U18s: United vs. Palace

[Genius Me!]

There's nothing condescending or ignorant. We don't just play 442, we play 433 and other forms of formations. Barcelona have pretty much one style of play, Southampton aren't exactly the epitome of greatness, with no disrespect to them.

I don't get why you think we should model our youth teams on the way of Southampton, they're not challenging for the PL. And there's been mention of the players they've brought through the ranks but look across the premier league and championship and we have an abundance of quality that we have brought through.

The facts of the matter remain, we are one of the greatest teams in the world therefore it's a lot harder for any players to breakthrough to our first team. And I fail to see how someone can even suggest that our academies don't play the same systems and formations of our first team by watching one match alone.

Also you forget to mention some massive differences between us and Barcelona. Firstly they've been able to pick players across the country not just a 90 minute radius so they pretty much have the pick of the talent. They're also able to train their kids a lot longer than we do, I think we can train them for 2 hours a day or something (don't quote me on this I'm not sure about the exact times) whereas Barcelona have compounds that their youngsters can stay in and can train for much longer.

Until we have similar systems in place in England with the amount of time we can train the kids then there's just absolutely no way that we can compete with them pound for pound.

And I still don't see how Southampton have all of a sudden become this great foundation that we should all base our academy models on them. Across the PL and championship, who has produced more players us or them?

The intensity levels are so much different from academy/reserve to first team, it doesn't matter what we do at these levels nothing will actually prepare them for the step up than actual first team experience. The main thing is individual player development, we won't be bringing through a whole squad of players, we're going to be bringing through the cream of the crop.

But that's not to say that the academy don't play like the first team, we're not a one dimensional team nor should we be. If these kids are the future of united then a great way to implement new styles and formations are to try them out with these kids and see if they can transform them to first team level. I think what we're doing is absolutely fine and I would hate it if we only started playing one style of football and just played the flat out 442 across all levels, the game is evolving and we need to evolve with it.

 

[KM]

Meh, I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall here.

So that's how it works then?

Make a wrong point and then throw a hissy fit when called up on it.

 

[Genius Me!]

Also you need to bare in mind, that we don't have a fixed set of players. We have so much talent that we need to accommodate, which means we have to play different formations and styles so that everyone gets their chances.

It's all about experimenting and seeing what works best, not just picking players giving them a fixed position and telling them if you can't nail this position or this formation then you won't make it here. Plus as has been said, we play players in different positions so that they can adapt their games and improve so that if they do find themselves in one part of the pitch they won't feel alienated and not know what to do with it there.

Well I'd say the u18s play a kind of 4-2-3-1, the u21s play almost a flat out 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 on a good day and the first team plays mostly 4-4-2. It's clearly a school of thought that the players should be tactically flexible and understand more than one formation and style of playing, and it has undoubtedly worked well when you look at the number of players United have prouced from the youth team.

However, Southampton in England use the same system all the way up through the age groups, as do Barca, and it's also a strategy that is clearly working for them. I don't see what's so controversial about all this

The only thing I do take issue with is the opinion that just because a club like Southampton do it doesn't necessarily mean United shouldn't. That's an incredibly condescending and ignorant way of looking at things.

And our strategy is working for us. It's a lot easier for players to make it at Southampton than it is for players to make it for us. Okay we went through quite a dry spell where we had only brought in Fletcher. But since then, we've brought in Evans, Welbeck and Cleverley.

We now have a great batch of youngsters, by rights we should have had Pogba and Morrison playing first team football for us. Michael Keane is looking great and we have the next wave of youngsters waiting for their chances to prove themselves.

Of all the players Southampton have brought through how many would of those would have made it here? Bale definitely (even though it was spurs who transformed him into a winger) and maybe Oxade. But how many others?

