Transfer Muppet Draft 1st Semi Final - MJJ vs Annahnomoss

[Moby]

The aim of this poll is to decide the winner in this fantasy game contested between two sides assembled through the method of drafting. For the purpose of this game, all players would be considered as being at their respective peaks. I invite all posters to go through the formations, tactics and arguments that will follow in the thread and kindly leave their vote. Thanks.

MJJ's Tactics

Tactics-

I am the home side, so first of all the pitch is going to be heavily watered in the middle to make it difficult for Annah to pass the ball at will.

Annah high press and high possession tactics are going to suit me just fine as there will be a wall of bodies in my half making sure he cant find any passing avenues and the high press will allow me to counter attack quickly and at will resulting in one of ones with valdes, a keeper always prone to errors.

I am going to win this game by attacking down the wings, get giggs/ronaldo/henry one on one with their defender and 9/10 they will beat him. The plan here is simple, win the ball back in my half and use fabregas/ddg/rooney passing ability to quickly launch a counter attack while keane goes around disrupting most of annah's attacks.

Messi- Messi is going to be extremely dangerous but he will be up against two of the best defenders the world has seen and a packed half just waiting to win the ball. With my team having home advantage it will be hard for Annah to attack down the middle as well.

Defense-

I have one of the best defenses in the draft. At centre back I have the duo of Nesta and Stam who have played together to great effect unlike silva and puyol. With Cole and Zanetti at fullbacks, two of the best defensive full backs the world has seen.


Midfield-

My midfield is based on the great united midfield but with fabregas instead of scholes and ronaldo instead of keane. From 2008 to 2012 Fabregas was the Premiership's outstanding midfielder, racking up more assists than any other midfielder in Europe. Keane is going to disrupt the opposition play and get into the box when possible while fabregas will drop deep at times and use his awesome range to initiate counter attacks.

When Bayern destroyed barca, they had martinez shackling iniesta while fabregas and rooney will press deep in my half. I am happy to let Annah have all the possession he wants in his half but he will face a wall of bodies in my half. Just like the bayern game, I can see xavi dropping deeper and deeper as all the passing avenues will be cut off.

Rooney is going to drop deep to deal with busquets at time and is going to play a similar disruptive role to keane.
Attack-

My team is perfectly set to exploit Annah's highline and counter attack at will. In henry, giggs and ronaldo I have three of the fastest footballers to ever play the game with all of them being exceptional dribblers. With Annah's high defense line, I can play deep and be sure of the fact that once one of the trio gets the ball they will carry it far and will be deadly.

Behind them I have rooney who is perfect in a counter attacking side and has great understanding with giggs and ronaldo.

TEAM MJJ

TEAM ANNAHNOMOSS

Annahnomoss' Tactics

After the 3-1 loss to Barcelona in the 2011 Champions league final, Manchester United manager Sir Alex Ferguson acknowledged that the Barcelona side was the best team he had ever faced.[33] His sentiments were echoed by United captainNemanja Vidić and defender Rio Ferdinand.[34]

Manager: Josep Guardiola
Formation: 4-3-3
Tactic: Tiki-taka
Defense: The six second rule

The six second rule was created to prevent counters before they happened. This team has the experience in the style and the stamina through-out the side to be capable of pressing relentlessly like Barcelona in their absolute defensive peak. All ten outfield players are defensively brilliant in their role and will defending together as a unit.

Neither of my opponents centre-backs are ball-playing ones which is absolutely crucial to handle the high press without resorting to long-balls with no address.

Players
Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets are all reunited and in this drafts they are all considered to be at their absolute peak.

One of the best teams in history has been improved by bringing in two very hard-working wingers who have proved themselves in the style being played.

David Silva has played with the Barcelona trio and proven himself as their first choice wide option ahead of Pedro. For Spain he is known for his ability to face the best of wingers, while making sure his side remains defensively solid. He has clean sheet playing wingers like Ronaldo and Ribery playing with much lesser defenders than here.

In the offense he is currently known as one of the best players in tight spaces and makes sure his team keeps ticking. He has great dribbling which he mainly uses to force the defenders to take a step up - when they do he often releases a through-ball behind the defense.

