I think Cleverly will mature and learn very well. He has great movement off the ball to try to create space and is always looking up and around for that pass. He needs to watch scholes in terms of learning to see that penetrating surprise pass to the front line. Scholes is like a chess player, he seems to think two moves ahead which is why, although lacking his pace of old, he still dictates games so well from the midfield position. Having said that, Ferguson knows how to use scholes these days. He's a player who now needs a bit of space and time to really play his game and pick out those passes, and the best period to get him on is during the second half when the oppositioin team begin to tire. The pace slows down and the spaces open up allowing a bit more time on the ball. He is less effective during the first half when there is a lot of closing down. This is when Cleverly is so useful, quick passes, running off the ball, possession etc which eventually tires the opposition...
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
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I have to say I completely agree, although I'd like your opinion on something.
Who do you think is the best to partner Cleverley?
Honestly him and Carrick haven't gotten that used to each other's playing styles yet, and he does seem better on the eye when he's playing with Anderson, but we're more fragile in defense with them in the middle.
Some say he needs someone like Anderson due to his quick pass and move thinking, which allows us to open up the opponents' defenses easier, while others claim Cleverley needs someone to do the defensive job partnered with him (most obvious option is Carrick). I honestly have to agree with both, but am really "in the dark" as to who I'd have him playing with.
But that's not his main game and strength.
Plus nobody else in our midfield can tackle, except Carrick, who hasn't really played in midfield.
Both is the answer. We need Anderson and TC with Carrick behind them especially away from home.
We should be looking to play 3 in the middle far more often. Otherwise with Carrick as the screen, TC needs to be the playmaker, and he looked far from that in the last game.
It's not just about being a neat and tidy player, away from home you have to be able to dictate the pace of the game. Know when to play it forward quickly, and when to take the pace out of the game. That is what Scholes brings to the party time and again. Not just his technical ability it's using his head too.
TC has promise but he is nowhere near Scholes yet imo. Scholes is a master, and TC has a lot to learn. If we go with any 2 atm, it has to be Anderson and Carrick, if Ando is fit of course.
Cleverley will never be anywhere near Scholes level. The sooner people accept that the better, the expectations on here are ridiculous at times.
Nah, not yet he has to playmake far more as the less defensive player in a 2.
I haven't seen him run a game yet. He can only play one way atm, he struggled to impose his game on the Saints midfield at all, and was of even less use defensively imo.
Scholes showed him how it was done, and it was nothing to do with tiredness. Saints certainly didn't look tired up to the point of bringing Scholes on. He just showed how a superior player can dictate the pace of midfield against far inferior opposition. TC just isn't there yet. It's not all about quick one two's, don't forget you are out of the game if they go wrong. You have to use your head as well as your talent.
Tackling is not the same as defending effectively. It doesn't matter how good at tackling Cleverly is if his game is based around heading to the final third - which is what happened during the Southampton game.
Read the post I answered to.
I don't agree that he lacks the physical presence to play in midfield with regards to the defensive side of the game, is all.
I've stated numerous times that his positional awareness is the one area of his game he needs to improve the most.
I agree with andrew on this. We saw him brushed aside with ease against Dembele, and against Fellaini he could not even impact the second ball.
No-one is knocking him, he is what he is. Scholes was never that good defensively, but he was so outstanding on the ball he hurt teams far more consistently than TC's game can.
TC is nowhere near as good as Scholes on the ball, and he simply doesn't have his intelligence in how to use it either. Little one 2's are great at times, but they are risky too, and can take you out of the game in an instant.
Is Tc's tackling good enough to make up for the fact he cannot control the tempo of games in possession? Not for me, he gives you some dynamism, but dynamism is not always called for.
Scholes knows when to spread play, when to play it forward quickly, when to keep it and take the pace out of the game when the opponents are gaining momentum. He is a class above, and although i have long championed TC for his attacking dynamism, i don't see enough playmaker in him to take over Scholes anytime soon. He has a hell of a lot to learn about how to control a game imo, especially away from OT.
I did, and to be fair the post you were responding to made several points - some good, some bad - which you responded to by saying Cleverly is good at tackling. It just appeared at first to be a bit of a narrow reply.
I do think though, Cleverly probably isn't a central midfielder and won't replace Scholes. Great backup for Kagawa though. Can't wait to watch him play behind the striker tonight for England.
If you watch the second goal against us against Southampton, you will notice Cleverley jogging along them as they pass the ball into our half. At some stage he actually runs the wrong direction of the play. It wasn't all his fault but the play went straight through the middle and I would have expected him to at least chase or try to tackle. He didn't do either.
I'm not having a go but for the first time I realised that Cleverley is not your typical box to box midfielder who will impact out game.
I'm not having a go but for the first time I realised that Cleverley is not your typical box to box midfielder who will impact out game.
