Tom Cleverley

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Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
The season is still in infancy. Gibson will get his chance.
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Gibson just isn't good enough. Have seen nothing in his performances for either United or for Ireland to suggest he'll take his chance at United if he does get one. He would need to up and expand his game massively to make it at United - the only thing he brings to the table at the moment is a cracking shot - and that just isn't enough.
 
Very encouraging article, that.

In regards to Gibson, I'm inclined to agree. Could be wrong, but I'm not convinced there's enough to him as a player to make it here. He's a brick shithouse with a hell of a shot, and his passing can be good on his day, but when you look at the players he's up against, this isn't really enough.

Technically, he's a fair bit behind someone like Eikrem (who is really knocking on the door at the moment) and, whilst technical ability isn't the be all and end all of a footballer, I'm not convinced he's got enough in his locker to compensate for this. He hasn't, for example, got the athleticism of Anderson, the work rate of Fletcher or the composure of Carrick.

Not trying to run him down, but I've never really been convinced.
 
Mitch Conor said:
Gibson just isn't good enough. Have seen nothing in his performances for either United or for Ireland to suggest he'll take his chance at United if he does get one. He would need to up and expand his game massively to make it at United - the only thing he brings to the table at the moment is a cracking shot - and that just isn't enough.
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I don't buy this at all. He can pass the ball better than Fletcher and he has a better shot than all our midfielders bar Scholes. And he is young enough to improve here and patient enough to bid his time. In a midfield that will soon have Scholes and Giggs gone. Meaning 2 squad places up for grabs.
 
By the time Giggs and Scholes have retire or at least waned, the likes of Eikrem, James and Cleverley will all be having a chance whilst I would say Gibson will be long gone.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
I don't buy this at all. He can pass the ball better than Fletcher and he has a better shot than all our midfielders bar Scholes. And he is young enough to improve here and patient enough to bid his time. In a midfield that will soon have Scholes and Giggs gone. Meaning 2 squad places up for grabs.
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fair enough - you have faith in him that I clearly don't.

I just don't think he is anywhere enar impressive enough. He can be a good passer of the ball, but needs way too much time to pick a pass. He isn't a great tackler, and certainly doesn't impose himself on games. In terms of all round play, I have never been all that impressed with his contribution to games. For a guy of his size he should be getting stuck in, but he just doesn't do it. I have never watched a game he started in and though "Great performance from Gibson".

If Gibson is a player we are looking at to replace either Scholes or Giggs, we're screwed.
 
Mitch Conor said:
fair enough - you have faith in him that I clearly don't.

I just don't think he is anywhere enar impressive enough. He can be a good passer of the ball, but needs way too much time to pick a pass. He isn't a great tackler, and certainly doesn't impose himself on games. In terms of all round play, I have never been all that impressed with his contribution to games. For a guy of his size he should be getting stuck in, but he just doesn't do it. I have never watched a game he started in and though "Great performance from Gibson".

If Gibson is a player we are looking at to replace either Scholes or Giggs, we're screwed.
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We are looking to the likes of Gibson, Clevererly, Eikrem and Petrucci to fill the squad roles currently occupied by the likes of Anderson. Because the likes of Anderson, Fletcher and co are the ones expected to replace Scholes and Giggs in our midfield proper.

& IMO Eikrem and Petrucci for my money will prove more than squad player material. If they don't make it here they will just move on rather than just be in the squad. So I see no reason why Cleverly and Gibson can't be our next set of excellent squad players. For I don't see them having obvious competition for such a role. & they both seem patient lads.
 
I would not rule Gibson out at the moment as Fergie has really started talking him up this past year and I for one did think he was on the way out after his spell at Wolves. Gibson has a belter of a shot(in both feet as well) and is a decent passer of the ball. Overall the rest of his game is nothing special but it is not particiarly weak either and there is scope for improvement. To be honest Gibson's long range shooting is such a rariety in our midfield that I am happy to have him around simply for that.

