UEFA Super Cup - Real Madrid vs Atalanta

Bellingham is showing Zidanesque touches there. Such a difference in performances as compared to the Euros.
 
antk said:
Once they get Camavinga back at CM, Tchouaméni becomes an option at CB. They're definitely light on both positions though.
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Yeah I figured they’d use Tchouameni there in a pinch, but seems hardly ideal, and Tchouameni will be needed in midfield with Kroos gone and Modric very advanced in years. I genuinely thought they’d sign a CB, RB and CM this summer and really run away from the pack. Their squad is bloody great through the first 15-16 players but seems to lack some of the depth they’ll need for a multi pronged challenge. They’ll need some luck with injuries. Nacho played a heck of a lot of games last season and he’s been let go without replacement.

Their attack is ridiculously stacked though, with the addition of Mbappe, and Endrick and the emergence of Guler. What options!
 
You'd think they would bring on Guler for a glorified friendly...
 
Bellingham showing his class, continuing from last season. Almost as if not playing under a total fraud of a manager makes a big difference.
 
Rojofiam said:
He's a good balancer who has always had exceptional player quality at his hand. Tactially not even close to the best managers out there currently, like Pep, Klopp, Arteta, Flick, Tuchel, and others. He spent 3 years in Napoli and Everton for a reason.

I don't know if you've followed Madrid's last two CL wins with Ancelotti, but I don't remember a single KO tie maybe other than Bayern last time in the semis, where they weren't the worse team overall. Outplayed by PSG, Chelsea, City, and Liverpool in 2022. Last season even Leipzig was better than them in the Bernabeu. Then completely dominated by City, went through vs Bayern maybe deservedly, but still had to rely on a refereeing mistake, and then Dortmund was more than a worthy opponent in the final, which shouldn't have happened.
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Tactics can help you win games but you don’t have the level of success he’s had without being tactically astute and a world class manager.

Winning is what matters. If you can win with full control great but you can also win by accepting defending is part of the game and that ceding possession doesn’t always mean ceding control.
 
Telsim said:
Bellingham showing his class, continuing from last season. Almost as if not playing under a total fraud of a manager makes a big difference.
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I think the rest and the healing of the shoulder plays a big role in this. Having Vinicius and Mbappé in front of you must be pretty nice again.
 
You can already see that Bellingham and Mbappe are going to link up beautifully this season. Going to be fun watching Bellingham play a little deeper this season with all that talent in front of him. Imagine having to worry about Vinicius, Mbappe and Rodrygo, only to see Bellingham making runs from deep.
 
Telsim said:
Bellingham showing his class, continuing from last season. Almost as if not playing under a total fraud of a manager makes a big difference.
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Bellingham was running on fumes with Madrid too by the end of the season.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Tactics can help you win games but you don’t have the level of success he’s had without being tactically astute and a world class manager.

Winning is what matters. If you can win with full control great but you can also win by accepting defending is part of the game and that ceding possession doesn’t always mean ceding control.
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I'm not interested in this type of results-based analysis. What Madrid does only works because they have the player quality to do it and some of the deadliest chance conversion rates I've ever seen. Ancelotti doesn't do anything special from the tactical point of view and that's the only thing I'm talking about here. I'm not doubting his mentality and man-management, etc. But solely as a tactician he's incredibly overrated in the eyes of casual fans.
 
Rojofiam said:
I'm not interested in this type of results-based analysis. What Madrid does only works because they have the player quality to do it and some of the deadliest chance conversion rates I've ever seen. Ancelotti doesn't do anything special from the tactical point of view and that's the only thing I'm talking about here. I'm not doubting his mentality and man-management, etc. But solely as a tactician he's incredibly overrated in the eyes of casual fans.
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Meh. I think tacticos some times don't see the forest for the trees. Ancelotti's tactics are decent enough. He just doesn't have the same religious obsession with possession and high pressing lines that some other managers have. He's also very aware that he has to keep on fiddling with the tactics to accommodate the megalomaniacal designs of Florentino Pérez. And that he does to perfection.
 
