of sex, because this legislation does not treat women less favourably than men in law, rather it equalises a historic asymmetry between men and women and thereby corrects historic direct discrimination against men." - Why would Labour, of all parties, want to reinstitute the 'intergenerational unfairness', 'historic asymmetry' and 'direct discrimination against men', in the words of the High Court judge?
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Challenging fake news is of utmost importance. If you allow it to spread it will infect others who will believe it.
Honestly, it’s not even worth it. Facebook arguments about politics with people who share stuff like that if a waste of time, you’ll change nothing and just end up pissing yourself off
I agree with both of you
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