It is not as if we have not seen youngsters develop late and win over doubters well into their twenties. Fletcher and JOS(aside from that one ridicilious season) are probably the best examples of players who have continued to improve year on year into their twenties. If JOS can improve his game enough to be first choice right back for United, Gibson can do likewise if given a shot.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Well he can pass the ball better than Fletch, is bigger than all our midfielders, can shoot better than almost all of them, and is young enough to improve.
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Is it? I've seen him play a few great passes, but I'm not entirely convinced he's a better passer of the ball than Fletch. Also, he may be bigger than the rest of our midfield, but I'd rather be trying to get the ball off him than, say, Anderson or Scholes. He's not necessarily the strongest on the ball despite his size.
Yes, Gibson's shooting can be lethal, but we've got a hell of a lot of youngsters coming through that have a cracking shot on them and all (Eikrem, James, Petrucci, Norwood, Ljajic etc).

I just think he has too few distinguishing attributes to make his mark here.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Well he can pass the ball better than Fletch, is bigger than all our midfielders, can shoot better than almost all of them, and is young enough to improve.
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Ole'sbodyguard said:
I would not rule Gibson out at the moment as Fergie has really started talking him up this past year and I for one did think he was on the way out after his spell at Wolves. Gibson has a belter of a shot(in both feet as well) and is a decent passer of the ball. Overall the rest of his game is nothing special but it is not particiarly weak either and there is scope for improvement. To be honest Gibson's long range shooting is such a rariety in our midfield that I am happy to have him around simply for that.

It is not as if we have not seen youngsters develop late and win over doubters well into their twenties. Fletcher and JOS(aside from that one ridicilious season) are probably the best examples of players who have continued to improve year on year into their twenties. If JOS can improve his game enough to be first choice right back for United, Gibson can do likewise if given a shot.
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Thing is, Fletcher was an outstanding footballer from a very young age. In a way, the level he's at now was almost to be expected when he was a youngster. O'Shea was also a very exciting prospect as we all know. Just think how hard it was for these two despite how much they shined earlier in their career. I've not seen anything in Gibson at any level to suggest he is as promising as these two were.

Again, I'm not completely dismissing Gibson. I don't want to make out that I think he'd be better suited to Sunday League; to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if he held his own at a good club in the Premiership in the future. Unfortunately, you simply have to be a very, very good youngster to become even a squad player here.
 
KingEric7 said:
Thing is, Fletcher was an outstanding footballer from a very young age. In a way, the level he's at now was almost to be expected when he was a youngster. O'Shea was also a very exciting prospect as we all know. Just think how hard it was for these two despite how much they shined earlier in their career. I've not seen anything in Gibson at any level to suggest he is as promising as these two were.

Again, I'm not completely dismissing Gibson. I don't want to make out that I think he'd be better suited to Sunday League; to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if he held his own at a good club in the Premiership in the future. Unfortunately, you simply have to be a very, very good youngster to become even a squad player here.
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Fletcher was an outstanding young footballer before his injury and he was a player who had big things predicted for him. Still he did not fulfil that potential at first and has really had to work on his game to make up for those years he lost.

Not sure if JOS was ever in the same bracket. I remember seeing a fair bit of JOS in his early days and 2002/03 was a massive surprise to me. I always had his down as someone who could develop into a decent centre back with work, I never had him down as the maraudering full back of that season and to be honest he has never looked like that player again. That season JOS was being compared to Norman Whiteside by plenty such was the excitement he created who would be the dogs bollocks anywhere and plenty thought he would move into midfield to take Keane's role due to the power, skill and ability to adapt to anything he showed. It sounds ridicilious now but that was the buzz created and it just seems like a complete freak result where he overachieved going on what followed as some of those qualities disappeared overnight.

The season that saved JOS's united career for me was 05/06 when he gave Giggs a reliable midfield partner and has rebuilt his United career through this versatility and how solidly he has became defensively over the last few years which has now pushed into the first team regularly in one position.

