Heh, justice prevails.
Turkey
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Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. Want to see him lose the plot and accelerate his downfall now.
Best out of 5 then?
I think it might swiftly become clear that corruption in local politics is rife and that the affairs of regional and mayoral offices could do with much tighter, more centralised oversight.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/secim/23-haziran-2019-yerel-secimleri/istanbul-secim-sonuclari/
Link to Istanbul election results.
Link to Istanbul election results.
Ironic that he realistically needs to own Istanbul to continue having that kind of sway. Such is life.
Right after the unofficial count was published last night I spoke to my Turkish ex and friends, and apparently the general feeling on the streets is that this is the first genuine crack in the suit of Erdogan's armour. I was told that plenty of working-class AKP supporters have even grown tired of his arrogance, complacency and nepotism.
I expect a few very interesting years ahead leading up to 2023.
I expect a few very interesting years ahead leading up to 2023.
I'd say Ankara was the first genuine crack, albeit not the biggest. It sometimes goes unnoticed because it's not a behemoth like Istanbul, but it is still a very big city itself (5-6 million) that they had clung onto for just as long as Istanbul since 1994 and were determined not to let go of. The previous mayor was actually defeated back in the 2014 election which was a huge upset for the AKP, but they worked some magic that night and reversed the result by the morning. Not deterred, the same candidate came back and won it easily this year. I honestly credit that guy - Mansur Yavaş - for showing that they were far from invincible. He ultimately accepted his "loss" at that time but the illusion that they were invincible had been shattered.
Imagine deciding to hurt a countries economy, because they decide to buy something from someone else.
I'm reminding of the scene from Narcos, where Escobar is smuggling goods into Colombia, and the border guards stop him, and he offers them the lead, or silver price.
I don’t really understand the tensions over this, can you explain it?
I suppose its a case of "We don't want you to buy a purportedly superior anti-ballistic missile system from the primary objective of our main military alliance". The S-400 on paper is vastly superior to the Patriot system, it's also cheaper, and it's also sold by Russia, which is the boogeyman of NATO. There may be strategic implications to a NATO air defense grid. How does the S-400 network or slot into the existing air defense grid? Does it compromise it? Does Russia have a backdoor to shut it down if the unthinkable were to happen? Will it out perform Patriot so badly that Russia will corner the market on air defense systems? It's far cheaper after all.
These are all legitimate concerns, but at the end of the day, the outrage seems to me, to be about prestige and greed. We (the US) think that Turkey ought to use our stuff, because of who we are, and obviously because we want to make that sale.
These are all legitimate concerns, but at the end of the day, the outrage seems to me, to be about prestige and greed. We (the US) think that Turkey ought to use our stuff, because of who we are, and obviously because we want to make that sale.
Ah man, onion prices are going to skyrocket.
As I understood it it is not the missile system that is the problem its the combination with the new stealth fighter. The full stealth capability could be mapped out using the S-400. The US has made it clear you can't have the new stealth jet and this missile system.
Another country with identity crisis falling under the spell of post-USSR Russia.
Turkey and Russia allied, we live in strange times.
Turkey and Russia allied, we live in strange times.
Nothing confirmed, but lots of rumours going about that Erdogan has died of a heart attack..
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Not seen anyone reputable reporting on this, so likely to be false rumour.
All three cities are deep in the southeast.
And Erdoğan converts Ayasofia into a Mosque, undoing yet another Kemal Atatürk legacy.
Turkey's de-secularisation under him and his pandering to Islamist and nationalist fanaticism is kinda frightening to watch.
Turkey's de-secularisation under him and his pandering to Islamist and nationalist fanaticism is kinda frightening to watch.
Another right wing govt in another country undoing the liberal secular past.
It should have been handed over to the orthodox christians or kept on as a museum.
trade it for babri IMO
To be honest, that was never a realistic scenario. Even with a secular govt, Turkey is still a Muslim country by a massive majority and turning Istanbul's most iconic building into a church again would have been too controversial and counter-productive. For many Turks Ayasofia is a symbol of Ottoman conquest of Constantinople, it would have stoked flames by returning it to the Orthodox Church.
Honestly keeping it as a Museum was a good compromise and clever move by Atatürk in the first place.
I'm not sure with mixed signals coming out of Turkey what precisely this means. Some reports state allowing prayers at the facility will not alter its status with promises to preserve its past Christian values and icons. I would think a specific section could be opening up for worship. I would hope this doesn’t mean keeping people of other faiths and tourists from visiting the place.
My solution would be to facilitate individual sections for prayers to both Christians and Muslims to pray, while still preserving its openness for those wishing to admire the buildings beauty. I would think this would be a good compromise for all concerned.
