Transgender rights discussion

calodo2003 said:
What's the 'woke narrative these days?'
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That you should just agree that there are 50+ genders that people can currently identify as. That anything supporting the traditional way of life ( ie. Traditional roles of men and women and family and that both sexes have distinct biological and psychological differences) is sexist and bigoted. Look, I'm not saying either view is right or wrong but that's exactly my problem. Why should anyone get to decide what's right or wrong and cancel or insult anyone who doesn't agree with it?

For instance, I believe Men and Women are very different. Of course, I believe there are exceptions on the rule either side, but why is that such a wild thing to say nowadays? I'm not saying that one sex is better or superior than the other.
 
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santeria13 said:
I think it's kind of crazy that people attack and try to cancel anyone with a differing opinion to the 'woke' narrative these days.
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Seems to be a way to attack women mainly.
I haven't noticed priests, ministers, the Pope being cancelled for failing to accept trans-men into their ranks.
Transmen seem to try and lay low.
Is the term cis-man a thing?
 
santeria13 said:
That you should just agree that there are 50+ genders that people can currently identify as. That anything supporting the traditional way of life ( ie. Traditional roles of men and women and family and that both sexes have distinct biological and psychological differences) is sexist and bigoted. Look, I'm not saying either view is right or wrong but that's exactly my problem. Why should anyone get to decide what's right or wrong and cancel or insult anyone who doesn't agree with it?

For instance, I believe Men and Women are very different. Of course, I believe there are exceptions on the rule either side, but why is that such a wild thing to say nowadays? I'm not saying that one sex is better or superior than the other.
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What 50 genders are you talking about?
 
santeria13 said:
That you should just agree that there are 50+ genders that people can currently identify as. That anything supporting the traditional way of life ( ie. Traditional roles of men and women and family and that both sexes have distinct biological and psychological differences) is sexist and bigoted. Look, I'm not saying either view is right or wrong but that's exactly my problem. Why should anyone get to decide what's right or wrong and cancel or insult anyone who doesn't agree with it?

For instance, I believe Men and Women are very different. Of course, I believe there are exceptions on the rule either side, but why is that such a wild thing to say nowadays? I'm not saying that one sex is better or superior than the other.
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Someone cancel this bigot.
 
NotThatSoph said:
And if you don't know anything about that stuff, you get cancelled? Has this actually happened, or are you a cab driver who once talked to Stewart Lee?
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I'm referring more to the current nature of social media tbh. If you challenge the idea that there are 73 genders, you will be met with a truckload of hate and insults rather than an actual debate on the subject. It's just the way the world is now, and thus why many content creators and media personalities can't speak their true mind on a lot of subjects. The ability to debate and have a discussion about things without getting overly emotional and personal is seemingly dwindling.

For example, I saw someone's bio the other day and they identified as She/Him. I found this kind of confusing, so I looked up the definition and it was someone who identified as 'masculine with feminine features'. I don't see why this needs a label or be a specific 'identity' , but that's just me.

I think it's a problem, but again that's just my opinion. Thought it's relevant to the thread because essentially, that's what happened to Rowling when she spoke her mind.
 
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santeria13 said:
I'm referring more to the current nature of social media tbh. If you challenge the idea that there are 73 genders, you will be met with a truckload of hate and insults rather than an actual debate on the subject. It's just the way the world is now, and thus why many content creators and media personalities can't speak their true mind on a lot of subjects. The ability to debate and have a discussion about things without getting overly emotional and personal is seemingly dwindling.

I think it's a problem, but again that's just my opinion. Thought it's relevant to the thread because essentially, that's what happened to Rowling when she spoke her mind.
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Where? When?
 
NotThatSoph said:
Where? When?
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It happens very often on platforms such as twitter. There are also several videos on YouTube of people trying to debate the subject and being met by an angry hate mob who refuse to debate and just insult the person who made the statement. Just type 'There are only 2 genders' onto youtube or twitter and you'll see exactly what I mean. If I show you just one or two examples, you'll tell me it's too small a sample size.

It's why content creators or famous people in general stay as far away as possible from such subjects, unless it's in agreement with the concept.
 