JOS for me is a good example of how footballers can improve incrementally year on year just by being good professionals. Gaz and Phil are also examples of this type of player and Fergie has always shown a patience to stick by his players. I am not convinced Gibson will make it either but it certainly has a shot of making it as a squad player.
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
Fletcher was an outstanding young footballer before his injury and he was a player who had big things predicted for him. Still he did not fulfil that potential at first and has really had to work on his game to make up for those years he lost.

Not sure if JOS was ever in the same bracket. I remember seeing a fair bit of JOS in his early days and 2002/03 was a massive surprise to me. I always had his down as someone who could develop into a decent centre back with work, I never had him down as the maraudering full back of that season and to be honest he has never looked like that player again. That season JOS was being compared to Norman Whiteside by plenty such was the excitement he created who would be the dogs bollocks anywhere and plenty thought he would move into midfield to take Keane's role due to the power, skill and ability to adapt to anything he showed. It sounds ridicilious now but that was the buzz created and it just seems like a complete freak result where he overachieved going on what followed as some of those qualities disappeared overnight.

The season that saved JOS's united career for me was 05/06 when he gave Giggs a reliable midfield partner and has rebuilt his United career through this versatility and how solidly he has became defensively over the last few years which has now pushed into the first team regularly in one position.

JOS for me is a good example of how footballers can improve incrementally year on year just by being good professionals. Gaz and Phil are also examples of this type of player and Fergie has always shown a patience to stick by his players. I am not convinced Gibson will make it either but it certainly has a shot of making it as a squad player.
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great post.
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
I would not rule Gibson out at the moment as Fergie has really started talking him up this past year and I for one did think he was on the way out after his spell at Wolves. Gibson has a belter of a shot(in both feet as well) and is a decent passer of the ball. Overall the rest of his game is nothing special but it is not particiarly weak either and there is scope for improvement. To be honest Gibson's long range shooting is such a rariety in our midfield that I am happy to have him around simply for that.

It is not as if we have not seen youngsters develop late and win over doubters well into their twenties. Fletcher and JOS(aside from that one ridicilious season) are probably the best examples of players who have continued to improve year on year into their twenties. If JOS can improve his game enough to be first choice right back for United, Gibson can do likewise if given a shot.
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Well you have to look at who we have, who we have coming through but also praise from the boss means nothing. To be cynical it maintains his valuation especially at a time when he's not featuring.

I don't mind Gibson but he needs to step up a level or two to become a United player and to hold off the younger talents coming through

Let's not forget it's really up to Gibson. While he's a united player so are the younger kids like cleverly, james, Eikrem and there are others but them three have goals in them

As it stands, I don't think Gibbo's done enough to really force Sir Alex's hand which is a shame as he's Irish but praise means very little.

I appricate how young the season is, but having watched Gibson many times, he's too hit and miss for my liking and I believe we've better youth players coming through
 
KingEric7 said:
Is it? I've seen him play a few great passes, but I'm not entirely convinced he's a better passer of the ball than Fletch..
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It is actually rather obvious. I love Fletcher but he doesn't have this boys passing ability. At Gibson's age he was much worse at using the ball than Gibson is ATM.

KingEric7 said:
Also, he may be bigger than the rest of our midfield, but I'd rather be trying to get the ball off him than, say, Anderson or Scholes. He's not necessarily the strongest on the ball despite his size.
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I was listing attributes he brings to the midfield that others don't. Remember Fletcher not so long ago at the same age was deemed physically not that good on the ball. Gibson is young yet. I know he will get better and sue his size to his advantage as he progresses. He also isn't as easy to knock off the ball as you claim. I'm yet to see him lose it Tosic style.

KingEric7 said:
Yes, Gibson's shooting can be lethal, but we've got a hell of a lot of youngsters coming through that have a cracking shot on them and all (Eikrem, James, Petrucci, Norwood, Ljajic etc).
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Lets be honest here. None of them shoot with the power or accuracy of Gibson.

