I was very impressed with him VS Barca. He might just help us not miss Fletcher whenever Fletcher is incapacitated. While still adding us that creative edge he brings naturally.
Tom Cleverley | 2011/12 Performances
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I agreed. After seeing that game I'm beginning to get less worried about our natural cover for Fletcher and Carrick.
What exactly is wrong with Fletch?
Update in Fletcher thread. Basically, they don't know but he's better now.
Ahh. completely missed that.
Great news
I thought he payed really well, I thought Nani stood out but Tom was very very good.
He seemed to play the easy ball most of the time, with some good controlled aggression thrown in for good measure.
Very assured performance and could very easily have been overawed by facing Iniesta, but most definately wasn't.
He seemed to play the easy ball most of the time, with some good controlled aggression thrown in for good measure.
Very assured performance and could very easily have been overawed by facing Iniesta, but most definately wasn't.
Very tidy he was in that game.
Id say we need more tidy players like him, to keep the ball. We give the ball away way too much.
Id say we need more tidy players like him, to keep the ball. We give the ball away way too much.
Good thing about him having time on the wing is that hopefully he's learnt to feel stronger running with the ball. For me, Carricks always been a bit shy when it comes to on the ball running. Sometimes you just need that strong surge from midfield to help take the pressure off the wingers and forwards to run the ball forward. It also generally puts teams on the back foot alot more.
This is why i have been suggesting we do need a dm more than an am. A decent dependable, determined, no frills battler in the middle, and then the likes of Cleverley and Giggs will not have to stay as deep, as often as they did against Barca.
Bit soon to expect Jones to take on that mantle. Banega or De Rossi would be perfect for us imo. Failing that i would be content with Scott Parker for a season or 2 till Jones is ready or Tunnicliffe comes through.
My main concerns are away from home. We were shocking last season away in the EPL. I attribute that poor form to consistently losing the initial midfield battle. We are always solid at OT, but need to improve dramatically away from home if we want to win the title again.
I firmly believe we would benefit more from a quality DM than a quality AM. Sneijder may be a great player, but he needs others to win the ball so he can do what he does best, and we don't have anyone really. So buying Sneijder may help us in Europe and the big EPL games, but imo we still need to address the reasons we performed so miserably away from OT last season.
And that was one of the best things about the game. So often under the kind of sustained pressure Barca bring to the table our players panic and unleash loose or rash passes. Cleverley was quite happy either to play it short and move into space to receive a return pass and actually run with the ball in midfield.
Cleverley's confidence to dribble the ball away from our box instead of go long in hope rather than anticipation of beating Barca's backline was one of the best things about him on Saturday night.
Decision making is the key quality of a centre midfielder. The ability to stay calm under pressure keep a clear head and make the right choice. I cannot think of any instances on Saturday when Cleverley dribbled when he should've passed, passed when he should've dribbled, went short when he should've gone long or went long when he should've gone short.
Some might argue that besides the spinning backheel to Obertan (
) Cleverley didn't do anything special he just did all the basics very well. Yet to do all the basics very well over the 90 minutes is itself special. Its what the great centre midfielders of the current era are known for e.g. you don't catch Xavi doing stepovers. Not saying Cleverley is gonna be the next Xavi but the fact he understands the role of a centre midfielder and can play it so well gives me a lot of optimism going into 2011/12.
Apotheosis said:
I actually consider Cleverley to be better when starting from deep. In the first half against Barcelona when he was playing slightly ahead of Anderson he wasn't anywhere near as influential as when he was when Ando went off and he was able to drop back a bit.
Everything I've seen of Cleverley for Wigan, England U21s and United says to me that this is a guy who likes being near the ball and does well with it at his feet. The further towards the periphery you push him the less effective he becomes and he can have games where because the ball isn't reaching him he's a passenger.
Cleverley's at his best when he is able to get on the ball and play and for that the best position is in the orthodox classic box to box centre midfield role that he took up next to Giggs in the second half against Barca. Great passer though he is attacking midfield is not the role for Tom Cleverley as his exploits at the Euro U21s showed, he has to be allowed to come looking for the ball or else you lose a lot of his impact.
IMHO we have sort of allowed the debate about midfield to get skewered by trying to fit the United 4-4-2 way of playing into the templates of other sides. United, traditionally, have never played with a water carrier and a ball player. Both players in the midfield '2' have been expected to be equally capable of getting up and down the pitch. Buying a one dimensional anchor man wouldn't suit the template that all of United's great sides under Fergie have typically employed.
