Toaster Toes Timo Werner | Tottenham Player

roonster09 said:
Again you are making the same mistake. Just because they were closer than ManUtd doesn't mean they were title challengers. The pressure of playing for ManUtd and Leipzig is not comparable, no matter how much mental gymnastics we see in this thread.

Last season we were in race for Top 4 till last 3-4 games, before that we were 2nd and FA Cup finals, before that we won Europa league, before that we missed top 4 on goal difference.

It's like saying playing for Molde or Rosenberg or Salzburg has more pressure than Chelsea as they were involved in more title races, yes there is difference between Bundesliga and Norway league and that's the point I'm making.
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I guess I fundamentally disagree with this Arsenal-esque mentality - especially given the quality of the Bundesliga surely playing for the trophy is more significant than getting the boobie prize for finishing top 4. Yes there is pressure on the players to perform and reach the top 4 but this doesn't compare to a title race.

Also I'm not suggesting that they were contenders every year, but given that they led the league for several weeks this past year you'd have to be disingenuous to suggest they weren't contenders. Obviously they've fallen off over the subsequent months but that is still a more significant title challenge than United have mounted over the past four years.
 
Zehner said:
Yeah he's definitely a unique striker. He can play on the wing since he's one of the best players out there when it comes to getting behind the defensive line but he can also play as a lone striker. He will interpret the role very dynamically, though, and make lots of runs on the wings etc. He's physically strong but not really a fox in the box type of player. His finishing can be off. He's one of those players that occasionally miss some chances but keep on working until they finally get their goal.

What's special about him, IMO, is his work ethic. Before Brandt had his final breakthrough for us, he often seemed talented but a bit lethargic. I remember a match against RBL in which Werner, as a striker, was still pressing like a maniac in extra time and made a sprint across the whole field to take the ball of Brandt and it was kind of symbolic for their development at that point. This pressing capability is also very interesting in transitional moments. Nowadays the 4-4-2 is the most popular defensive formation for pressing teams which suits Werner very well. He's naturally more of a second striker type and since they press in a 4-4-2, that makes life easier for him if they attack immediately after winning the ball.

I think mentality-wise, he offers almost everything. He even had a very rough time in Germany shortly after he moved to Leipzig (very unpopular club amongst German ultras/die-hard fans). Dived against Schalke which resulted in a goal and afterwards denied it in an interview. They created a song in which they called him a Hurenso*n (son of a b*tch) and basically the whole nation sung it. It became so popular that a German singer adapted it and turned it into a Ballermann hit. Can't remember another German player at that age getting so much stick but it didn't really affect his performances too much and he definitely came back stronger than ever.
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Interesting read. Cheers.
 
He'sRaldo said:
With regards to Werner's numbers, one needs to be wary of players from teams like Leipzig, where the whole footballing project is so structured and organized to be very efficient. Most of the players and staff in the club will have been handpicked to fill specific roles, which may not translate very well in a broader sense. I think this has been true of a lot of teams in Germany where they don't have the most money so have to make full use of the resources they do have such as scouting, youth development, and coaching.

In any case, he's a good player who has already undergone a good development, so I won't be surprised to see him do well, provided Chelsea has the same "more than sum of it's parts" mindset. If not, he could very well struggle with the league winning expectations. The PL has recently been more of a "money-splashing" league than a developmental league, so there can be a lot of adaptation involved for some players.
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Very good and insightful post. I think that's indeed a very good assessment of why some Bundesliga exports struggled in the past, especially the former Dortmund/Klopp gang like Sahin or Kagawa. My perception is that the Bundesliga on average is far more advanced tactically than the EPL with Liverpool and City being the most noteworthy exceptions. Even smaller teams sometimes apply very ambitious tactics and have their players fulfill very specific roles which often utilize their strengths and hide their weaknesses.
 
Posh Red said:
I guess next season, providing both remain relatively fit, we will get a much better idea of how they stack up. For what it’s worth I actually think both teams are in a fairly even situation right now, so we should be able to draw a decent comparison.
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Agreed! And this was my original point before this whole thread got derailed - our two squads are relatively even, and it's folly to suggest that one is significantly better than the other.
 