KingEric7 said:
I just think he has too few distinguishing attributes to make his mark here.
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Fair enough. I just expect him to prove you wrong the way Fletcher proved many wrong. I have little doubt he is a worthy member of our squad ATM. thus, I don't recommend shifting him out or writing him off because we have more fancy talents in the reserves. The lad has been solid whenever he has played for us and he can get much much better. I don't think you can ask for much more than that from him. IMO He should develop into a very solid squad player for us. & if we are lucky maybe even better.
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
Fletcher was an outstanding young footballer before his injury and he was a player who had big things predicted for him. Still he did not fulfil that potential at first and has really had to work on his game to make up for those years he lost.

Not sure if JOS was ever in the same bracket. I remember seeing a fair bit of JOS in his early days and 2002/03 was a massive surprise to me. I always had his down as someone who could develop into a decent centre back with work, I never had him down as the maraudering full back of that season and to be honest he has never looked like that player again. That season JOS was being compared to Norman Whiteside by plenty such was the excitement he created who would be the dogs bollocks anywhere and plenty thought he would move into midfield to take Keane's role due to the power, skill and ability to adapt to anything he showed. It sounds ridicilious now but that was the buzz created and it just seems like a complete freak result where he overachieved going on what followed as some of those qualities disappeared overnight.

The season that saved JOS's united career for me was 05/06 when he gave Giggs a reliable midfield partner and has rebuilt his United career through this versatility and how solidly he has became defensively over the last few years which has now pushed into the first team regularly in one position.

JOS for me is a good example of how footballers can improve incrementally year on year just by being good professionals. Gaz and Phil are also examples of this type of player and Fergie has always shown a patience to stick by his players. I am not convinced Gibson will make it either but it certainly has a shot of making it as a squad player.
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Spot on post. I see no reason why Gibson can't develop into a good squad player for us. Park or O'shea style. Same goes for Cleverly.
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
Fletcher was an outstanding young footballer before his injury and he was a player who had big things predicted for him. Still he did not fulfil that potential at first and has really had to work on his game to make up for those years he lost.

Not sure if JOS was ever in the same bracket. I remember seeing a fair bit of JOS in his early days and 2002/03 was a massive surprise to me. I always had his down as someone who could develop into a decent centre back with work, I never had him down as the maraudering full back of that season and to be honest he has never looked like that player again. That season JOS was being compared to Norman Whiteside by plenty such was the excitement he created who would be the dogs bollocks anywhere and plenty thought he would move into midfield to take Keane's role due to the power, skill and ability to adapt to anything he showed. It sounds ridicilious now but that was the buzz created and it just seems like a complete freak result where he overachieved going on what followed as some of those qualities disappeared overnight.

The season that saved JOS's united career for me was 05/06 when he gave Giggs a reliable midfield partner and has rebuilt his United career through this versatility and how solidly he has became defensively over the last few years which has now pushed into the first team regularly in one position.

JOS for me is a good example of how footballers can improve incrementally year on year just by being good professionals. Gaz and Phil are also examples of this type of player and Fergie has always shown a patience to stick by his players. I am not convinced Gibson will make it either but it certainly has a shot of making it as a squad player.
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Great post, and was going to mention Gary as well. He was repeatedly told he wasn't good enough, at youth level, in the reserves, and when he broke into the 1st team (by Schmikes) - and every time he worked harder than everyone else and kept his head down and look where he ended up. Talent is great but you need the mental strength and commitment too, which is why it's so difficult to identify which youngsters will make it. Sure Eikrem, Petrucci etc. are technically a lot more gifted than Gibson, but if he he works hard I can see him being a decent squad player for us. And you need squad players, otherwise you end up being like Rafa and bringing in lots of journeyman players to flesh out your squad, costing you money and damaging your team spirit. If we can develop the base of our squad through youngsters such as Gibson, O'Shea etc. then we can save our money to buy the occasional star like Rooney or Rio.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Lets be honest here. None of them shoot with the power of accuracy of Gibson.
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Think people are overdoing it with the talk of Gibson being lethal from long range. Would say James and Norwood in particular look just as good and on the limited evidence we've seen from Petrucci so far I'd say he's right up there too.