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santeria13 said:
It happens very often on platforms such as twitter. There are also several videos on YouTube of people trying to debate the subject and being met by an angry hate mob who refuse to debate and just insult the person who made the statement. Just type 'There are only 2 genders' onto youtube or twitter and you'll see exactly what I mean. I don't have to do your research for you.

It's why content creators in general stay as far away as possible from such subjects, unless it's in agreement with the concept.
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Other things you can type into Youtube or Twitter, and you'll find loads of people just trying to debate the subject and being met by an angry hate mob who refuse to debate and just insult the person who made the statement:

  • 9/11 was an inside job
  • White Lives Matter
  • Stop the Steal
  • The Earth is flat
  • The globalists are trying to kill you with Covid19
  • Homosexuals are degenerates
  • Jews will not replace us
  • Sandy Hook crisis actors
 
santeria13 said:
It happens very often on platforms such as twitter. There are also several videos on YouTube of people trying to debate the subject and being met by an angry hate mob who refuse to debate and just insult the person who made the statement. Just type 'There are only 2 genders' onto youtube or twitter and you'll see exactly what I mean. I don't have to do your research for you.

It's why content creators in general stay as far away as possible from such subjects, unless it's in agreement with the concept.
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We can change the subject if that's what you want, do you prefer to talk about denying the existence of non-binary people rather than the 50+ genders thing?
 
Weird how a lot of people who claim they're "fine with trans people and non-binary gender but..." are incredibly keen on policing and belittling the language people use to describe their experience of gender.

I've only ever come across people using maybe 5-6 gender identifiers (aside from the binary two) and I've generally understood what people are trying to get across by using those terms. But their validity isn't contingent on me understanding them. I accept that male and female aren't covering all the bases, and beyond that I don't think it's surprising that different people have different ways of putting their experiences into words, especially when we seem to expect them to adopt a simple one or two word label.
 
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NotThatSoph said:
We can change the subject if that's what you want, do you prefer to talk about denying the existence of non-binary people rather than the 50+ genders thing?
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How was that changing the subject? It was literally answering what you were talking about. I don't think non-binary is a gender myself and that's my own opinion. Whether you think it's a gender or not, neither opinion can be backed up by science. Science is relevant to sexes but gender is a socially constructed concept and you're free to believe in how many genders you choose to believe in. That's totally fine and I respect anyone with that opinion. I just don't like when I'm called sexist because I don't agree with it. Sexist would imply I discriminate against biological females, which is simply not true.

I don't deny the 'existence' of non-binary people. I just don't agree that the label they assigned themselves to, exists. That's completely different. I can respect and admire someone who labels themselves as non-binary for other qualities and characteristics they have without agreeing with that particular label. Is this concept so hard to understand?
 
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jeff_goldblum said:
Weird how a lot of people who claim they're "fine with trans people and non-binary gender but..." are incredibly keen on policing and belittling the language people use to describe their experience of gender.

I've only ever come across people using maybe 5-6 gender identifiers (aside from the binary two) and I've generally understood what people are trying to get across by using those terms. But their validity isn't contingent on me understanding them. I accept that male and female aren't covering all the bases, and beyond that I don't think it's surprising that different people have different ways of putting their experiences into words, especially when we seem to expect them to adopt a simple one or two word label.
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I agree that many may make fun of it and talk down on said people but is simply saying I don't agree with said gender labels belittling or policing their language in any way? They are free to label themselves as whatever they want and I am free to disagree. It makes no difference to how I view them as a person, which will be based on many different qualities that I respect in a human being, completely irrespective of their labelled gender.
 
nimic said:
Other things you can type into Youtube or Twitter, and you'll find loads of people just trying to debate the subject and being met by an angry hate mob who refuse to debate and just insult the person who made the statement:

  • 9/11 was an inside job
  • White Lives Matter
  • Stop the Steal
  • The Earth is flat
  • The globalists are trying to kill you with Covid19
  • Homosexuals are degenerates
  • Jews will not replace us
  • Sandy Hook crisis actors
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Now you're just taking extreme conspiracy theories involving the loss of many lives and comparing them to not agreeing with how many genders other people think there are. I don't see your point. Sorry.