Thomas Müller, the Raumdeuter(Space investigator), is one of the key-components to this team. The one ability that has always decided Barcelona's success in games is how well they control and free up space for Messi to use - or use the space from Messi pulling defenders out of position.
"His special power is to find space, space invisible to the non-Raumdeuter, and spread into it like a plume of smoke, or a form of insidious footballing dry rot. This is what he produced against Juventus, a frictionless occupation by stealth, always moving – if not moving that much – in search of the single most vital commodity in elite modern football: space, the final and, in fact, pretty much only, frontier."

He, like everybody in this pitch except Cannavaro, has extensive training in the high press/high possession style - being managed by Guardiola for Bayern. He is partnered up with his team-mate, and defensively the best full-back to ever play in this system - Phillip Lahm.

On the left side in the defense we have the best left back to play in the tiki-taka, Eric Abidal whos unfortunate fate has him slightly underrated by some. His main abilities lies in the defense where he uses his outstanding strength and pace to handle top wingers.

In the central defense I have Thiago Silva who has experience in a high-pressure defense for Brazil and a high possession style in PSG. Extremely fast for a centre back and great with the ball at his feet.

He is partnered with one of the better centre backs in history, Cannavaro, the less ball playing centre back of the two. Maybe even more impressive acceleration, intelligence and tackling than Thiago and together they are a very consistent pairing.

 

[Moby]

@MJJ @Annahnomoss

 

[Annahnomoss]

Good luck mate, hopefully the Bayern game doesn't kill me.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I feel like my brain is melting looking at these two teams. One the one hand, Barca's tiki-taka problem has always been these incredibly fast counter attacking sides(i.e the game last night, Bayern-Barca last year, every RM win over Barca in recent years), and MJJ's team is incredibly capable of that because of Fergie's lethal counter attacking. Basically Ronaldo-Rooney-Henry is a massive upgrade to Ronaldo-Rooney-Tevez, who had some incredible counter attacks.

On the other hand, Annah's defense is better than any tiki taka team I've seen, Cannavaro is superb, and T.Silva is better than Puyol at his prime imo, and Lahm is definitely not a problem defensively. So maybe he won't be susceptible on defense. But than again, MJJ's defense is pretty amazing, De Gea wouldn't be used against in aerial balls, and against these long shots he'll do fine, and Nesta-Stam. Wow, with Javier and Cashley..

Too much to think about.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Cheers mate. I do think that my opponent playing a two man midfield with Fabregas is going to lead to chances, especially with Rooney proving against Barcelona in the second striker role that he won't provide the necessary help to the midfield.

Fabregas is defensively not enough to provide stability for MJJ in front of his own box. Any time Messi, Silva or Iniesta gets a ball in that area Stam or Nesta will have to take a step up freeing up space for a through-ball behind them. I have a hard time seeing Fabregas handling a peak Iniesta, Xavi, Silva and Messi who are all among the best in the world at exploiting the slightest of space.

The most obvious route for goal bar that is of course the high press where my opponent will have a very difficult time. He doesn't have the ball-playing centre-backs to have them set up counters or handle the high press well. Any time the high press is successful I will be attacking against an unorganized defense as well. His main options to handle the press is getting the ball to Fabregas(possibly Zanetti), which is a very limited amount of options.

 

[sullydnl]

Wow, those teams are ridiculous. Hard to even imagine how this game would play out...

 

[Annahnomoss]

Wow, those teams are ridiculous. Hard to even imagine how this game would play out...

Happy you like the teams mate!

 

[RoadTrip]

MJJ's team is absolutely brilliant. Nesta and Stam are the PERFECT combination against Tika Taka.

That, and he has the ultimate team for a deadly counter. My only concern is Fabregas - Keane and Scholes worked in a two man midfield when Scholes was full of energy rather than the aged Scholes, who was more of a deep playmaker which is the mould of Fabregas. Think upgrading him should you go through is vital.

But, as Real showed, if you defend and counter against Tika Taka, you can be deadly. Giggs works hard and can get up and down, Ronaldo does now contribute a little more, Keane is obviously Keane. Fabregas may not be amazing at defending and winning the ball back but should have enough to be able to sit deep.

Overall for MJJ here, but Fabregas made it close.

 

[RoadTrip]

These are just awesome teams though, might I just add!!!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Half decent sides...

