Top 4 Race 19/20 | duffer: "We [Chelsea] are getting 3rd. Despite what the lunatics in here think, Man United are not all that."

[roseguy64]

I've been saying this for weeks. The signs have been there.

What signs have been there for weeks? The weeks we won every game bar the Spurs opening game until last week?

 

[charlenefan]

tbh it's largely irrelevant what we do against West Ham, just beat Leicester on the final day. Playing for a draw is just asking for trouble

 

[roseguy64]

Man if this game today comes and haunts us I'll be so mad. Such a stupid stupid decision from Ole. Our tiredness was there for everyone to see in the last games

It's because the tiredness was there why we rotated today though

 

[Yagami]

What signs have been there for weeks? The weeks we won every game bar the Spurs opening game until last week?

I've already said in my reply to @cyberman . It's the performances more so than the results.

 

[roseguy64]

I've already said in my reply to @cyberman . It's the performances more so than the results.

The only so-so performances have been since the last week. The other games we were barely troubled and looked like we could score whenever. Today at Chelsea was the only match since the restart where we looked bereft of ideas.

 

[Yagami]

The only so-so performances have been since the last week. The other games we were barely troubled and looked like we could score whenever. Today at Chelsea was the only match since the restart where we looked bereft of ideas.

There has been a noticeable, steady decline, though.

We started off against Spurs but everyone was getting back into it after such a long break so we can look past that performance.

We were then brilliant against Sheffield, brilliant against Brighton, and brilliant going forwards against Bournemouth but the cracks started appearing at the back.

Then we were iffy against Villa. They were the better team before we got lucky with a pen and then that just killed their confidence. We were then completely outplayed by Southampton, and put in a poor performance against Palace. Then nothing needs to be said about tonight.

 

[always_hoping]

hypothetically speaking United lose to Leicester by a 1 goal margin, Man United would need to beat West Ham by 3 or more goals to make sure they don't finish the season behind Leicester.

 

[AshRK]

If we still cannot get top 4 then I worry for the future of this club. Europa or not, Top 4 is a must.

 

[bond19821982]

There has been a noticeable, steady decline, though.

We started off against Spurs but everyone was getting back into it after such a long break so we can look past that performance.

We were then brilliant against Sheffield, brilliant against Brighton, and brilliant going forwards against Bournemouth but the cracks started appearing at the back.

Then we were iffy against Villa. They were the better team before we got lucky with a pen and then that just killed their confidence. We were then completely outplayed by Southampton, and put in a poor performance against Palace. Then nothing needs to be said about tonight.

We will know precisely on Wed.

 

[Offside]

There has been a noticeable, steady decline, though.

We started off against Spurs but everyone was getting back into it after such a long break so we can look past that performance.

We were then brilliant against Sheffield, brilliant against Brighton, and brilliant going forwards against Bournemouth but the cracks started appearing at the back.

Then we were iffy against Villa. They were the better team before we got lucky with a pen and then that just killed their confidence. We were then completely outplayed by Southampton, and put in a poor performance against Palace. Then nothing needs to be said about tonight.

It’s worrying given the exact same thing happened last season but on a larger scale. Brilliant in Ole’s early games against Cardiff, Bournemouth etc. then we were still winning games but being very lucky like Leicester away, PSG away and performances were dropping week by week before we entered into the worst run of form I’ve ever seen.

We’ve gotta just come up with 2 performances now and then we can end where we want to be.

 

[Offside]

tbh it's largely irrelevant what we do against West Ham, just beat Leicester on the final day. Playing for a draw is just asking for trouble

Unless we lose to West Ham now a draw is what we’re going to need. I’d rather pump West Ham by 3 goals of more because I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t lose by 2 goals to Leicester the way they’re playing at the moment.

 

[RDCR07]

After this weeks performances I ain’t confident at all going into these two games. Will be a test of Ole’s man management skills to see if he can pick them up after this. Also hope we somehow recover physically for Wednesday’s game.

 

[Yagami]

We will know precisely on Wed.

For that game I hope we tweak our midfield a little bit. Not in terms of personnel, but just bring Fernandes back a bit, and stop Matic becoming a 3rd CB in the build-up phase. I think having them closer together will go a long way to improving our general play.

It’s worrying given the exact same thing happened last season but on a larger scale. Brilliant in Ole’s early games against Cardiff, Bournemouth etc. then we were still winning games but being very lucky like Leicester away, PSG away and performances were dropping week by week before we entered into the worst run of form I’ve ever seen.

We’ve gotta just come up with 2 performances now and then we can end where we want to be.

That's what is really adding to my pessimism. Like many are already claiming, I do hope we've turned a corner and snap ourselves out of this slump in form.