I wish people would stop saying this.
Whenever I speak to anyone about Cleverley, they always make sure to mention the fact that, contrary to popular belief, he isn't a natural winger...
I am still yet to meet anyone who actually believes that he's a winger.
Neither of us have spoken to this fella then?
Sorry couldn't resist. I spent the entire Euro U21s spamming this board with posts about how desperately England needed the kind of centre midfield performance Cleverley produced against Barca on Saturday. Yet Pearce stuck with Henderson and Mancienne instead of giving Tom his chance with the result that we were outpassed by every team we played.
Better still for this vision and ability to spot talent the F.A. rewarded Pearce with a new contract and we wonder why England can't produce teams that play possession football...?
That's some insane foresight you've got, then.
During the u21 Euros, I also wanted him played through the middle, though I did have big doubts whether he could be part of a midfield 2. I thought playing in a midfield 3, as the more advanced of the trio would suit him down to the ground, as I wasn't sure whether he possessed the right attributes.
His performance against Barca went some way to changing my mind.
Fergie has hinted he actually may start this season.....
no complaints there.
no complaints there.
What happened there? You quote #07's post and it shows up as golden_blunder.
I'm so pleased that two of our academy players are being considered this season. Cleverley has bags of ability and I hope he can be utilised this season
Interesting pickup, this.
What the hell, it happened to you too?
Yep you are now Golden Blunder too! Strange glitch
He's infiltrating every single thread.
Arrrgh, now IM GB, but not when I quote myself... strange
Yeah I know. I also picked Chicharito as the one to watch in the last close season.
On a serious note though I just think that while Cleverley is very gifted unless he's in a position to get on the ball its easy to take him out of the game. When in possession he's always likely to do something positive but as an attacking midfielder you're very dependent upon what goes on behind you. If you make Cleverley stay advanced and whats going on behind him isn't hot he'll get lost. He hasn't got enough presence to frighten defenders without the ball, he's not got enough physical power to make a nuisance of himself for defenders playing with back to goal, he hasn't got the pace to accelerate away from defenders onto through balls. Thats why I thought he would be better suited to playing in the heart of midfield where the ball would find its way to him more easily or he could go hunting for it without his team losing its shape.
Plus Cleverley with his experience as a defender coming up through the United ranks has both the defensive positioning and ability needed to operate in the middle of the engine room and allied with his very good on the ball composure, decision making, passing and the ability to do something different like the goal he bagged against the MLS All stars in 2010 I've thought for some time he had the makings of a very good old fashioned centre mid. I was dissapointed he went on loan to Wigan after last year's US tour cos I thought with the way our midfield looked before the start of 2010/11 he could've certainly made his mark and I've got no doubts this year Cleverley will make up for lost time.
Just wait till the resident conspiracy theorists see this! GB is upto something...
Perhaps its a question of perspective, perhaps we're saying the same thing in a different way? Certainly however some of the players you mention are one dimensional when placed alongside the United names you've listed.
The notable thing about Carrick is that of all of them he is undoubtedly the most defensive. It was the one thing that was picked up repeatedly in his first few years at the club that he didn't get forward very much or score goals. This is not something you can say about Ince, Keane, Butt or even Hargreaves who had a lovely curling shot and free kick.
The United "2" is typically formed of two box-to-box midfielders or at least it has been during our most successful periods under Sir Alex. What you said in your first paragraph envisions Cleverley playing ahead of a "2" in other words in a "3" which is atypical of Sir Alex's teams and has not been a feature on this pre-season which good reason too: Its not needed.
Cleverley has shown he is more than capable of playing the box-to-box midfield role that Sir Alex has been seeking a player for. He makes interceptions, he keeps the ball moving, he makes the right choices, he dribbles well, he creates chances. Why is there a need to move him out of a position where he has all the gifts needed to excel?
It is like when the young Paul Scholes was moved from second striker back into the midfield. When Scholesy came into the senior side it was as a forward. Could he have stayed there? Of course. In 2002/03 he did play in the hole behind Ruud. However, the manager saw that Scholes could offer more played deeper in the midfield and I think on balance his career illustrates that Sir Alex was right about that.
Likewise with Cleverley. Yes, he probably could play as an attacking midfielder but why make his impact on the game wholly dependent upon others when he seems more than able to step up and be the man to be counted in the engine room? We already have Rooney to dominate the space between the lines and he is certainly the best at United in doing that. Cleverley's future lies in that midfield role that Scholesy used to do for us up until age caught up with him. He is more than capable of running a game as he showed in the second half against Barca on Saturday. Why take the chance to do so away from him?