Got to consider the fact that it was his and Carrick's first game together. Having said that, i remember the exact incident you refer to. It was Puncheon, who made a run from the rm position and Evra tracked him at first. but when he moved into midfield, Evra let him go and TC was completely unaware Puncheon was in behind him until he got the ball. Once TC realised he ran to close him down , but when he drifted left TC just let him go.
Puncheon waited for the overlap, played him in and the the cross led to the goal. I blame a general lack of communication for most of the chances we concede, and that was a prime example in my view. No communication between Tc and Carrick, none by Evra to TC in that instance, and once Puncheon drifted left, Rafael had to close the man with the ball and then couldn't close down the cross. Left in no mans land really due to poor communication and organisation leading up to that goal.
It was all simply left to somebody else and nobody ended up doing anything.
Starts ahead of Carrick. Far play.. lets see how he gets on.
I'm glad that clev is getting matches for England but I'd hoped he would played in a more deeper role. He needs all the games he can get and its gonna be tough going from playing a pure attacking role like that to a more reserved role for us.
Has cruised through the first half for England in the first half.
Its embarrassing how much better Cleverley is than the rest of the England midfield tonight. Some of the "pass attempts" by Gerrard and Lampard have been terrible. Its been argued that all Cleverley is good at is keeping things ticking along but when you compare his ability to keep the ball and find teammates tonight to the various instant concessions of possession by so-called world class midfielders (one of whom was runner up for the Ballon d'or) it brings into perspective how lucky we are to have him at United.
Not according to the wanker commentators.
I've seen him a couple of times in acres of space calling for the ball only for the player currently with it to play a shit pass to a player surrounded by 2/3 opposition players.
Scott Murray was raving about him in the Guardian PBP
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/07/moldova-england-live-world-cup-qualifers
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/07/moldova-england-live-world-cup-qualifers
Is it just me or is he not fond of shooting?
Totally, it was especially notizable in the game against Soton.
I dont think "hit and hope" is in his makeup, he looks for a clear shot on goal. He should pay attention to Lampard. You'll only be rated if you score goals.
I noticed it open up for him a few times though. The balance needs to be right but I'd like to.see him shoot more
He needs to add goals and assists when he plays in that position. Neat and Tidy again, just lacking that something to make him a special player.
Happens a lot.
Forget keeping the ball, you can lose it every single time it comes to you but if you can arrive late into the box and smash it in often enough people will call you "WORLD CLASS".
That's the way it is. In England anyway. But it would be foolish to deny that scoring lots of goals, no matter how scruffy, is a useful talent.
Today he did well as an advanced midfielder. Wasn't as deep as he plays for United. Was pretty impressive.
You don't know that no more than any of us, things may go pear shaped on him at some point and his career could nose dive but then again, with a shit load of dedication to becoming the best he can be he could turn into a superb little midfielder and possibly not far off the ninja himself.
Do us a favour and read your crystal ball there and give us the euro millions winning numbers for next Friday while your at it.
I'm sure the goals will come. He's had the chances. Just needs to break his duck.
I'd never argue anything other. Cleverley does need to do better in front of goal. What's annoying especially when you look at Scholesy's England career is how much the other side is neglected in our country.
I didn't get to watch the England match tonight, but a lot of people are giving him a proper slating on Facebook. Is the criticism justified, or can I start handing out some abuse in his defence?
He made about 80 passes and misplaced about 5. He was always available and was all over the pitch. He lacked that extra bit of class and decisiveness. Pretty much the same as he has been every game this season.
To say he had anything less than a good game is ludicrous.
He's not a goal scorer, I thought he did a quite good job of facilitating the attack through an advanced position.
Not his fault Hodgson started Lampard and Gerrard in the middle, and Milner anywhere.
Not his fault Hodgson started Lampard and Gerrard in the middle, and Milner anywhere.
Hodgson: "Tom Cleverley was terrific through the 90 minutes. You can understand why Sir Alex Ferguson plays him so much. He came into a team alongside players such as Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard and didn't look out of place."
Lampard: "Tom Cleverley's a pleasure to play alongside. He's going to be part of the team for years to come."
Erm, Danny Mills: "Tom Cleverley was exceptional in the first half"
Those are the ones I've nicked off the BBC text anyway.
Lampard: "Tom Cleverley's a pleasure to play alongside. He's going to be part of the team for years to come."
Erm, Danny Mills: "Tom Cleverley was exceptional in the first half"
Those are the ones I've nicked off the BBC text anyway.
I must have imagined the 11 in 33 that he got at Watford then.
Fair enough, the point I was trying to make is that his strength is not finishing, he doesn't have the skill package of a striker, though he was playing in a role for England usually reserved for Rooney. He can certainly score goals, though against decent EPL and International sides I'd expect Cleverley wouldn't be given the roll of scoring his team's goals. Rather he's there to keep possession and direct the attack.
I still want him to get better, that means getting some goals, making killer passes and getting assists.
Reading those comments above though - I have just realised that he has made the step up to international level without becoming shit.
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