Charlton's fan did not play! Oprobrium, dishonor, shame!
 
simonhch said:
Madrid appear to have very few options at CB. Just Rudiger and Militao, with Vallejo in reserve. Alaba is still crocked and who knows if he'll come back to his previous level. Are there any noises about them buying a CB? I'm sure missing out on Yoro was a blow, but surely they can't go into the campaign with just these few options?
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Maybe they can ask the scout that suggested Kepa and get Lindelof.
 
I don't care about the stars, I watch Madrid for Fede Valverde. Dyed-hair Valverde is legendary.
Bellingham was also unplayable tonight.
 
Semper Fudge said:
Terrible odds.
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They just won it, have added the best player in the world, have the best Champions League manager of all time.

I think it's pretty great odds. I'd have them 7/4 if I was making odds. Especially when you look around Europe at the moment.
 
Withnail said:
Fair enough, but Peps style isn't the be all and end all as you've said and to be honest I'm not a fan.

You can't argue with his record. Scoring goals and winning matches is actually what the game is about.
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The issue ignored in the 'tactical 'discussion is physicality; a lot of these ostensibly superior tactics impose greater physical demands on the players, which makes it hard to sustain them for 90 minutes. A team that can sustain them for 90 minutes will beat RM handily, but most teams just can't do that consistently.
 
Rojofiam said:
I'm not interested in this type of results-based analysis. What Madrid does only works because they have the player quality to do it and some of the deadliest chance conversion rates I've ever seen. Ancelotti doesn't do anything special from the tactical point of view and that's the only thing I'm talking about here. I'm not doubting his mentality and man-management, etc. But solely as a tactician he's incredibly overrated in the eyes of casual fans.
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Ok but it’s not just results based. Part of management is looking at what you have vs the opponent and creating the environments in which those players thrive. Tactics in terms of how you decide to progress a ball, defend, attack etc will always be limited by the type of player you have so saying something only works due to player quality is just a stupid way to downplay a successful footballing model even if you don’t love exactly how the winning moments are created. The end goal of any tactical model should be to enable you to win games. Ideally you want your tactics to limit opposing chances and increase your own but it’s not the absolute pinnacle of football to have better tactics. Quite often better players just win. It’s why so much money is spent on Mbappe’s, Bellingham’s, Vini Jrs etc

For example were I to say “Guardiola’s tactics only work because of the player quality” I’d be absolutely correct but it shouldn’t ever devalue what he does in the same way I think it’s unfair to discredit Ancellotti opting for simpler game models.

In fact what exactly do you think Ancellotti’s tactics are?
 
Meh first half, better second half but need better of course. First game and all that. Glorified friendly anyway.

Jude, Vini, Fede were very good. Especially in the second half.

Mbappe was a big meh along with Rodrygo.

Not sure about that midfield. Really missing Kroos.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The issue ignored in the 'tactical 'discussion is physicality; a lot of these ostensibly superior tactics impose greater physical demands on the players, which makes it hard to sustain them for 90 minutes. A team that can sustain them for 90 minutes will beat RM handily, but most teams just can't do that consistently.
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And ultimately what decides anything in football. Player quality.
 
The attack is insane. The combinations and associations that can arise... There's going to be a lot of competition which is going to be great for the fans.
Today it looked like a 4-2-4 ? I guess it's inevitable that the team will be unbalanced.
 
simonhch said:
Yeah I figured they’d use Tchouameni there in a pinch, but seems hardly ideal, and Tchouameni will be needed in midfield with Kroos gone and Modric very advanced in years. I genuinely thought they’d sign a CB, RB and CM this summer and really run away from the pack. Their squad is bloody great through the first 15-16 players but seems to lack some of the depth they’ll need for a multi pronged challenge. They’ll need some luck with injuries. Nacho played a heck of a lot of games last season and he’s been let go without replacement.

Their attack is ridiculously stacked though, with the addition of Mbappe, and Endrick and the emergence of Guler. What options!
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I think they followed Yoro for some time, and probably don’t won’t to make any rash decisions. They’ll be fine if Alaba comes back, but he’s now starting to look very injury prone. Maybe they’ll revisit the situation in January.

They look fine at CM though and not sure why they would look to sign one? (Modric, Valverde, Tchouameni and Camavinga seems fine - with Ceballos and Bellingham options too in certain scenarios.
 
carvajal said:
The attack is insane. The combinations and associations that can arise... There's going to be a lot of competition which is going to be great for the fans.
Today it looked like a 4-2-4 ? I guess it's inevitable that the team will be unbalanced.
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They’ve barely had any time together to work on their “tactics” too.