In 2018 I visited the famous Corduba's historic Mosque/Cathedral. As I physically look like a Muslim, my companions and I were warned not to attempt any prayers. However, there was a Christian service ongoing. I hope the Turkish government does not go the same route.
My solution would be to facilitate individual sections for prayers to both Christians and Muslims to pray, while still preserving its openness for those wishing to admire the buildings beauty. I would think this would be a good compromise for all concerned.
In 2018 I visited the famous Corduba's historic Mosque/Cathedral. As I physically look like a Muslim, my companions and I were warned not to attempt any prayers. However, there was a Christian service ongoing. I hope the Turkish government does not go the same route.
Should have kept it as a museum with a section of the building reserved for daily prayers and perhaps a section for orthodox communion. There's no point in antagonizing the eastern church where they will end up having a burning desire for reclamation like Muslims currently have for Cordoba Mesquite.
How do Muslims look? :P
Imho, Ayasofya doesn't really need to be a place of worship in this day and age. 300m away from it is the enormous Sultanahmet Camii
...and the Orthodox Church has plenty of churches in Istanbul.
And yes, in my opinion the Spanish should either turn the Grand Mosque of Cordoba into a museum exclusively or designate a section for muslim players.
That's entirely the point, because he's playing to an audience of numbskull nationalists who are loving that shit.
Unfortunately, nationalism over inclusion is in vogue at present. The politicians are feasting off these locally marketable decisions with no regard or feelings of minorities in their own countries or how they're judged around the world.
Why should it have been handed to Christians, or kept as a museum but definitely not reverted into its previous state as a mosque?
Handing it out to Christians after it being a a museum for years would be worse than turning it again into a mosque 
Surely that would be dependent on the ownership deeds?
Artaturk will be spinning in his grave.
Will people still be able to visit?
Will people still be able to visit?
Visitors are allowed in mosques in Turkey so that wouldn't change. Exception would be prayer hours of course, when only worshippers will be allowed in. The main concern will be whether they proceed to permanently cover up the 1200 year old mosaics, which are a huge attraction, and which could potentially cause irreversible damage to them like after its first conversion. For now, the word is that won't happen. But the building functioning as a mosque with uncovered christian mosaics everywhere, doesn't seem like a sustainable long term solution but more like a temporary stop-gap until the next thing.
Kemal Atatürk is for Erdoğan almost what Obama is to Trump. He seeks to undo his legacy, pandering to religious nationalists, in order to prolong his grip on power. Much like Trump is blabbing Make America Great Again while shit falls apart all around him, Erdoğan is selling dreams of Ottoman greatness while Turkey's real problems intensify. I genuinely worry for Turkey and its people while this man is on the helm.
As an aside, because this is not exclusively a problem of Turkey by any means (as evidenced by the emergence of right-wing, autocratic govts everywhere), but I despair at how easily people fall for this age-old crap in this day and age.
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Even to the point of building a new international airport in Istanbul so as not to use the existing Atatürk airport....
This Aya Sofia issue just comes across as classic populist diversionary tactics while the economy continues to go down the drain. Sadly, it may work.
It was originally a church and its previous state was that of a museum.
What's the need to turn it into a mosque ? Are there suddenly no mosques in istanbul for muslims to pray in ?
Whats wrong in handing it over to the christians ?
I would assume its owned by the state ? Isn't the state supposed to be secular ?
Common there is absolutely no harm to Islam or to the muslims in restoring it as a church. On the other hand it could actually bring both the religions closer and make a better world not to mention the goodwill it will generate. At the end of the day its a political move (to bolster the image of the president domestically) and nothing to do with religion.
My wife showed me a Facebook thread from a member of her family about this. From the Egyptian side of her family. He himself is quite religious and a law professor but he was less than impressed with the decision, albeit at least in part due to the legal issues behind it.
However, there were lots of people on here, very much 'normal' people, who said things I considered to be quite unsavoury really. Very surprising and such a shame.
One guy pointed out many in the Muslim community relentlessly want total respect for them and their places of worship and yet this, in a place which has huge historical significance for the Greek orthodox Church, flies against that.
Real real shame, even if they do end up leaving parts of it open for tourism.
However, there were lots of people on here, very much 'normal' people, who said things I considered to be quite unsavoury really. Very surprising and such a shame.
One guy pointed out many in the Muslim community relentlessly want total respect for them and their places of worship and yet this, in a place which has huge historical significance for the Greek orthodox Church, flies against that.
Real real shame, even if they do end up leaving parts of it open for tourism.