Also don't agree at all that Gibson's a better passer than Fletch.
 
For me the situation surrounding Gibson seems to be similar to the situation that was around Fraizer Campbell. Decent youngster who did fairly well in the Championship before coming back to United and finding their are quite a few younger prospects with arguably more potential on their way. Like Campbell, I reckon SAF will prefer the younger players and Gibson will get sold. I know the Rubberman was a big fan of Campbell as well and dismissed the idea that Welbeck and Macheda would quickly edge him out.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
At Gibson's age he was much worse at using the ball than Gibson is.
Maybe he has a better shot, better passing-abilities and in general a better physique. Maybe he is even technical superior to Fletcher - or to him at the same age. I disagree on that last one, but it might be true. Several players probably are. Players who never will be able to get near the Premier League. Most of it is quite overrated.

But Fletchers vision has always been great. Not necessarily the eye for a brilliant ball, but his ability to "inform himself" of where his opponents and teamplayers are. This quality gives him an extra second on the ball. He has always been very "realistic" about his own qualitites and makes the right choices. On these qualities, I can't see that Gibson is on level with Fletcher - not even a twenty year old Fletcher. That said, I've always liked Fletcher. I also feel that he sometimes is too slow on the ball.

Cleverley and Eikrem seem like great prospects, though.
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andersj said:
Maybe he has a better shot, better passing-abilities and in general a better physique. Maybe he is even technical superior to Fletcher - or to him at the same age. I disagree on that last one, but it might be true. Several players probably are. Players who never will be able to get near the Premier League. Most of it is quite overrated.
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The things is if Fletcher improved to the level he is at now why can't Gibson? Gibson is yet to play truly awfully for us since the start of last year. But suddenly there is all this talk he isn't good enough at this and that.

This season he hasn't yet got playing time due to the from our our other main midfielders (evidenced by Giggs being forced to play as winger again) but people are making out as if its because of a lack of quality.

Even when he finally played when we beat Wolves with he was the best mdfielder on pitch.

What I'm finding funny is all this talk that the likes of the toally untested Eikrem and Petrucci are much better and the lieks of Nowrood's and James' who are just as unstested suddenly shoot as well as Gibson. It's like what happened to Fletcher in the past all over again.

andersj said:
But Fletchers vision has always been great. Not necessarily the eye for a brilliant ball, but his ability to "inform himself" of where his opponents and teamplayers are. This quality gives him an extra second on the ball. He has always been very "realistic" about his own qualitites and makes the right choices. On these qualities, I can't see that Gibson is on level with Fletcher - not even a twenty year old Fletcher. That said, I've always liked Fletcher. I also feel that he sometimes is too slow on the ball.
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Fletcher used to be inferior at ball usage to what he does now. Even though he never had poor vision.

I have no doubt Gibson uses the ball far better than Fletcher did at his age. People on here have short memories. Gibson is also decent at other things. He also should be able to get better at all aspects of his play while at United. If he is patient to wait for his chance. So I'm failing to see why all over a sudden everyone has classed him as a no hopper. IMO he has done nothing to deserve such a tag.

Seriously if O'shea can play in our midfield competently. Why not Gibson? Are people on here suggesting he is worse at being midfielder than O'shea?
 
PS18 said:
Think people are overdoing it with the talk of Gibson being lethal from long range. Would say James and Norwood in particular look just as good and on the limited evidence we've seen from Petrucci so far I'd say he's right up there too.
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Gibson is better than all those fellas from range because he has proved it at all the levels he has played in. When those fellas do it in a first team shirt or at least at Champions ship level, then I might start to agree with you.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
For me the situation surrounding Gibson seems to be similar to the situation that was around Fraizer Campbell. Decent youngster who did fairly well in the Championship before coming back to United and finding their are quite a few younger prospects with arguably more potential on their way. Like Campbell, I reckon SAF will prefer the younger players and Gibson will get sold. I know the Rubberman was a big fan of Campbell as well and dismissed the idea that Welbeck and Macheda would quickly edge him out.
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Nice try but the situations are not even close to the same. Campbell never came back and got a chance. He returned and was sold immediately.