Again quality players (especially in attack) sometimes just need a bit of faith and some simple principles.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Ok but it’s not just results based. Part of management is looking at what you have vs the opponent and creating the environments in which those players thrive. Tactics in terms of how you decide to progress a ball, defend, attack etc will always be limited by the type of player you have so saying something only works due to player quality is just a stupid way to downplay a successful footballing model even if you don’t love exactly how the winning moments are created. The end goal of any tactical model should be to enable you to win games. Ideally you want your tactics to limit opposing chances and increase your own but it’s not the absolute pinnacle of football to have better tactics. Quite often better players just win. It’s why so much money is spent on Mbappe’s, Bellingham’s, Vini Jrs etc
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There's an old joke about how the Oscars often confuse "best" with "most." Instead of Best Acting, it's Most Acting, instead of Best Editing, it's Most Editing, etc. The same idea creeps into fans' view of football tactics too; not what are the best tactics, but what are the most tactics.

When this is taken too far you end up with a goalkeeper and defenders who are great at 'building up play' but don't defend so well, attackers and midfielders who are great at pressing and holding up play but don't attack or score so well, and then when you play a highly competitive match ayou wonder why the team conceded a dumb goal or failed to score an easy opportunity.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
There's an old joke about how the Oscars often confuse "best" with "most." Instead of Best Acting, it's Most Acting, instead of Best Editing, it's Most Editing, etc. The same idea creeps into fans' view of football tactics too; not what are the best tactics, but what are the most tactics.

When this is taken too far you end up with a goalkeeper and defenders who are great at 'building up play' but don't defend so well, attackers and midfielders who are great at pressing and holding up play but don't attack or score so well, and then when you play a highly competitive match ayou wonder why the team conceded a dumb goal or failed to score an easy opportunity.
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I agree 100%.

There will be hypothetical perfect tactics, perfect angles and positions to be in at all game states, perfect movements but it’s impossible to always have that with no errors.

Football is a beautiful, complex and chaotic game at any given point and sometimes you just get the ball to the best player and see what they can do.
 
Calidad said:
I think they followed Yoro for some time, and probably don’t won’t to make any rash decisions. They’ll be fine if Alaba comes back, but he’s now starting to look very injury prone. Maybe they’ll revisit the situation in January.

They look fine at CM though and not sure why they would look to sign one? (Modric, Valverde, Tchouameni and Camavinga seems fine - with Ceballos and Bellingham options too in certain scenarios.
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Yeah I’ve also realised that Bellingham is more of a midfield option this year with the addition of Mbappe and Endrick. Meaning they have Vini, Mbappe, Rodrygo, Endrick, and, Diaz for the attack, and Bellingham and Guler who can operate further forwards.

Then in midfield Camavinga, Tchouameni, Valverde, Modric, Bellingham, Guler and Ceballos. However if Camavinga and Tchouameni are needed in defence, those options start to look a little thin and unbalanced. A problem solved by signing a CB and probably a fullback who can play both sides.

The defensive options aren’t that great tbh….

- Carvajal is 32, and can’t play every game, his understudy Vazquez is 33.
- Mendy is decent but injury prone and Fran Garcia isn’t of the required standard as his understudy,
- Alaba is 32 and has a serious injury, he’s out until 2025.
- Rudiger is brilliant but he’s 31. If he gets injured it’ll spell trouble.
- Militao was superb pre-injury but hasn’t looked the same player since he did his ACL. Will need time to recover form and fitness, and shouldn’t be overplayed.
- Vallejo is just rubbish.

That’s their entire defensive unit. Only Rudiger, Militao and Vallejo are fit for CB, one is returning from a serious injury and another is terrible. At left back Mendy is the only serious specialist option, but is injury prone. The alternative there is Camavinga who is currently out for a couple of months with an MCL sprain. At right back a 32 and 33 year old.

They are primed for a major overhaul of their defence. I am shocked they haven’t signed another CB, that seems the most obvious transfer ever. I also thought they’d go for Davies but I’m guessing they want to wait it out and try and get him on a free.