Why weren't Bayern in for him? Hellbent on Sané? He's supposed to be lightning quick. Wonder how he'll fair in a league where limited space is given.
 
roonster09 said:
He won't hit those big numbers but can see him settling well. Him and Pulisic should add so much more to their attack with their directness.
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Yeah Pulisic is another very dynamic player I expect to kick on next season if he's fortunate. If Werner plays as a left sided striker then a Werner-Pulisic left sided combination would end up being hard to contain.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
I guess I fundamentally disagree with this Arsenal-esque mentality - especially given the quality of the Bundesliga surely playing for the trophy is more significant than getting the boobie prize for finishing top 4. Yes there is pressure on the players to perform and reach the top 4 but this doesn't compare to a title race.

Also I'm not suggesting that they were contenders every year, but given that they led the league for several weeks this past year you'd have to be disingenuous to suggest they weren't contenders. Obviously they've fallen off over the subsequent months but that is still a more significant title challenge than United have mounted over the past four years.
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Dude they were never in title race except this season, not once. They were competing for top 4 just like ManUtd did.

Amazing how people twist everything to make a point. Saying playing for Leipzig has more pressure than ManUtd should be worse than any post saying Fred and Martial would walk into combined 11.

If Chelsea didn't sign Werner there is no way you would have said that too.

So you agree playing for Molde, Salzburg, Rosenberg has more pressure than playing for Chelsea?
 
Dancfc said:
Almost certainly.
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Be interesting to see how everyone else fits in given I imagine you guys will stick to 4231.
Wonder what Frank thinks is your best starting 11 And where do Mount,Gilmour cho and the likes fit in.

Flappy
Someguy Zumba Martials bitch Somedude
Kante Kovacic
Ziyech Mount. Werner
Tammy​
 
Andersons Dietician said:
Be interesting to see how everyone else fits in given I imagine you guys will stick to 4231.
Wonder what Frank thinks is your best starting 11 And where do Mount,Gilmour cho and the likes fit in.

Flappy
Someguy Zumba Martials bitch Somedude
Kante Kovacic
Ziyech Mount. Werner
Tammy​
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There’s a sixty million euro winger missing
 
Think he’ll do well. Lot of change at Chelsea, wouldn’t be surprised if they cash in on Kante.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
Be interesting to see how everyone else fits in given I imagine you guys will stick to 4231.
Wonder what Frank thinks is your best starting 11 And where do Mount,Gilmour cho and the likes fit in.

Flappy
Someguy Zumba Martials bitch Somedude
Kante Kovacic
Ziyech Mount. Werner
Tammy​
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The heavy schedule of the next few years (catching up from this lockdown) will lead to a lot of rotation, with the versatility of the players we should have enough to keep players happy.
Jorginho regista
Gilmour can play register and CM.
Ziyech CM and RW.
Kova CM and at a push emergency regista
Mount CM and wings
Pulisic and Hudson Odoi both wings
Werner LW and ST
Potentially Gallagher will return who can play anywhere across the midfield.
Then Tammy ST.

I personally think Kante will be sold, he's not suited to this system (he could potentially be past his best full stop) as an undisputed starter and can't have a player of his value as a horse's for courses player.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
On the whole, Man Utd obviously. But towards the tail end of the past four or so seasons where Man Utd have little to play for and RBL are playing to potentially win the league, the pendulum swings towards RBL.
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:lol:
 
Harry Harries said:
Why weren't Bayern in for him? Hellbent on Sané? He's supposed to be lightning quick. Wonder how he'll fair in a league where limited space is given.
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Bayern noticed that Werner needs a lot of space to operate and not very good in tight spaces also his close control was lacking. 98% of teams Bayern play will bunker against them so the space to run wont be there
 
He'sRaldo said:
Yeah Pulisic is another very dynamic player I expect to kick on next season if he's fortunate. If Werner plays as a left sided striker then a Werner-Pulisic left sided combination would end up being hard to contain.
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Pulisic was actually one of our most decisive players in the period between winning his spot in the team, and suffering an injury - 12 goals + assists in 23 games, % in which he was just a late substitute.
 
kaiser1 said:
Bayern noticed that Werner needs a lot of space to operate and not very good in tight spaces also his close control was lacking. 98% of teams Bayern play will bunker against them so the space to run wont be there
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I am now incredibly excited about the prospect of him on the left coming up against Wan-Bissaka. What a match up that'll be.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
2 matches to go, but the situation was somewhat complicated by a release clause in Werner's contract that had an expiry date (reported in some places as being 15 June, in others as 15 July), so Chelsea pushed for the deal early to avoid having to negotiate with Leipzig. Also apparently Werner was all but signed by Bayern to the point where he said goodbye to his teammates only for them to pull out at the eleventh hour, so his stated preference was to tie up any deal quickly. Suspect he wants to settle in and hit the ground running - this is likely why he is electing to sit out the remainder of the CL so as to link up with Chelsea ASAP.
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Thanks, I was wondering how it had played out as it has, what if Leipzig end up winning the CL though, he'll miss out on all of that.
 