The obvious point to make has already been covered. The question is whether Annah's defense is strong enough to withstand the inevitable counter attacks here. MJJ's setup is pretty much tiki-taka kryptonite - and it's kind of hard to see past this.

Last night's match won't help Annah either, I'm afraid!

 

[sullydnl]

Annah's team is tiki taka at its best though, yesterday's version suffered from a distinct lack of Messi, Iniesta and Xavi.

Beyond that, his back four is probably stronger than any tiki taka team has ever had in real life, no?

 

[MJJ]

Look at this video..I will have no problem in getting the ball to my attackers on the counter. My team is going to sit deep in my half with keane just destroying everyone and rooney sitting on busquets making it hard for him to start attacks.

The middle is going to be heavily clogged and all I need to attack is a quick ball down the wings through fabregas/DDG and even rooney.

My team is also more physical man to man and will bully Annah's team into submission. Pace, Power and Skill. Unbeatable combination.

 

[MJJ]

@Annahnomoss Do you want to vote for the teams?

 

[Annahnomoss]

Half decent sides...

The obvious point to make has already been covered. The question is whether Annah's defense is strong enough to withstand the inevitable counter attacks here. MJJ's setup is pretty much tiki-taka kryptonite - and it's kind of hard to see past this.

Last night's match won't help Annah either, I'm afraid!

There was no real kryptonite to the peak tiki-taka which worked more often than not, that is why Barcelone are rated so highly in history. To play a completely solid defense you need players with vast experience together who knows each other inside out. My opponent has a mash-up of players where most never played together and Guardiola's Bayern knows how long it takes to get a team performing at their best.

They have spent over a season together and still it hasn't clicked perfectly yet, a defensive version with the same fundamental cracks is what MJJ has.

My team is a better version of Barcelona at their peak under Guardiola, MJJ's side is a slight upgrade on United '99, lacking Scholes but otherwise better. United of '99 never proved to be defensively solid, they conceded two times more goals than our 08 side in the league.

If Scholes and Keane couldn't provide defensive stability, then I doubt Fabregas is an improvement who never played with Keane and who is substantially worse in quality as well.

He has also removed Beckham who was defensively brilliant for Cristiano, making it even more offensively oriented than a '99 side which was all about gung-ho outscoring your opponents.

It is far from the optimal set up to play defensively and rely on defensive stability, which didn't exist for the 99 side.

 

[Annahnomoss]

@Annahnomoss Do you want to vote for the teams?

Indeed lets do so! Voting now.

 

[MJJ]

There was no real kryptonite to the peak tiki-taka which worked more often than not, that is why Barcelone are rated so highly in history. To play a completely solid defense you need players with vast experience together who knows each other inside out. My opponent has a mash-up of players where most never played together and Guardiola's Bayern knows how long it takes to get a team performing at their best.

They have spent over a season together and still it hasn't clicked perfectly yet, a defensive version with the same fundamental cracks is what MJJ has.

Sorry? Nest and Stam did play together. They both played with Cafu and Maldini as fullbacks so I dont think it will take a lot to adjust to Cole and Zanetti.

If we are talking about defensive cohesion has anyone of your defenders played together at any point in their career?

Also, did you forget chelsea against barca? Barca at their peak never really met a side setup to exploit their weaknesses until bayern but chelsea were the closet to a pure counter attacking side. My team is an upgrade on that one easily.

 

[MJJ]

Indeed lets do so! Voting now.

Thanks have done so.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Sorry? Nest and Stam did play together. They both played with Cafu and Maldini as wingers so I dont think it will take a lot to adjust to Cole and Zanetti.

If we are talking about defensive cohesion has anyone of your defenders played together at any point in their career?

Also, did you forget chelsea against barca? Barca at their peak never really met a side setup to exploit their weaknesses until bayern but chelsea were the closet to a pure counter attacking side. My team is an upgrade on that one easily.

Taking one game means very little considering they played hundreds. If you look at those 100's of matches against all varieties of tactics being used against them, you see that there is no kryptonite. A defensive and counter-attacking strategy is necessary, but it is far from a kryptonite - if it was Barcelona would never have won as they'd be playing their kryptonite every single game.

Barcelona won more often than not against counter-attacking teams, in fact they more often than not played against counter-attacking teams as they dominated possession so much.