Gibson situation is more like Fletcher's. With the difference being Gibson was on loan and Flecther was injured. We both know how the Fletcher thing turned out.

We also know I was one of Fletcher's biggest defenders from day 1. Saying give the lad a chance. I'm just doing the same here. Just like Fletcher back then, Gibson has been decent for us whenever Fergie has given him a chance in his favoured role. So don't be so quick to write him off .
 
Missed yesterday's game with a mild concussion. Might be back this weekend.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Gibson is better than all those fellas from range becasue he has proved it at all the levels he has played in. When those fellas do it in a first team shirt or at least at Champions ship level, then I might start to agree with you.
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I'm sorry, Gibson's proved what exactly? He's scored one goal for the first team :confused:
 
Mitch Conor said:
two.

A close(ish) range volley at Old Trafford and the one at Hull on the last day of the season.
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Thought after I turned the laptop last night that I'd made a cock-up there. Meant to say he'd only scored one belter from distance (the Derby(?) one was a decent hit but went low and left the keeper unsighted iirc). Point was that that on its own proves nothing - the ability to strike a ball from distance isn't something you acquire or lose as you move up or down a level, so just because Gibson had got a great one at first-team level, it doesn't automatically make him any better at it than those who haven't yet played first-team football.

It'd be like someone in the early 90s saying Russell Beardsmore was a better passer of the ball than the emerging Beckham or Scholes because he'd made passes at first-team level while the other two were still only playing reserve football.
 
gibson has so much to prove still I don't know what there is to debate?

The lad, hasn't even played 3 games in a row let alone been part of a squad - getting 20 games that challenges for all competitions.

The problem for me is he's not quick and he's not very mobile. So you look and is he good enough to be a first teamer? Can he replace scholes? Giggs? I don't think he can

I also don't think he's better then what we have already. Added to that, I think we've a lot of promising kids coming through who do have the potential

The people saying lampard etc...it's wishful thinking. If gibson could score 20 goals a season ...great! You can't jump to that total from 1 or 2 or 3 goals...

Even scholes only got twenty 1 time in his career, so Gibson has proved nothing and actually is looking to build on what he did last season to show he has what it takes - only time will show that.

However it's just to show he's progressing. It's make or break in some respects irrespective of contract we see that with phil neville.
 
To take it back on topic (sorry Gibson debaters)...

Cleverley has 2 assists so far tonight as Watford are 4-1 up. He set up both Lansbury's goals, the 2nd in particular a great run and awareness to pick out Lansbury to leave him a simple tap in.

He's been on the fringes of the game a bit but has looked very confident when he's got on the ball and worked hard all night. He's a player who nearly always seems to make the right decision, he's neat and tidy, good vision and weight of pass and is pretty skilful too, always impressed me whenever I've seen him and seems to be improving all the time. Seems a real crowd favourite already at Watford too.
 
datura said:
To take it back on topic (sorry Gibson debaters)...

Cleverley has 2 assists so far tonight as Watford are 4-1 up. He set up both Lansbury's goals, the 2nd in particular a great run and awareness to pick out Lansbury to leave him a simple tap in.

He's been on the fringes of the game a bit but has looked very confident when he's got on the ball and worked hard all night. He's a player who nearly always seems to make the right decision, he's neat and tidy, good vision and weight of pass and is pretty skilful too, always impressed me whenever I've seen him and seems to be improving all the time. Seems a real crowd favourite already at Watford too.
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Wonderful run and as you say his decision making seems top class and this load spell is doing him a lot of good, its a tough league.
 
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