I do see what you were trying to do though; in likening the debate on how many different genders to conspiracy theories on perhaps some of the most sensitive events in history where many people lost their lives(save for the flat earth theory). Even then, do you deserve to be insulted for believing in flat earth?

But yeah, It's a common tactic to make the other speaker/poster look crazy for having a particular opinion. I believe the term is called "reductio ad ridiculum" and it's a very lazy form of argument.
 
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santeria13 said:
How was that changing the subject? It was literally answering what you were talking about. :lol: I don't think non-binary is a gender myself and that's my own opinion. Whether you think it's a gender or not, neither opinion can be backed up by science. Science is relevant to sexes but gender is a socially constructed concept and you're free to believe in how many genders you choose to believe in. That's totally fine and I respect anyone with that opinion. I just don't like when I'm called sexist because I don't agree with it. Sexist would imply I discriminate against biological females, which is simply not true.

I don't deny the 'existence' of non-binary people. I just don't agree that the label they assigned themselves to, exists. That's completely different. I can respect and admire someone who labels themselves as non-binary without agreeing with that particular label. Is this concept so hard to understand?
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Of course it's two different subjects. You were saying that people are getting cancelled for not accepting 50+ genders, but what you're saying now is that they're getting cancelled if they're saying that non-binary people aren't non-binary. Those are obviously different things.

As for your evidence of this cancelling, you refer to social media backlash: that people who disagree with the "woke narrative" receive insults and hate shows both this cancelling and that you can't disagree with said narrative. I assume I can use the same methodology as you just did, and that you would be ok with that. Just on the last page, in comment #1 424 we can see a few examples of trans people getting harassed to such an extent that they're driven to suicide or have to flee the country. In a less extreme example, what first came to my mind when thinking about non-binary representation in the media was Star Trek Discovery, so here is the tweet where Blu del Barrio and Ian Alexander were welcomed to the franchise:



As you can see, there are some negative reactions here. ST keeps losing fans, this is queer theory, tokenism, "diversity" more important than script, no one wants to see this, mental illness, queer baiting, et. etc.

Given that just existing as trans will be met with backlash, hate, insults and abuse on social media, does that mean that you cannot agree with the "woke narrative" without getting cancelled?
 
NotThatSoph said:
Of course it's two different subjects. You were saying that people are getting cancelled for not accepting 50+ genders, but what you're saying now is that they're getting cancelled if they're saying that non-binary people aren't non-binary. Those are obviously different things.

As for your evidence of this cancelling, you refer to social media backlash: that people who disagree with the "woke narrative" receive insults and hate shows both this cancelling and that you can't disagree with said narrative. I assume I can use the same methodology as you just did, and that you would be ok with that. Just on the last page, in comment #1 424 we can see a few examples of trans people getting harassed to such an extent that they're driven to suicide or have to flee the country. In a less extreme example, what first came to my mind when thinking about non-binary representation in the media was Star Trek Discovery, so here is the tweet where Blu del Barrio and Ian Alexander were welcomed to the franchise:



As you can see, there are some negative reactions here. ST keeps losing fans, this is queer theory, tokenism, "diversity" more important than script, no one wants to see this, mental illness, queer baiting, et. etc.

Given that just existing as trans will be met with backlash, hate, insults and abuse on social media, does that mean that you cannot agree with the "woke narrative" without getting cancelled?
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Ok, so let's go back a bit because you are confusing yourself. When I said that if you challenge the idea that there aren't 73 genders, you'll be met with insults and backlash, you replied with( your exact words): ' Where? When?' To which I replied that you could search twitter or youtube for many examples of people who get harassed and insulted for having the opinion that there are only 2 genders. Your next reply implied that I changed the subject here but I directly answered your question of 'Where? When?'. So I must ask you again, where did I change the subject?

In regards to your second point, I 100% agree that trans people or people that identify as any gender do not deserve to be insulted, harassed or harmed in any way for what they choose to do. That is completely out of order. And I believe the same exact thing applies if you disagree with current gender constructs. Why would you deserve to be insulted, harassed or de-platformed for said opinion, provided you are not insulting or harassing anyone on the other side of the debate. But yes, all I said is that I think it's almost a certainty that any famous person that makes such a claim that there are 2 genders will suffer a ton of backlash and hate over it and I don't think that's right. Just like I don't think that any film that comes out involving transgender or non-binary characters deserves hate or backlash either.