Madrid being Madrid, they’ll somehow get to the CL final with no fit centre backs.
 
simonhch said:
Yeah I’ve also realised that Bellingham is more of a midfield option this year with the addition of Mbappe and Endrick. Meaning they have Vini, Mbappe, Rodrygo, Endrick, and, Diaz for the attack, and Bellingham and Guler who can operate further forwards.

Then in midfield Camavinga, Tchouameni, Valverde, Modric, Bellingham, Guler and Ceballos. However if Camavinga and Tchouameni are needed in defence, those options start to look a little thin and unbalanced. A problem solved by signing a CB and probably a fullback who can play both sides.

The defensive options aren’t that great tbh….

- Carvajal is 32, and can’t play every game, his understudy Vazquez is 33.
- Mendy is decent but injury prone and Fran Garcia isn’t of the required standard as his understudy,
- Alaba is 32 and has a serious injury, he’s out until 2025.
- Rudiger is brilliant but he’s 31. If he gets injured it’ll spell trouble.
- Militao was superb pre-injury but hasn’t looked the same player since he did his ACL. Will need time to recover form and fitness, and shouldn’t be overplayed.
- Vallejo is just rubbish.

That’s their entire defensive unit. Only Rudiger, Militao and Vallejo are fit for CB, one is returning from a serious injury and another is terrible. At left back Mendy is the only serious specialist option, but is injury prone. The alternative there is Camavinga who is currently out for a couple of months with an MCL sprain. At right back a 32 and 33 year old.

They are primed for a major overhaul of their defence. I am shocked they haven’t signed another CB, that seems the most obvious transfer ever. I also thought they’d go for Davies but I’m guessing they want to wait it out and try and get him on a free.

Madrid being Madrid, they’ll somehow get to the CL final with no fit centre backs.
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Madrid will get Trent & Davies on a free next summer. Then they’ll spend their budget signing the best CB they can.
 
I think there were some rumors about some Brazilian wonderkid CB. Maybe the plan is to target him next summer after losing out on Yoro.
 
Here we go!

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I cannot believe some people here genuinely think that Xavi Simmons/Florian Wirtz is a better player than Bellingham.

He was unreal tonight, that was a fecking cracker of a midfield performance. Defensive output, passing range, dribbling, control all over the pitch, through balls, interceptions, tackles and incisiveness in the final 3rd.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
I cannot believe some people here genuinely think that Xavi Simmons/Florian Wirtz is a better player than Bellingham.

He was unreal tonight, that was a fecking cracker of a midfield performance. Defensive output, passing range, dribbling, control all over the pitch, through balls, interceptions, tackles and incisiveness in the final 3rd.
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The best English midfielder of the last 10 years.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
There's an old joke about how the Oscars often confuse "best" with "most." Instead of Best Acting, it's Most Acting, instead of Best Editing, it's Most Editing, etc. The same idea creeps into fans' view of football tactics too; not what are the best tactics, but what are the most tactics.

When this is taken too far you end up with a goalkeeper and defenders who are great at 'building up play' but don't defend so well, attackers and midfielders who are great at pressing and holding up play but don't attack or score so well, and then when you play a highly competitive match ayou wonder why the team conceded a dumb goal or failed to score an easy opportunity.
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Spot on Iker and thanks for the good analogy. Will be borrowing that.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
I cannot believe some people here genuinely think that Xavi Simmons/Florian Wirtz is a better player than Bellingham.

He was unreal tonight, that was a fecking cracker of a midfield performance. Defensive output, passing range, dribbling, control all over the pitch, through balls, interceptions, tackles and incisiveness in the final 3rd.
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He'd gone off the boil since February more or less, contributing with moments but with mediocre general play, which is the form he carried into the Euros. People are quick to write off a young player, but had forgotten how much of a complete player he can be. I think this season will be big for him, last year playing higher up meant he had more goals but I think his real potential is more that of a midfield powerhouse and I'm hoping that's what this year will develop.

I'm hoping he starts having big performances in big games too, that's been a bit lacking.
 
I criticized Jude a lot last season. I thought he was fantastic vs Atalanta and playing more as a conventional CM will make him be more consistent IMHO.
 
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