Because there's a ridiculous diversity in situations and culture shoved in to a small space. What works for Turkey won't necessarily work for Syria, Egypt etc... and what works for them won't necessarily work for rentier economies in the Arab peninsula. It's not as easy as a homogenising one size fits all solution across the region.
Turkey
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Because there's a ridiculous diversity in situations and culture shoved in to a small space. What works for Turkey won't necessarily work for Syria, Egypt etc... and what works for them won't necessarily work for rentier economies in the Arab peninsula. It's not as easy as a homogenising one size fits all solution across the region.
Glad the coup wasn't successful. Hopefully the officers are tried for treason and for the loss of 190 lives. Nothing more destabilizing for a country than a military take over.
Give me five examples how he's changing it to an "Islamist" one. Furthermore, how is moving to a slightly less secular role a thing that deserves a military coup? Just because you don't agree with it?
http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2421&context=ilj
Have a read through that. Seems to be a relatively decent summary of the situation and the history.
Seriously a lot of those guys are ignoring the fact that Erdogan took a country from a very bad state to reach where it is now just because he isn't as secular as they think he should.
And a lot of his supporters on here are ignoring the obvious signs of an increasing authoritarianism, repression of independent civil institutions, and determined policy to concentrate ever more power in his own hands.
That's a very long reading man, but if I do get the time I shall.
The mindset that since the president leans on the right, the military taking over is justified
even if the president is a corrupt piece of trash a military take over damages a country to no end.You don't have to be his supporter to not support this coup though. Also sickens me how 200+ lives have been lost because of this coup but the instigators of the coup wont be vilified the same way as terrorists. They should be punished the same way. Treating civilian lives as pawns is disgusting.
Didn't realise quite how long it was! The 'background' section is shorter and should serve enough of the purpose.
I don't think Erdogan is as corrupted as some here think, but on the coup matter, look at Egypt, they fought for their freedom and the coup took it away again.That's a very long reading man, but if I do get the time I shall.
The mindset that since the president leans on the right, the military taking over is justified
It's treason! They have to be punished!
All uneccesary , the commaning officers for this coup should be trialled for this.
Obviously - I've already pointed out above that it's clear that many of the people on the streets last night protesting the coup were not Erdgoan supporters.
This is what Erdogan wanted to do anyway but now he has the chance so he's taking it.
Unsure about all the numbers though because they keep changing now I've read that it's :
- 2,839 military officers detained - 2,745 judges dismissed - 195 dead
Again, though, thats ridiculously simplifying a complex situation. Morsi was no saint either and the tipping point was an attempt by Morsi, democratically elected or not, to push for authoritarian powers. Whether that was mere pretext or not the black and white good guy/bad guy narrative doesn't really work.
From this day on, to be labelled a 'Gulenist' in Turkey will be akin to a death sentence IMO. Or as Erdgoan once said, the Gulenists are worse than the Shi'a:
So.....did these guys think they could pull it off that easily? 
Anyone know Erdogan's covert opinion on ISIS? Any chance for a coaltion down the line?
Yep. He can simply follow the Hitler playbook from now
Anyone know what Turkish army court martial is in th this circumstance?
Are you on the troll?
Yeah very convenient for him. Time to strategically imprison dissidents and dismantle democracy with support of the world leaders.
I don´t think your argument about democracy and elections is accurate. Erdogan ruled the country in a half-authoritarian, half-democratic fashion but also with a lot of support from the people. That was not great but you might argue that the ends justified the means: Most of the opposition is rubbish and he created economic development that improved the lives of many citizens. He also could have been voted out of office, if his support would have crumbled. He might have abused/gamed many parts of the system, but it was still a democracy. Under these circumstances, a military coup would have been wrong.
Sadly during the last few years he took substantial steps to change the political system in Turkey from a democracy to a presidential dictatorship.
That is what I said I May (in this thread):
In May the last political obstacle was removed by castrating the parliament. He can´t be voted out of office anymore and the political opposition depends completely on his courtesy. He already had massive influence on the judiciary, so they won´t be able to stop him and the media is either on his side or gets shut down. To be honest, I don´t know enough about the civil society in Turkey, but I doubt that there is anyone left who could stop him. He already took very undemocratic and drastic measures to silence them and nobody was able to stop him.
The military was the last institution who had enough power to oppose him and they failed. There won´t be a second chance, because he will purge anyone who doesn’t support him (in and outside the military). Turkey´s path into dictatorship is inevitable now. He might still hold a lot of support right now, but these things always end the same way. Either you take the carrot (if you are lucky and he offers you that option) or you get the stick.
You might argue that dictatorship under Erdogan is better than any alternative. I disagree despite not trusting the military or the opposition.
Religion is the cherry on top of that. By supporting the opposition in Syria, he allowed Islamic fundamentalists to gain a foothold In Turkey. We already see the effects in various terrorist attacks in Turkey. Once ISIS crumbles, thousands of radicalized, combat hardened and well-armed men will enter the country.
The whole thing is like a car-crash in slow motion.
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Nope. I think absolutely anything is possible nowadays. Basically think of the impossible and assume it's going to happen
At the same time, Turkey saw ISIS as a convenient tool to help overthrow the Syrian regime of Bashar al-Assad, particularly as some elements in the Turkish administration have been sympathetic towards the group. This facilitated the movement of ISIS fighters in and out of Syria through Turkey's porous borders.