At this point, we just need to avoid defeat by any means necessary. Then we'll hopefully come back fresher for a Europa League cup run to finish off the season.

 

[sp_107]

After this weeks performances I ain’t confident at all going into these two games. Will be a test of Ole’s man management skills to see if he can pick them up after this. Also hope we somehow recover physically for Wednesday’s game.

Bloody Southampton, hope we stuff them twice next year.

Now every one started copying them and getting more physical, West Ham gof few big bodies in them so hope we will be at our best on WED

 

[RDCR07]

Bloody Southampton, hope we stuff them twice next year.

Now every one started copying them and getting more physical, West Ham gof few big bodies in them so hope we will be at our best on WED

It’s not just tactics. Fatigue has played a huge factor. Ole not rotating at all these past few games have come back to bite us in the ass.

 

[always_hoping]

It’s not just tactics. Fatigue has played a huge factor. Ole not rotating at all these past few games have come back to bite us in the ass.

How many of the non first choice players can you trust to do a job when given the opportunity?

I think the last few games has proved that Uniteds strength in depth is not as good as some thought and a number of new signings will be required before next season.

 

[RDCR07]

How many of non first choice players can you trust to do a job when given the opportunity?

I think the last few games has proved that Uniteds strength in depth is not as good as some thought and a number of new signings will be required before next season.

Well yes we need additions. But people like McTominay, Bailly, Ighalo and Brandon Williams could have been used. We trusted them earlier in the season cause we didn’t have options and if we acclimated them with our starting XI since the restart we should have still done well enough to win games.

 

[bosnian_red]

So a draw or less than a 3-0 win vs West Ham leaves us needing to avoid defeat against Leicester. Winning 3 or 4-0 means we can lose 1-0 and still qualify. Win 5-0 and we can lose by 2 goals against Leicester and still qualify.

Any win vs West Ham for us means Chelsea needs to get more than 2 points from Liverpool away and Wolves at home, if Leicester beats us on the last day.

 

[ZolaWasMagic]

So a draw or less than a 3-0 win vs West Ham leaves us needing to avoid defeat against Leicester. Winning 3 or 4-0 means we can lose 1-0 and still qualify. Win 5-0 and we can lose by 2 goals against Leicester and still qualify.

Any win vs West Ham for us means Chelsea needs to get more than 2 points from Liverpool away and Wolves at home, if Leicester beats us on the last day.

Anything can happen on the day of course, but if Utd play like they did against Soton Palace and today, especially today, im not so sure you'll beat west ham tbh. West Ham if they are safe will just play with no pressure and the shackles off.

 

[Offside]

It’s not just tactics. Fatigue has played a huge factor. Ole not rotating at all these past few games have come back to bite us in the ass.

Problem is the gulf between the best XI and the bench is too big. We got a taste of it in the middle of our great post-lockdown form where we were shite against Norwich.

 

[bosnian_red]

Anything can happen on the day of course, but if Utd play like they did against Soton Palace and today, especially today, im not so sure you'll beat west ham tbh. West Ham if they are safe will just play with no pressure and the shackles off.

We all know by now that United and Chelsea equally have runs of good games with random shit games thrown in. Just like how Sheffield hammered you 3-0, and how West Ham beat you 3-2. United today definitely had one eye on Wednesday and it resulted in us losing and a performance where pretty much everyone had off days. It happens. I'd be very surprised if it's something that is the same in the next game though.

 

[WeePat]

It's crazy what a win like that can do one's confidence. Bring on Liverpool.

 

[RDCR07]

Problem is the gulf between the best XI and the bench is too big. We got a taste of it in the middle of our great post-lockdown form where we were shite against Norwich.

That was one game. The less they play the worse their performances get. Also we don’t have the money to buy 6-7 players this summer so we have to make do with most of these players for next year as well. Might as well integrate them into the first XI to give them confidence and make them improve.

 

[sammsky1]

On the WH game, Id actually rotate for that game, take the risk that the worst we will get is a draw, just freshen everything up.
Rest the big guns for a massive game v Leicester regardless.

Ole doesn’t have the balls for that, else he’d have managed the rotations much better since lockdown instead of continually playing his big guns.

The end of this season reminds me of end of 1991/92 season, when we’d led league for most of season, only to run out of gas right at the end . SAF kept putting out his best players, but Robson and co could barely walk by the end, won only 1 game in final 6, handing title to Leeds. I can see the same drop in form right now because of fatigue.

Really annoyed with our approach today, and I can’t see how our players can be refreshed by Wednesday. The only hope is that West Ham are equally fatigued and 2% less desire because they are safe from relegation. Home advantage is also a massive advantage for us. De Gea vs Romario is a massive call (Jim Leighton vs Les Turner!)