I think there is a misconception that if you believe there are 2 genders, you are transphobic but most trans people identify as either male or female. As for people who identify as non-binary, I don't believe that is a gender but that isn't invalidating their existence. I judge people on many different characteristics, none of which have to do with which gender they identify as.
 
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santeria13 said:
Now you're just taking extreme conspiracy theories involving the loss of many lives and comparing them to not agreeing with how many genders other people think there are. I don't see your point. Sorry.

I do see what you were trying to do though; in likening the debate on how many different genders to conspiracy theories on perhaps some of the most sensitive events in history where many people lost their lives(save for the flat earth theory). Even then, do you deserve to be insulted for believing in flat earth?

But yeah, It's a common tactic to make the other speaker/poster look crazy for having a particular opinion. I believe the term is called "reductio ad ridiculum" and it's a very lazy form of argument.
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This isn't debate class, you're not getting points for naming fallacies and I'm not trying to 'win'. I'm just pointing out how your phrasing could easily be used for things that you too would consider outside of normal or acceptable speech.

And like it or not, there's a measurable overlap between people who use your kind of language about the trans community, supposed wokeness, cancel culture, etc, and people who think Trump won the election, Brexit is a huge success, Antifa is a terrorist organisation, etc.
 
santeria13 said:
Ok, so let's go back a bit because you are confusing yourself. When I said that if you challenge the idea that there aren't 73 genders, you'll be met with insults and backlash, you replied with( your exact words): ' Where? When?' To which I replied that you could search twitter or youtube for many examples of people who get harassed and insulted for having the opinion that there are only 2 genders. Your next reply implied that I changed the subject here but I directly answered your question of 'Where? When?'. So I must ask you again, where did I change the subject?
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Because saying that there are only 2 genders obviously isn't the same thing as saying that there aren't 73 genders. Lets say that I claim that you cannot say there are less than ten million genders without getting called an idiot, and when you doubt that I point you to an instance where I was called an idiot for saying that there is only one gender. Is saying that there is only one gender the same thing as saying there aren't ten million genders?

santeria13 said:
In regards to your second point, I 100% agree that trans people or people that identify as any gender do not deserve to be insulted, harassed or harmed in any way for what they choose to do. That is completely out of order. And I believe the same exact thing applies if you disagree with current gender constructs. Why would you deserve to be insulted, harassed or de-platformed for said opinion, provided you are not insulting or harassing anyone on the other side of the debate.

I don't believe either side of the debate deserves judgement or hate of any kind as long as they are not resorting to insults or harassment.
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I didn't ask if you agreed that they shouldn't get harassed or insulted, I know that already. I asked if the fact that this happens shows that you can't agree with the "woke narrative" without getting cancelled.
 
nimic said:
This isn't debate class, you're not getting points for naming fallacies and I'm not trying to 'win'. I'm just pointing out how your phrasing could easily be used for things that you too would consider outside of normal or acceptable speech.

And like it or not, there's a measurable overlap between people who use your kind of language about the trans community, supposed wokeness, cancel culture, etc, and people who think Trump won the election, Brexit is a huge success, Antifa is a terrorist organisation, etc.
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I'm aware this isn't debate class and I'm not getting any points. I'm simply replying to other posts of differing opinions, which is literally the definition of a debate. I don't think any side 'wins' here. I think its just an interesting discussion. What's wrong with that?

Also, what kind of 'language' did I use towards the trans community that is offensive? In fact, I didn't mention the trans community until my most recent reply where I explained my view on that too. I personally believe there are 2 genders, and many trans people fall into this category as either male or female. Me not agreeing with the 'non binary' label or the many other genders that exist has nothing to do with my views on trans people. It's a separate topic. Of course, many trans people also identify as non-binary, as do non-trans people.
 
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NotThatSoph said:
Because saying that there are only 2 genders obviously isn't the same thing as saying that there aren't 73 genders. Lets say that I claim that you cannot say there are less than ten million genders without getting called an idiot, and when you doubt that I point you to an instance where I was called an idiot for saying that there is only one gender. Is saying that there is only one gender the same thing as saying there aren't ten million genders?