 

[jb8521]

Realistically I don't think it's possible for teams to play the exact same due to basic differences in players games for example we don't have any out and out wingers in the academy team who look to put in crosses so you don't see very much of that. I think it's more important that youth players have the same footballing philosophy as the senior team and with united that's playing quick attacking football and not being afraid to try and play the pass or take a touch even when under pressure. With the inconsistency of young players when they have an off day like today this can look poor compared to a more rigid style of play but when it comes together like against Newcastle earlier in the season it really is great to watch

 

[samabachan]

I hate the multi-quote fests, but I am about to become a multi-quote Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime myself :facepalm:

There's nothing condescending or ignorant. We don't just play 442, we play 433 and other forms of formations. Barcelona have pretty much one style of play, Southampton aren't exactly the epitome of greatness, with no disrespect to them.

It IS condescending! In one breath you say it's not and then go on to belittle Southampton as a team! My point is that just because Southampton are not 10 times European Cup champions and 25 time league champions in England, doesn't necessarily mean they are incapable of worthy innovations. The suggestion that anyone who isn't on United's level doesn't have anything worth copying or learning from is the typical modern United fan's POV and the reason our fanbase is so unpopular with neutrals! We also play 3 different formations at u18 u21 and senior level as I have previously said, at least in my opinion. That's not necessarily to say it's the aim of the coaching team, but if you can't clearly see the differences in formation and philosophy in the three groups then it's pointless to discuss it any more as it's so clearly obvious.

I don't get why you think we should model our youth teams on the way of Southampton, they're not challenging for the PL. And there's been mention of the players they've brought through the ranks but look across the premier league and championship and we have an abundance of quality that we have brought through.

I have never said any of this or disputed the second point in any way. Nice straw man argument. I even said IN THE SAME POST that our way works well for us and Southampton and by extension Barca have a different attitude that works well for them.

The facts of the matter remain, we are one of the greatest teams in the world therefore it's a lot harder for any players to breakthrough to our first team. And I fail to see how someone can even suggest that our academies don't play the same systems and formations of our first team by watching one match alone.

This is so irrelevant to my point that I don't even get why you bothered to write it? It's like Cal? going into the Messi thread to post only about Ronaldo, it's just utterly irrelevant to the point being made.

Also you forget to mention some massive differences between us and Barcelona. Firstly they've been able to pick players across the country not just a 90 minute radius so they pretty much have the pick of the talent. They're also able to train their kids a lot longer than we do, I think we can train them for 2 hours a day or something (don't quote me on this I'm not sure about the exact times) whereas Barcelona have compounds that their youngsters can stay in and can train for much longer.

I didn't forget to mention this because it's again utterly irrelevant to the point being made, whilst it is all true.

Until we have similar systems in place in England with the amount of time we can train the kids then there's just absolutely no way that we can compete with them pound for pound.

I agree, but again it's utterly irrelevant to the point of discussion

And I still don't see how Southampton have all of a sudden become this great foundation that we should all base our academy models on them. Across the PL and championship, who has produced more players us or them?

Again, this is not something that I have said anywhere, a continuation of that straw man argument.

The intensity levels are so much different from academy/reserve to first team, it doesn't matter what we do at these levels nothing will actually prepare them for the step up than actual first team experience. The main thing is individual player development, we won't be bringing through a whole squad of players, we're going to be bringing through the cream of the crop.

Yes this is again true, of course it's a step down or several in intensity, but nobody ever said this is wrong or that it shouldn't be this way

But that's not to say that the academy don't play like the first team, we're not a one dimensional team nor should we be. If these kids are the future of united then a great way to implement new styles and formations are to try them out with these kids and see if they can transform them to first team level. I think what we're doing is absolutely fine and I would hate it if we only started playing one style of football and just played the flat out 442 across all levels, the game is evolving and we need to evolve with it.

I also agree with this, but again it's utterly irrelevant to the point being made.

 

[Genius Me!]

Okay so basically you agree, disagree or think its not relevant to any of the points. You bring up Barcelona and Southampton but then when I make points against them, you say it's not relevant.