Perhaps its a question of perspective, perhaps we're saying the same thing in a different way? Certainly however some of the players you mention are one dimensional when placed alongside the United names you've listed.
The notable thing about Carrick is that of all of them he is undoubtedly the most defensive. It was the one thing that was picked up repeatedly in his first few years at the club that he didn't get forward very much or score goals. This is not something you can say about Ince, Keane, Butt or even Hargreaves who had a lovely curling shot and free kick.
The United "2" is typically formed of two box-to-box midfielders or at least it has been during our most successful periods under Sir Alex. What you said in your first paragraph envisions Cleverley playing ahead of a "2" in other words in a "3" which is atypical of Sir Alex's teams and has not been a feature on this pre-season which good reason too: Its not needed.
Cleverley has shown he is more than capable of playing the box-to-box midfield role that Sir Alex has been seeking a player for. He makes interceptions, he keeps the ball moving, he makes the right choices, he dribbles well, he creates chances. Why is there a need to move him out of a position where he has all the gifts needed to excel?
It is like when the young Paul Scholes was moved from second striker back into the midfield. When Scholesy came into the senior side it was as a forward. Could he have stayed there? Of course. In 2002/03 he did play in the hole behind Ruud. However, the manager saw that Scholes could offer more played deeper in the midfield and I think on balance his career illustrates that Sir Alex was right about that.
Likewise with Cleverley. Yes, he probably could play as an attacking midfielder but why make his impact on the game wholly dependent upon others when he seems more than able to step up and be the man to be counted in the engine room? We already have Rooney to dominate the space between the lines and he is certainly the best at United in doing that. Cleverley's future lies in that midfield role that Scholesy used to do for us up until age caught up with him. He is more than capable of running a game as he showed in the second half against Barca on Saturday. Why take the chance to do so away from him?
Again in principle i agree with the plausibility of your claim, but as a note of caution i think it is important to keep some perspective. Yes TC did perform particularly well on the night, however it was only one game and it has to be said that considering it was only a friendly, Pep could be forgiven for not knowing too much about TC or what he could do.
If we were to meet again in a more competitive situation i doubt Pep would not allocate a little more attention to negating TC's effectiveness.
I still believe that while Cleverley may be able to do the job as effectively as you propose, he would probably still not be as effective as someone who specialises in that area. We have actually no ball winner whatsoever, and it is a little unfair to expect someone at TC's stage of development, to play a box to box role without the security of a more naturally defensive player alongside him.
This does not mean a water carrier. More specifically someone who can contribute both in attack and defence but is predominantly a dm. Whatever you may claim about TC he is still widely acknowledged as more of an attacking player than a defensive one as was Scholes and therefore that is where his training and natural instincts lie. Not saying he cannot help out defensively but he still should be allowed to operate in areas where he can do ther most damage.
I suppose in effect i want someone more mobile and with more energy and determination than Carrick, then i would feel much more comfortable with whoever was partnered with the hypothetical new recruit.
I'm Golden Blunder.
Happened to me too. That last post i replied too was from 07, yet it came up with my name!
Fantastic tonight so far.
Just hope he can keep this kind of form in the PL against bigger teams. Could see him feature in a 3 men midfield at the beginning
Can he play in two-man midfield then?
He did fine in a 2 man midfield against Barcelona and their three man midfield, even in a "friendly" (and they didn't have dive and foul for a non-competitive fixture!), is as good as anyone else's. I'd be happy to see him form the middle '2' with someone in the 4-4-1-1 formation that Fergie employed towards the end of last season. His defensive positioning, stamina and intelligence make him more than capable of it.
He must be like Agent Smith assimilating members of the caf.
...and so is my wife.
He was very good last pre-season as well, but then didn't get a sniff at the beginning and was then loaned.
Hopefully Fergie will stay true to what he said and he'll get a chance.
Hopefully Fergie will stay true to what he said and he'll get a chance.
He got a couple of nice goals last pre-season but he's been far more mature and rounded this time.
Loaning him out again would make literally no sense in our current position, even more so if Gibson eventually leaves. He will play.
evolution is almost complete
I beg to differ.
He scored goals this time 1 year ago in pre-season, but his overall game was not what it is this season.
He is a genuine talent and should be recognised this season. Im looking forward to seeing him get games in the PL this season.
He is a genuine talent and should be recognised this season. Im looking forward to seeing him get games in the PL this season.
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