I think West Ham is the most important game to win, because by Leicester our team will have zero in the tank, Leicester will have had a full weeks rest and with similar do or die motivation: very problematic.

 

[Infra-red]

It’s not just tactics. Fatigue has played a huge factor. Ole not rotating at all these past few games have come back to bite us in the ass.

To be fair to Solskjaer, he's a novice at this level and he had an abysmal first half of the season (one can only assume that, as he tucked into his Christmas dinner, he must have been contemplating a summer of job hunting ahead).

Then, along comes Fernandes and Ole stumbles on a formula that actually seems to work - suddenly, we're getting consistent results for the first time since he was promoted from the caretaker role - we're looking dangerous and scoring goals.

Of course he doesn't want to meddle with that, so, despite the obvious fatigue and diminishing returns, he has just kept fielding that same XI, breaking a 27 year old record for consecutive starting XIs in the process. His actions here might end up costing us top 4, but you can completely understand why Ole did it.

 

[Shark]

It's crazy what a win like that can do one's confidence. Bring on Liverpool.

Liverpool simply can't be as bad a visibly tired and rotated United.

 

[RDCR07]

To be fair to Solskjaer, he's a novice at this level and he had an abysmal first half of the season (one can only assume that, as he tucked into his Christmas dinner, he must have been contemplating a summer of job hunting ahead).

Then, along comes Fernandes and Ole stumbles on a formula that actually seems to work - suddenly, we're getting consistent results for the first time since he was promoted from the caretaker role - we're looking dangerous and scoring goals.

Of course he doesn't want to meddle with that, so, despite the obvious fatigue and diminishing returns, he has just kept fielding that same XI, breaking a 27 year old record for consecutive starting XIs in the process. His actions here might end up costing us top 4, but you can completely understand why Ole did it.

That’s why it’s a team. It’s a squad and he has staff to help him out. Then why come out and say he trusts his players and they will all get their chance in the weeks to come. You aren’t rewarding players for doing a good job when Pogba and Bruno weren’t here. Ighalo, Fred and McTominay have done well for us this season and I feel if we gave them a run these past few games people like Bruno and Matic wouldn’t look fatigued now.

 

[always_hoping]

Liverpool simply can't be as bad a visibly tired and rotated United.

Like United they are in a mood to offer gifts. Allison, Van Dijk v Arsenal are examples to that.

 

[WeePat]

Liverpool simply can't be as bad a visibly tired and rotated United.

I was mostly just referring to my own confidence as a supporter. It'll have no bearing on how either team fares.

 

[Infra-red]

That’s why it’s a team. It’s a squad and he has staff to help him out. Then why come out and say he trusts his players and they will all get their chance in the weeks to come. You aren’t rewarding players for doing a good job when Pogba and Bruno weren’t here. Ighalo, Fred and McTominay have done well for us this season and I feel if we gave them a run these past few games people like Bruno and Matic wouldn’t look fatigued now.

Yes I agree. There's no question that he should have rotated more than he has done and it is possibly going to cost us in what is now likely to be a make-or-break week for the entire season.

All I am saying is that I can understand his reticence to change things - he doesn't have much experience at this level and after 12 months of largely poor results, he has finally stumbled across something that actually works. It's a mistake, but an understandable one.

 

[sammsky1]

That’s why it’s a team. It’s a squad and he has staff to help him out. Then why come out and say he trusts his players and they will all get their chance in the weeks to come. You aren’t rewarding players for doing a good job when Pogba and Bruno weren’t here. Ighalo, Fred and McTominay have done well for us this season and I feel if we gave them a run these past few games people like Bruno and Matic wouldn’t look fatigued now.

Caveat: I'm very pro OGS

Lowering standards slightly, to ensure your top players are always fresh is a key part of the modern game.

Part of the validation for OGS being manager is that he was observing SAF for years, and was part of the 'rotator's' that helped the team compete on every front. And then he has Phelen who was alongside SAF for the entire journey and SAF on speed dial. OGS should have plenty of insight into this part of squad management.

I agree with you that it's bit of a slap in the face for McT, Fred and Igalo to have had so little meaningful game time post lockdown, given their huge role being unbeaten pre lockdown. I really don't understand why he hasn't trusted them more. He's made a real mess of it.

 

[KChucky88]

Chelsea is now 3rd place but man utd need draw both then good to stay 4th place if 5th then Europa

 

[passing-wind]

If we still cannot get top 4 then I worry for the future of this club. Europa or not, Top 4 is a must.

Really turn sour towards Ole if he fails to galvanise the team for two results against average opposition. Leicester have injury's to their main players and West Ham have been inconsistent. One concern is that Solskjaer lined up against Chelsea like he wanted to win the competition and In the grand scheme of things the FA cup is an absolutely useless accomplishment if we are still in Europa next season.