 

[MJJ]

Taking one game means very little considering they played hundreds. If you look at those 100's of matches against all varieties of tactics being used against them, you see that there is no kryptonite. A defensive and counter-attacking strategy is necessary, but it is far from a kryptonite - if it was Barcelona would never have won as they'd be playing their kryptonite every single game.

Barcelona won more often than not against counter-attacking teams, in fact they more often than not played against counter-attacking teams as they dominated possession so much.

1) Most of the games they did play were in la liga where even the bottom sides try to play possession football.
2) As chelsea, inter and real madrid have shown it is easy to exploit tiki-taka weaknesses at its peak. So its not a one off match and bayern obviously improved on the concept.

You are playing a high line, all I need to do is bypass the midfield with a long pass. In a foot race, I will back ronaldo/henry/giggs/rooney everytime over your defenders who as you kindly pointed out have never really played together.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

There was no real kryptonite to the peak tiki-taka which worked more often than not, that is why Barcelone are rated so highly in history. To play a completely solid defense you need players with vast experience together who knows each other inside out. My opponent has a mash-up of players where most never played together and Guardiola's Bayern knows how long it takes to get a team performing at their best.

They have spent over a season together and still it hasn't clicked perfectly yet, a defensive version with the same fundamental cracks is what MJJ has.

My team is a better version of Barcelona at their peak under Guardiola, MJJ's side is a slight upgrade on United '99, lacking Scholes but otherwise better. United of '99 never proved to be defensively solid, they conceded two times more goals than our 08 side in the league.

If Scholes and Keane couldn't provide defensive stability, then I doubt Fabregas is an improvement who never played with Keane and who is substantially worse in quality as well.

Keane, Giggs, Ronaldo and Rooney...that would be four out of six who presumably should have no trouble getting a bit of chemistry going.

Your team is a clear upgrade on Pep's best Barca side in terms of the defense. No question about that. The front trio? Not convinced about that. For me his team was even better before Messi was moved into the false nine role. Subjective opinion, though. There's no doubt your team as a whole is an upgrade because of the dramatically stronger defense.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Keane, Giggs, Ronaldo and Rooney...that would be four out of six who presumably should have no trouble getting a bit of chemistry going.

Your team is a clear upgrade on Pep's best Barca side in terms of the defense. No question about that. The front trio? Not convinced about that. For me his team was even better before Messi was moved into the false nine role. Subjective opinion, though. There's no doubt your team as a whole is an upgrade because of the dramatically stronger defense.

Fair enough! I also prefer Messi when he was a RW, mainly entertainment wise, but the only way to use that formation is playing Eto'o as a striker and then Henry on the other side. Eto'o was shipped away by Guardiola for not suiting the style, so that is the only reason I went this route - if there were other proven strikers above the level of Villa I would probably have done it.

But then again most consider Messi to be optimal in the false-9 role, so it would probably just improve my side in yours and my eyes.

Also the four players you mention will certainly have chemistry going, but it also leaves 6 who doesn't. Iniesta and Xavi would never perform as well together if they were bought in and randomly placed together in the team. Their years of training together is what made them create that partnership, something Scholes and Keane also had.

 

[MJJ]

Also..dont lahm/muller normally play the game at a higher tempo? Dunno how the slow pace that annah plays is going to suit them.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Also..dont lahm/muller normally play the game at a higher tempo? Dunno how the slow pace that annah plays is going to suit them.

Lahm and Muller has played together for a long time and are brilliant together. They are currently playing for Guardiola in a very similar style and in the Barcelona set up they are even more suited where the central midfield is of higher importance than wing-play. Muller needs to stretch the play, find space to make runs in to, and force the CB's to mark him by moving in to their zones - all this opens up space for Messi to receive passes at his feet. Especially with Fabregas just in front there is no way he is defensively great enough to handle Messi sneaking in behind as well as Muller suddenly making a step inside. One of them will get a pass very often and then play the other or go for a goal attempt themselves.

This is Mullers natural game and what he is known for doing, constantly moving, always with intent.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Fair enough! I also prefer Messi when he was a RW, mainly entertainment wise, but the only way to use that formation is playing Eto'o as a striker and then Henry on the other side. Eto'o was shipped away by Guardiola for not suiting the style, so that is the only reason I went this route - if there were other proven strikers above the level of Villa I would probably have done it.