I didn't ask if you agreed that they shouldn't get harassed or insulted, I know that already. I asked if the fact that this happens shows that you can't agree with the "woke narrative" without getting cancelled.
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Ok I see your point here. It's not exactly the same thing but it's generally the most common argument that's used on the other side of the debate to there being more than two genders, whatever number that may be.

As for the second point, No I don't think the fact that trans people do get harassed means that people who believe there are two genders don't get cancelled. Why would one scenario happening mean that the other can't happen? I believe harassing someone for being trans or non-binary is wrong, as is cancelling someone for their opinions on how many genders there are is also wrong.
 
NotThatSoph said:
I started rereading the books some years ago, and I was very surprised. Some of the best magicians in the world say it's impossible to steal the ***********'s stone because the defense system they set up is so extremely good, and what do they mean? You have to pay some attention to the first year school curriculum, be a somewhat competent broom rider, a mediocre chess player and being able to solve a pretty basic riddle. I know it's a children's book, but until I reread them I didn't know how much of a children's book it actually is.
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Reread. I mean, they’re ok. But with all the books out there to read , I can’t imagine a scenario where reading a Harry Potter book for the second time will ever be the best option.
 
santeria13 said:
That you should just agree that there are 50+ genders that people can currently identify as. That anything supporting the traditional way of life ( ie. Traditional roles of men and women and family and that both sexes have distinct biological and psychological differences) is sexist and bigoted. Look, I'm not saying either view is right or wrong but that's exactly my problem. Why should anyone get to decide what's right or wrong and cancel or insult anyone who doesn't agree with it?

For instance, I believe Men and Women are very different. Of course, I believe there are exceptions on the rule either side, but why is that such a wild thing to say nowadays? I'm not saying that one sex is better or superior than the other.
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do you know anyone in real life who actually thinks this?

I've been on the look-out for about a decade and still haven't found one, apart from on twitter
 
Tarrou said:
do you know anyone in real life who actually thinks this?

I've been on the look-out for about a decade and still haven't found one, apart from on twitter
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Ok I agree that was an exaggeration but then below in other replies I also further explained my view on why I think cancelling anyone who believes there are two genders, is wrong. Again, it's just my opinion and I'm not saying I'm correct or incorrect in my views but I do think it makes for an interesting discussion.
 
santeria13 said:
I agree that many may make fun of it and talk down on said people but is simply saying I don't agree with said gender labels belittling or policing their language in any way? They are free to label themselves as whatever they want and I am free to disagree. It makes no difference to how I view them as a person, which will be based on many different qualities that I respect in a human being, completely irrespective of their labelled gender.
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But if, as I think I saw you say in another post, you accept that gender is a social construct, saying you don't agree with gender identities other than man and woman doesn't make a lot of sense. If you're signed up to gender being a social construct, you should be quite comfortable with the idea that concepts of gender will differ between different cultures and social groupings. We see this even between and within cultures who sign up to binary gender (for example, the social expectations placed upon men and women in one culture, or amongst members of a particular generation within a culture, will differ wildly from the what is expected of them in another culture, or by a different generation within that same culture). Going beyond that, there are various examples from across the world of societies where gender identities other than man and woman existed for a very long time, or where they used to exist before being scrubbed out by (usually religious) people whose world view they didn't fit into.

So with all that in mind, how do you reconcile believing in gender as a social concept, but also only accepting the validity of binary gender? Most people who do the latter (Rowling is a good example), tend to downplay the existence of gender as a concept altogether to avoid this very problem (although in doing so they experience a variety of other pitfalls).
 
santeria13 said:
Ok I see your point here. It's not exactly the same thing but it's generally the most common argument that's used on the other side of the debate to there being more than two genders, whatever number that may be.

As for the second point, No I don't think the fact that trans people do get harassed means that people who believe there are two genders don't get cancelled. Why would one scenario happening mean that the other can't happen? I believe harassing someone for being trans or non-binary is wrong, as is cancelling someone for their opinions on how many genders there are is also wrong.
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That's not what I said.