 

[RDCR07]

Caveat: I'm very pro OGS

Lowering standards slightly, to ensure your top players are always fresh is a key part of the modern game.

Part of the validation for OGS being manager is that he was observing SAF for years, and was part of the 'rotator's' that helped the team compete on every front. And then he has Phelen who was alongside SAF for the entire journey and SAF on speed dial. OGS should have plenty of insight into this part of squad management.

I agree with you that it's bit of a slap in the face for McT, Fred and Igalo to have had so little meaningful game time post lockdown, given their huge role being unbeaten pre lockdown. I really don't understand why he hasn't trusted them more. He's made a real mess of it.

Oh don’t get me wrong. Just cause I’m saying these things I’m not saying he is inept and want him fired. I want him to make it at United as much as you want to. The thing is he always talks about SAF did things which I was happy about but Fergie never played the same team 6 games in a row. He actually rotated because he genuinely trusted his players no matter their quality and still got them to do a job.

 

[Gasolin]

Oh don’t get me wrong. Just cause I’m saying these things I’m not saying he is inept and want him fired. I want him to make it at United as much as you want to. The thing is he always talks about SAF did things which I was happy about but Fergie never played the same team 6 games in a row. He actually rotated because he genuinely trusted his players no matter their quality and still got them to do a job.

Ole at Molde rotated a lot so the only explanation can be that he did not think the team would be able to do it. So that's something we need to work it out with him. We need squad depth with quality. Maybe not 22 top players, but we really need something around 15/18 top players so that we can pick and choose.

 

[hungrywing]

Caveat: I'm very pro OGS

Lowering standards slightly, to ensure your top players are always fresh is a key part of the modern game.

Part of the validation for OGS being manager is that he was observing SAF for years, and was part of the 'rotator's' that helped the team compete on every front. And then he has Phelen who was alongside SAF for the entire journey and SAF on speed dial. OGS should have plenty of insight into this part of squad management.

I agree with you that it's bit of a slap in the face for McT, Fred and Igalo to have had so little meaningful game time post lockdown, given their huge role being unbeaten pre lockdown. I really don't understand why he hasn't trusted them more. He's made a real mess of it.

Other people in other threads are pointing this out as well. Adding a +1 for more visibility.

Fred and Mctominay are good enough to be able to give Bruno, Matic and Pogba a rest every third or fourth game, keep everyone fresh and feeling like they're contributing/ready to contribute at any time. Ditto Ighalo.

Ole at Molde rotated a lot so the only explanation can be that he did not think the team would be able to do it. So that's something we need to work it out with him. We need squad depth with quality. Maybe not 22 top players, but we really need something around 15/18 top players so that we can pick and choose.

If this is true it could be a strong indicator that he feels the dropoff in quality is great enough to threaten the three points. (It could also be at Molde everyone was about equally mediocre)

I don't think the dropoff is anywhere near that dramatic in midfield at least.

 

[sammsky1]

Oh don’t get me wrong. Just cause I’m saying these things I’m not saying he is inept and want him fired. I want him to make it at United as much as you want to. The thing is he always talks about SAF did things which I was happy about but Fergie never played the same team 6 games in a row. He actually rotated because he genuinely trusted his players no matter their quality and still got them to do a job.

SAF changed his team for at least 99 times in a row during one period!!!

 

[TMDaines]

Caveat: I'm very pro OGS

Lowering standards slightly, to ensure your top players are always fresh is a key part of the modern game.

Part of the validation for OGS being manager is that he was observing SAF for years, and was part of the 'rotator's' that helped the team compete on every front. And then he has Phelen who was alongside SAF for the entire journey and SAF on speed dial. OGS should have plenty of insight into this part of squad management.

I agree with you that it's bit of a slap in the face for McT, Fred and Igalo to have had so little meaningful game time post lockdown, given their huge role being unbeaten pre lockdown. I really don't understand why he hasn't trusted them more. He's made a real mess of it.

Whilst I largely disagree on the United lads being shattered, I do agree on this. It’s a mental thing as much as anything. Since the restart there’s clearly been a preferred XI and others. It puts pressure on the other lads when they finally get to be involved, rather than getting regular game time throughout the good spells.

 

[TMDaines]

SAF changed his team for at least 99 times in a row during one period!!!

I’m pretty sure one of our managers in the last 20 years either named unique XIs for every league match in the season, or certainly didn’t repeat one until well into spring.

 

[theklr]

Think this sudden chance of getting top 4 has really made Ole unsure of himself and the team as you all point out. Not having enough trust in Fred/McT midfield, not putting Romero in goal.

I really cant blaim him though, the drop in quality has been noticable whenever there is another player in on the team. There is a big conundrum because you need those squad players to have a decent run of games to get top form.