But then again most consider Messi to be optimal in the false-9 role, so it would probably just improve my side in yours and my eyes.

Also the four players you mention will certainly have chemistry going, but it also leaves 6 who doesn't. Iniesta and Xavi would never perform as well together if they were bought in and randomly placed together in the team. Their years of training together is what made them create that partnership, something Scholes and Keane also had.

This is true. But...if we're to follow that logic you could conceivably claim that it would in fact be better to sport Puyol and Pique back there - or even Pique and Mascherano. Proven combinations over individual quality. And that just doesn't work as an argument in what is, essentially, a fantasy setting - does it? If we assume this team is set up by Pep - do we even trust him to get the best out of a more "proper" defense?

In short, I think you have a point - and there is no doubt that the proven trio of Biscuits, Xavi and Iniesta is a great asset here - but you can't put too much emphasis on this either. Who would you sport up front in a classic, Fergie style 4-4-2: Pele and Ronaldo? Or Yorke and Cole? The former is completely unproven as a combination...and there you have it...a reductio ad absurdum, as they call it!

 

[MJJ]

Lahm and Muller has played together for a long time and are brilliant together. They are currently playing for Guardiola in a very similar style and in the Barcelona set up they are even more suited where the central midfield is of higher importance than wing-play. Muller needs to stretch the play, find space to make runs in to, and force the CB's to mark him by moving in to their zones - all this opens up space for Messi to receive passes at his feet. Especially with Fabregas just in front there is no way he is defensively great enough to handle Messi sneaking in behind as well as Muller suddenly making a step inside. One of them will get a pass very often and then play the other or go for a goal attempt themselves.

This is Mullers natural game and what he is known for doing, constantly moving, always with intent.

There wont be any space, all of my team will put in an effort while defending. The midfield is going to be heavily clogged. I have keane and fabregas sitting deep. henry and rooney pressurizing your CBs and busquests. This is going to be a replica of the bayern/barca match where barca were toothless.

Also, I might be wrong but hasnt guardiola been dropping muller to the bench? Am sure I read balu complaining about it. And lahm has also played in midfield instead of fullback and the whole team performance has suffered from playing at a slower tempo.

 

[RoadTrip]

@Annahnomoss

I'm such a massive loser, but I find the fact that you're obviously OCD about player names hilarious so that you had to include Xavi H., and not just Xavi

 

[harms]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think that as much Annah defense is better individually than that Barca's back four, it's worse suited to the tiki-taka system. I know it sound controversial, but hear me out - at their best Guardiola's team played with one defensive-minded fullback and one attacking-minded - it would be Abidal and Lahm in this formation.

Alves was a keystone to the tiki-taka, he provided width and pace to this team with his endless runs and assists to Messi, he is second only to Roberto Carlos in that "owning the wing" role - and as much Lahm is superior to Alves as a player, he lacks the main attribute here - pace. He wouldn't be able to compete with prime Giggs and Henry on his flank and provide width in attack at the same time. You can say that Guardiola plays with him in Bayern, but Bayern has Alaba as the stretching one and Lahm (when not a midfielder) is a fullback that mostly is helping to keep the ball. He also have a ridiculously fast Robben on his flank who is helping him to deal with the threats. As much as I like Muller, he doesn't have the pace to make up for Lahm.

Navas and Pedro were crucial for Spain/Barcelona too, even they were inferior players to the many others. Tiki-taka needs one or two players that are stretching the opposition defense with their runs - without them it's just a bus in disguise. And you literally have one in Messi who is up against Nesta (I do remember Messi being in Nesta's pocket even when he can barely run, though you can say that was just a bad match for him and I wouldn't argue).

Would like an answer - I'm new here and I don't know if I'm doing it right.

P.S. "fabregas instead of scholes and ronaldo instead of keane" - it's probably Beckham, not Keane in MJJ's description, otherwise I'm lost.

 

[Annahnomoss]

@Annahnomoss

I'm such a massive loser, but I find the fact that you're obviously OCD about player names hilarious so that you had to include Xavi H., and not just Xavi

Did it with Ronaldo as he previously got confused for being Cristiano Ronaldo. So looked even dumber having just one, so I changed all. Then I swapped him and couldn't be arsed changing all names back instead of just adding L in front of Messi.