Why are they not relevant? I struggling to understand your points now. Tell me your points again and ill try and focus on them rather than my "straw man arguments".

 

[samabachan]

Oh never mind.

 

[PS18]

We also play 3 different formations at u18 u21 and senior level as I have previously said, at least in my opinion. That's not necessarily to say it's the aim of the coaching team, but if you can't clearly see the differences in formation and philosophy in the three groups then it's pointless to discuss it any more as it's so clearly obvious.

There's no difference in philosophy whatsoever, and minimal difference in formation (and that's down to SAF's flexibility and issues with player availability). You're seeing something that really isn't there

 

[Genius Me!]

Oh never mind.

That's really insightful, so you spend time multi quoting me basically not actually giving me opinions but telling me I'm missing the point and when I ask you to explain your points again that's your answer.

Why don't you just grow a set and back up what you're saying and tell me why I'm missing the point and disprove me properly.

Edit: not meaning to sound a cnut btw.

 

[samabachan]

It's almost an entire page of arguing over something that was a throwaway comment from another poster, it's just so pointless to discuss further. But since you asked, there were two points, which I must have stated about 10 times now.

1) Don't be an idiot and suggest that the so called 'smaller' clubs are incapable of coming up with any interesting and/or useful ideas

2) United clearly don't operate the same system through the youth ranks the way that Southampton and Barcelona do.

That's it. Not controversial, not complicated, not worth a whole page of arguing over I don't even know what.

There's no difference in philosophy whatsoever, and minimal difference in formation (and that's down to SAF's flexibility and issues with player availability). You're seeing something that really isn't there

They really do. The three systems are totally different apart from the fact they all use a back 4 and a keeper. I think it obviously leads to a strong all-round tactical and technical education, but I do think the youngsters struggle at times with their roles and positioning when they come into the first team, and I do think the constant changes in system through the ranks might be an explanation for this.

 

[Genius Me!]

So you need to resort to insults to get a poor across? Classy.

And there's no need to make up lies, please find me one comment where I said Southampton are incapable of coming up with useful ideas. I've already said (which you've decided to ignore) that I may have misunderstood quinton's first point in relation to Southampton because of drainy's reply to him about defending. I've made it perfectly clear that I was saying at these levels there's no need for our you youngsters to play defensive tactics or to shut up shop to protect leads. So well done on completely twisting everything.

And yes we don't follow their same academy models, I gave reasons as to why we don't and can't follow the barca model but apparently I was missing the point. I also have my reasons as to why we don't have the same model as Southampton yet I was missing the point.

Maybe I should just start banging my head against the brick wall, I might get more sense out of it than the contradictions I'm getting from you.

Oh and incase you didn't guess, I also disagree with your last point. I would give you an explanation as to why but you'll just say I'm missing the point. I try not to be condescending but when I get called an idiot for something I didn't even say then it's kind of difficult not to be.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

I have followed our youth system longer than most and while understanding our processes...I have no idea how Barcelona or Southampton's U/8's..U/12's...U/16's or U/18's systems work and compare to their first teams to make any comment whatsoever.

Some of you guys must do a lot of travelling and watching youth football to make that sort of analysis.

The coaching staff at United play a basic structure and philosophy that is mirrored at all levels through the club. Tactical formations at youth level at United then depends on player development decisions...player availability...and rarely on the opposition.

United youth teams play a 442, a 433 and a 4411 depending on above circumstances...just like the first team.

If Barca and Southampton do the same...then well done to them.

 

[Striker10]

I dunno why people would talk tactics so much. We are quite flexible. It's not about results. Sometimes we loan players out and have no recognized striker. What we can expect is quality coaching which gives kids a great chance because then it's down to themselves and how they apply what they're taught

Kids are told to enjoy themselves. Play to win but the most important thing is to do your job. If you get 11 kids doing that, it don't matter about formation.

That's the beauty in our league. There's no point over complicating the beautiful game - though not this game so much. Was a bit of a pig