This pragmatic stance towards ISIS initially offered Erdogan a way to assert himself vis-à-vis Assad, but it also paved the way for ISIS to strengthen its presence and activities in Turkey. Turkey was held hostage by fears that a crackdown on ISIS would result in serious retaliation on Turkish soil.
This laissez-faire stance on ISIS also eventually put Erdogan under dual pressure -- from the U.S. on one side, and Russia on the other.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/30/opinions/istanbul-attack-erdogan/
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It is easy to confuse economic catch up with great leadership. We often hear about the wirtschaftswunder. The economic miracle, which was not a miracle at all. There are of course some criterias which must be achieved such as political stability and decent infrastructure.
If Turkey wants a dictator, let them have one.
africanspur said:
Fair question.
The AK Party is basically the Turkish version of the Muslim Brotherhood - they represent what you can call populist Islamism. The Brotherhood and like-minded groups have never emphasized implementing the shari'ah as a priority of their political programs. They were founded and are typically run by laymen - professionals, administrators, etc. - not Muslim 'ulama. The emphasis of the Brotherhood has always been on seizing control of and consolidating power in the state, in advance of any program to implement the shari'a. In other words they envision a top-down Islamization, but they need to hold the reins of power in the state before anything else. The reason for this is due to their experience of repression at the hands of secular forces (the Turkish military, Nasser's regime in Egypt, the Tunisian regime, etc.) which led them to (wisely IMO) conclude that these societies weren't ready for a full-scale implementation of the shari'a yet, and any attempt to do so would inevitably alienate the most powerful factions in society. This is especially true in countries like Turkey and Tunisia, where secular ideology and institutions have been so firmly entrenched - but even Hamas, almost a decade into its rule of the Gaza Strip, has refused to fully implement the shari'a, seeing their rule as not fully consolidated (and probably waiting for the day they believe they'll capture the rest of Palestine). So the AK Party's Islamist orientation just isn't visible in society the way many might expect (i.e. as you would see in Saudi Arabia and Iran). The Brotherhood and its related groups are playing a much longer, cautious and more subtle game, best expressed, ironically, by this quote from Erdogan's arch-rival Fethullah Gulen:
"The existing system is still in power. Our friends who have positions in legislative and administrative bodies should learn its details and be vigilant all the time so that they can transform it and be more fruitful on behalf of Islam in order to carry out a nationwide restoration. However, they should wait until the conditions become more favorable. In other words, they should not come out too early."
On the other hand, these movements typically express their Islamist orientation through pan-Islamic solidarity in international affairs, which is what has driven Erdogan's popularity among many Muslims across the world, but which also leads him to make stupid statements like "Muslims are incapable of committing genocide". At a time when many Muslims feel on the defensive, it's natural for them to gravitate towards powerful leaders willing to step up on the world stage and defy convention. But it shouldn't blind them to the realities of the nature of these movements' ultimate goals which are, IMO, totalitarian.
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A very good piece, written days ago and that provides context for last night's coup attempt.
Makes last night's coverage from CNN all the more baffling. They repeated the fact that Erdogon was Turkey's 'democratically elected leader' almost every 5 minutes, as though he was a virtue of this institution.
As this article surmises, he is far from that!
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/29/opinions/erdogan-crackdown-ghitis/
Makes last night's coverage from CNN all the more baffling. They repeated the fact that Erdogon was Turkey's 'democratically elected leader' almost every 5 minutes, as though he was a virtue of this institution.
As this article surmises, he is far from that!
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/29/opinions/erdogan-crackdown-ghitis/
....And I just figured out why you tagged me. fecking hell I'm slow this morning.
Edit: so slow that I just realised it was he afternoon.
And where would that be? The only economic benefits came from selling parts of the country via privatisation and influx of foreign capital (the biggest telecommunications company of the country has been sold to Saudis for example, among many other things). Everyone in Turkey is living on credit. The debt of private households has risen from 47 billion Lira in 2002 to 890 billion Lira in 2013. Turkey didn't have an industrial revolution, the country still doesn't produce anything of note except fruit, vegetables and textile + tourism. Turkey will be another Greece sooner or later.
Its also on the doorstep of Europe
Never been good at rising above the detritus.
Poorly executed attempted coup, am sure Erdogun will extract the maximum political revenge for this.
None of my Turkish freinds seem fussed, neither Turk nor Kurd, although they were hardly vocal during the coup.
So military tries an coup and then about 2700 judges get arrested.
Strange. I bet it was Erdogan's play, had some agents in army who lead others to believe they can try and should begin a coup, Erdogan smashes it and now he have a free rule with the opposition and whoever he thinks it was behind the coup.
Strange. I bet it was Erdogan's play, had some agents in army who lead others to believe they can try and should begin a coup, Erdogan smashes it and now he have a free rule with the opposition and whoever he thinks it was behind the coup.
The problem is that millions of Turks, Kurdish and non-Kurdish, don't want a dictator and will suffer from the inevitable backlash.
Do you mean seizing control of the West Bank and ousting Fatah by that?
I couldn't quite make it out, because "capturing the rest of Palestine" is also their rallying cry for the destruction of Israel.
I mean Palestine (as they see it) in its entirety, including pre-67 Israel.