 

[MJJ]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think that as much Annah defense is better individually than that Barca's back four, it's worse suited to the tiki-taka system. I know it sound controversial, but hear me out - at their best Guardiola's team played with one defensive-minded fullback and one attacking-minded - it would be Abidal and Lahm in this formation.

Alves was a keystone to the tiki-taka, he provided width and pace to this team with his endless runs and assists to Messi, he is second only to Roberto Carlos in that "owning the wing" role - and as much Lahm is superior to Alves as a player, he lacks the main attribute here - pace. He wouldn't be able to compete with prime Giggs and Henry on his flank and provide width in attack at the same time. You can say that Guardiola plays with him in Bayern, but Bayern has Alaba as the stretching one and Lahm (when not a midfielder) is a fullback that mostly is helping to keep the ball. He also have a ridiculously fast Robben on his flank who is helping him to deal with the threats. As much as I like Muller, he doesn't have the pace to make up for Lahm.

Navas and Pedro were crucial for Spain/Barcelona too, even they were inferior players to the many others. Tiki-taka needs one or two players that are stretching the opposition defense with their runs - without them it's just a bus in disguise. And you literally have one in Messi who is up against Nesta (I do remember Messi being in Nesta's pocket even when he can barely run, though you can say that was just a bad match for him and I wouldn't argue).

Would like an answer - I'm new here and I don't know if I'm doing it right.

P.S. "fabregas instead of scholes and ronaldo instead of keane" - it's probably Beckham, not Keane in MJJ's description, otherwise I'm lost.

You are right.

 

[Annahnomoss]

This is true. But...if we're to follow that logic you could conceivably claim that it would in fact be better to sport Puyol and Pique back there - or even Pique and Mascherano. Proven combinations over individual quality. And that just doesn't work as an argument in what is, essentially, a fantasy setting - does it? If we assume this team is set up by Pep - do we even trust him to get the best out of a more "proper" defense?

In short, I think you have a point - and there is no doubt that the proven trio of Biscuits, Xavi and Iniesta is a great asset here - but you can't put too much emphasis on this either. Who would you sport up front in a classic, Fergie style 4-4-2: Pele and Ronaldo? Or Yorke and Cole? The former is completely unproven as a combination...and there you have it...a reductio ad absurdum, as they call it!

Of course there is always a certain level where individual quality simply beats proven partnerships. But Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets are not just proven as a partnership, but are individually top quality midfielders better than Fabregas and nearer to Keane in level. This is why the connections then become important, as a decider between even individual skill.

Of course Pele is always better than Yorke, but if it is Pele or Di Stefano for Di Stefano's Real Madrid - then I would rather have Di Stefano of course.

 

[harms]

And great opening, @MJJ

Very interesting game, "what if Fletcher Keane was there"

 

[Annahnomoss]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think that as much Annah defense is better individually than that Barca's back four, it's worse suited to the tiki-taka system. I know it sound controversial, but hear me out - at their best Guardiola's team played with one defensive-minded fullback and one attacking-minded - it would be Abidal and Lahm in this formation.

Alves was a keystone to the tiki-taka, he provided width and pace to this team with his endless runs and assists to Messi, he is second only to Roberto Carlos in that "owning the wing" role - and as much Lahm is superior to Alves as a player, he lacks the main attribute here - pace. He wouldn't be able to compete with prime Giggs and Henry on his flank and provide width in attack at the same time. You can say that Guardiola plays with him in Bayern, but Bayern has Alaba as the stretching one and Lahm (when not a midfielder) is a fullback that mostly is helping to keep the ball. He also have a ridiculously fast Robben on his flank who is helping him to deal with the threats. As much as I like Muller, he doesn't have the pace to make up for Lahm.

Navas and Pedro were crucial for Spain/Barcelona too, even they were inferior players to the many others. Tiki-taka needs one or two players that are stretching the opposition defense with their runs - without them it's just a bus in disguise. And you literally have one in Messi who is up against Nesta (I do remember Messi being in Nesta's pocket even when he can barely run, though you can say that was just a bad match for him and I wouldn't argue).

Would like an answer - I'm new here and I don't know if I'm doing it right.