Your first post in this thread said that you can't disagree with the woke narrative without getting cancelled. Your evidence for this is that people who say that there are only two genders receive insults. Likewise, people who say that non-binary people are real receive insults.

If people receiving insults for saying that there are only two genders show that you can't disagree with the woke narrative without getting cancelled, then surely people receiving insults for saying that there are more than two genders show that you can't agree with the woke narrative without getting cancelled either. Everyone's getting cancelled?
 
jeff_goldblum said:
But if, as I think I saw you say in another post, you accept that gender is a social construct, saying you don't agree with gender identities other than man and woman doesn't make a lot of sense. If you're signed up to gender being a social construct, you should be quite comfortable with the idea that concepts of gender will differ between different cultures and social groupings. We see this even between and within cultures who sign up to binary gender (for example, the social expectations placed upon men and women in one culture, or amongst members of a particular generation within a culture, will differ wildly from the what is expected of them in another culture, or by a different generation within that same culture). Going beyond that, there are various examples from across the world of societies where gender identities other than man and woman existed for a very long time, or where they used to exist before being scrubbed out by (usually religious) people whose world view they didn't fit into.

So with all that in mind, how do you reconcile believing in gender as a social concept, but also only accepting the validity of binary gender? Most people who do the latter (Rowling is a good example), tend to downplay the existence of gender as a concept altogether to avoid this very problem (although in doing so they experience a variety of other pitfalls).
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Well, yeah I think that gender in general is a socially constructed concept, however that allows people to invent and define as many gender identities as they wish. This is why, as you say, the widely accepted concepts of gender identity will differ depending on culture and generation.

At the same time, since it is a socially constructed concept, that allows the freedom to interpret gender identity to the individual. Sure, you could believe in the widely accepted concept of gender identity in your current generation and culture, but at the same you can personally believe there are just two genders, where other people will choose to believe there are more than two, whatever that number may be. Technically, you could also believe in just one gender or even zero genders, such as Rowling, if you so choose to do so. Even the concept of 'binary' genders in the first place is a social construct.

Personally, I believe there are two. That's all. But I also believe that whatever your views on the subject are, you don't deserve to be cancelled, insulted or harassed for the opinion. On the basis that it is a social construct, the individual is free to interpret or understand said construct as they choose to do so.
 
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santeria13 said:
Ok I agree that was an exaggeration but then below in other replies I also further explained my view on why I think cancelling anyone who believes there are two genders, is wrong. Again, it's just my opinion and I'm not saying I'm right or wrong but I do think it makes for an interesting discussion.
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Yeah I don't think too many reasonably minded people would disagree with that opinion. I think you're completely ignorant if you think that, but I don't care if you hold that opinion unless you're voicing it in a way that's disrespectful.
 
NotThatSoph said:
That's not what I said.

Your first post in this thread said that you can't disagree with the woke narrative without getting cancelled. Your evidence for this is that people who say that there are only two genders receive insults. Likewise, people who say that non-binary people are real receive insults.

If people receiving insults for saying that there are only two genders show that you can't disagree with the woke narrative without getting cancelled, then surely people receiving insults for saying that there are more than two genders show that you can't agree with the woke narrative without getting cancelled either. Everyone's getting cancelled?
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Yes, people on both sides are judged and belittled based on their opinion, which is wrong. I made this particular example with gender because there seems to be a common misconception that because you believe there are two genders, you are 'transphobic' and sexist' which is the common label thrown at people who believe so, and it's simply not true.

There is a slight difference in that in one case, someone is being insulted and harassed for their opinion being different to the person they are targeting. While in the other case, they are directly insulting someone for being non-binary or transgender, which isn't a difference of opinion but hating and insulting someone based on how they identify. That is discriminatory and I actually think that's worse.

The reason I brought up the hate on someone over an opinion is because I think it related well to the backlash Rowling got for her particular opinion.
 
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This is so good.

OpIMCbm.png
 
:lol:

When checking the etymology of woman (it's not womb-man sadly) I came across another great one. History, coming from his story. Also not true, but eh, would've been cool.

Woe-man is even better, because you know, bros before hoes and stuff.
 
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