P.S. "fabregas instead of scholes and ronaldo instead of keane" - it's probably Beckham, not Keane in MJJ's description, otherwise I'm lost.

Lahm-Muller and Abidal-Silva are defensively an upgrade, a rather big one. Their pressing game and defensive solidity is certainly a step up from Alaba or Alves. In the offense it is very true that my team is going to have less help on the right flank than if I had Dani Alves, however that is made up for by having better individual players.

Silva-Muller is a better wide pairing than Pedro-Villa which is why Pedro has been benched for Silva in the Spanish NT most often. Muller and Lahm was one of the greatest reason for Bayern Munichs success last season, they were outstanding on that right side together. They form a great partnership and complement each other enough to penetrate defenses in the offense and remaining defensively brilliant.

 

[RoadTrip]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think that as much Annah defense is better individually than that Barca's back four, it's worse suited to the tiki-taka system. I know it sound controversial, but hear me out - at their best Guardiola's team played with one defensive-minded fullback and one attacking-minded - it would be Abidal and Lahm in this formation.

Alves was a keystone to the tiki-taka, he provided width and pace to this team with his endless runs and assists to Messi, he is second only to Roberto Carlos in that "owning the wing" role - and as much Lahm is superior to Alves as a player, he lacks the main attribute here - pace. He wouldn't be able to compete with prime Giggs and Henry on his flank and provide width in attack at the same time. You can say that Guardiola plays with him in Bayern, but Bayern has Alaba as the stretching one and Lahm (when not a midfielder) is a fullback that mostly is helping to keep the ball. He also have a ridiculously fast Robben on his flank who is helping him to deal with the threats. As much as I like Muller, he doesn't have the pace to make up for Lahm.

Navas and Pedro were crucial for Spain/Barcelona too, even they were inferior players to the many others. Tiki-taka needs one or two players that are stretching the opposition defense with their runs - without them it's just a bus in disguise. And you literally have one in Messi who is up against Nesta (I do remember Messi being in Nesta's pocket even when he can barely run, though you can say that was just a bad match for him and I wouldn't argue).

Would like an answer - I'm new here and I don't know if I'm doing it right.

P.S. "fabregas instead of scholes and ronaldo instead of keane" - it's probably Beckham, not Keane in MJJ's description, otherwise I'm lost.

Good analysis, and I agree with your point that tika taka needs players to stretch the game - the one issue I noted with Annah's team.

However couple of points:

Re: Lahm, I think it's unfair to say he lacked pace. He's not lightning like Alves but he was not slow especially when he was younger. He's a better defender, which lets not forget is also important in t-t football. And when he goes forward, I think he's at least on Alves' level when it comes to technical ability on the ball. Lahm is a wonderful attacking fullback - different to Alves, yes. But I wouldn't say Lahm's attributes particularly don't suit a t-t style.

Re: Nesta, I'm sure Messi was much younger when he played Nesta. Messi on peak form would be a handful for any defender. It's one of those things that, Messi/Ronaldo etc are players who overall in the context of a whole match, are likely to get some changes whoever they are up against.

Saying that, Stam and Nesta are a brilliant combination IMO, perfectly suited to each other, and the best you could put up against t-t football.

Hence I've gone for MJJ.

 

[Annahnomoss]

There wont be any space, all of my team will put in an effort while defending. The midfield is going to be heavily clogged. I have keane and fabregas sitting deep. henry and rooney pressurizing your CBs and busquests. This is going to be a replica of the bayern/barca match where barca were toothless.

Also, I might be wrong but hasnt guardiola been dropping muller to the bench? Am sure I read balu complaining about it. And lahm has also played in midfield instead of fullback and the whole team performance has suffered from playing at a slower tempo.

Indeed he has and like you also mentioned the Bayern fans aren't happy about it. Bayern have a very different role for the wingers, they are supposed to be the super-stars in Bayern - their Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Messi. With the Barcelona core centrally Muller won't have to receive the ball out wide and dribble past two players - he will be free to make runs to free up space for Messi or use the space from Messi dropping deep to get behind the defense line for through-balls.

 

[RoadTrip]

Of course there is always a certain level where individual quality simply beats proven partnerships. But Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets are not just proven as a partnership, but are individually top quality midfielders better than Fabregas and nearer to Keane in level. This is why the connections then become important, as a decider between even individual skill.

Of course Pele is always better than Yorke, but if it is Pele or Di Stefano for Di Stefano's Real Madrid - then I would rather have Di Stefano of course.

I think it's without doubt you win the midfield battle. But, MJJ doesn't need to win the midfield battle to win. Your issue is not that, but rather I think your team lacks some penetration, and on the counter MJJ has a team which has an absolutely beastful counter attacking line up.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Good analysis, and I agree with your point that tika taka needs players to stretch the game - the one issue I noted with Annah's team.

This isn't the case though. When Henry and Messi were the wide options they basically had two very narrow players and many consider it to be among the best they performed with plenty of movement from the three and more involved wide men. Villa also played this role, but was even more narrow, almost a left striker.

 

[harms]

Lahm-Muller and Abidal-Silva are defensively an upgrade, a rather big one. Their pressing game and defensive solidity is certainly a step up from Alaba or Alves. In the offense it is very true that my team is going to have less help on the right flank than if I had Dani Alves, however that is made up for by having better individual players.

Silva-Muller is a better wide pairing than Pedro-Villa which is why Pedro has been benched for Silva in the Spanish NT most often. Muller and Lahm was one of the greatest reason for Bayern Munichs success last season, they were outstanding on that right side together. They form a great partnership and complement each other enough to penetrate defenses in the offense and remaining defensively brilliant.

I wasn't arguing that defensively it's a great upgrade on Barca's one, of course it is.

But then you are talking about Silva in Spain NT - that's exactly my point here. Spain is one of the most defensive-minded sides in the history of WC and they struggled to score on many occasions - mainly because of the likes of Silva being preferred to the likes of Pedro - you can't win without a little bit of directness.

You said that it was a Barcelona-based team - then you do need to attack, not to keep the ball until the penalties - otherwise you should change your tactics a bit, I think. Barcelona had a positive approach when on the ball, Spain - not so much. I know, two sides of the same coin, but I think this is important.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think it's without doubt you win the midfield battle. But, MJJ doesn't need to win the midfield battle to win. Your issue is not that, but rather I think your team lacks some penetration, and on the counter MJJ has a team which has an absolutely beastful counter attacking line up.

I wasn't arguing that defensively it's a great upgrade on Barca's one, of course it is.

But then you are talking about Silva in Spain NT - that's exactly my point here. Spain is one of the most defensive-minded sides in the history of WC and they struggled to score on many occasions - mainly because of the likes of Silva being preferred to the likes of Pedro - you can't win without a little bit of directness.

You said that it was a Barcelona-based team - then you do need to attack, not to keep the ball until the penalties - otherwise you should change your tactics a bit, I think. Barcelona had a positive approach when on the ball, Spain - not so much. I know, two sides of the same coin, but I think this is important.

Spain lacked Messi and had no replacement for him. They also never played Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets in the midfield but instead Iniesta and Silva out wide and a double pivot.

Messi at his peak will add plenty of directness, so does Muller who is as direct as you can be. He looks for space and makes threatening runs constantly, an upgrade on Pedro in quality and a similar style.

Both Abidal and Lahm are capable going forward, making overlaps and in Lahm's case even acting a playmaker to find Messi/Muller through on goal.

Considering the quality of the opponents forwards I would have Abidal and Lahm over Alves. Alves is brilliant at making a dominant team even more dominant, he isn't the optimal choice when facing Giggs. I prefer Lahm for that role.

 

[harms]

Spain lacked Messi and had no replacement for him. They also never played Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets in the midfield but instead Iniesta and Silva out wide and a double pivot.

Messi at his peak will add plenty of directness, so does Muller who is as direct as you can be. He looks for space and makes threatening runs constantly, an upgrade on Pedro in quality and a similar style.

Ok. I will wait for now, maybe something will come up - although it's unbelievable hard not to vote for MJJ as I'm sick of United losing to Barca

 

[Annahnomoss]

Ok. I will wait for now, maybe something will come up - although it's unbelievable hard not to vote for MJJ as I'm sick of United losing to Barca

I know the feeling. Hopefully the current Bayern discussion and the hate for tiki-taka and him playing our club favorites doesn't impact the voting too much in terms of bias.