Chelsea always get their business done fast and aggressive. Too aggressive sometimes as the transfer ban has shown. I like it though. All this messing around. We’ve been on about sancho for what 2 summers now and it’s still a maybe. It’s a hard slog being a utd fan when it comes to following transfer rumours.
 
Ali Dia said:
Chelsea always get their business done fast and aggressive. Too aggressive sometimes as the transfer ban has shown. I like it though. All this messing around. We’ve been on about sancho for what 2 summers now and it’s still a maybe. It’s a hard slog being a utd fan when it comes to following transfer rumours.
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That's not really fair, though. Loads of rumours to do with United are pedalled by the press to get clicks, or by greedy agents using our name to get their players fat new contracts. You don't have to follow United transfer gossip, but if you decide to the best course of action is to take it all with a pinch of salt.
 
Harry Harries said:
That's not really fair, though. Loads of rumours to do with United are pedalled by the press to get clicks, or by greedy agents using our name to get their players fat new contracts. You don't have to follow United transfer gossip, but if you decide to the best course of action is to take it all with a pinch of salt.
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It's also not always true for Chelsea. We've had some summers where the club has been extremely efficient, so that's maybe where this reputation comes from, but there are also many other windows we're labouring from one target to the next eventually settling for poor alternatives.
 
De gea
AWB - Maguire - Rudiger - Chilwell (soon)
Kante - Pogba
Sancho (soon) - Bruno - Rashford
Werner/Martial​

The discussion over Fred vs Kovacic is laughable, Pogba is far superior to both of them.

With transfers rumored: United 7.5 vs Chelsea 3.5
Without transfers rumored (Ziyech for Sancho, left-back up in the air): United 7 vs Chelsea 4
That's just numbers and it doesn't take into account how Kante counts for 2 midfielders or how bad Rudiger and Maguire's respective CB partners are.

The squads overall are fairly similar I think, but I also believe that there is a much bigger drop in quality for United if we get injuries.

I think Werner is a great buy for Chelsea. Gives them another good player who is young and can both contribute now and improve for the future.
 
Ødegaard said:
De gea
AWB - Maguire - Rudiger - Chilwell (soon)
Kante - Pogba
Sancho (soon) - Bruno - Rashford
Werner/Martial​

The discussion over Fred vs Kovacic is laughable, Pogba is far superior to both of them.

With transfers rumored: United 7.5 vs Chelsea 3.5
Without transfers rumored (Ziyech for Sancho, left-back up in the air): United 7 vs Chelsea 4
That's just numbers and it doesn't take into account how Kante counts for 2 midfielders or how bad/ Rudiger and Maguire's respective CB partners are.

The squads overall are fairly similar I think, but I also believe that there is a much bigger drop in quality for United if we get injuries.

I think Werner is a great buy for Chelsea. Gives them another good player who is young and can both contribute now and improve for the future.
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Disagree on the midfield.

We will have to see how Pogba and Bruno do together first, we've been there before with two attack minded players playing together (Lampard and Gerrard prime examples), more often than not it turns out better on paper than in practice. Until there's consistent proof they can play together I wouldn't have them both in United's Xl let alone a combined United/Chelsea one.

I wouldn't have present day Kante in the side either, as much as I love him he's living of reputation currently and Kova has been a lot better this campaign.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
Rashford and Martial are beginning to deliver on that potential this season. Rashford in particular was amongst the best forwards in the league, not based on potential but based on real performances. It’s relatively simple for me, who would make ms more fearful as an opponent and I’d fear Martial and Rashford far more than Werner currently.
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But this belief isn't actually based on anything other than you being a united fan. Werner on a global level is easily seen as dangerous.
 
Dancfc said:
Disagree on the midfield.

We will have to see how Pogba and Bruno do together first, we've been there before with two attack minded players playing together (Lampard and Gerrard prime examples), more often than not it turns out better on paper than in practice. Until there's consistent proof they can play together I wouldn't have them both in United's Xl let alone a combined United/Chelsea one.Jo

I wouldn't have present day Kante in the side either, as much as I love him he's living of reputation currently and Kova has been a lot better this campaign.
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Thats literally the WC winning midfield and doesnt effect Bruno as a 10
 
Dancfc said:
Disagree on the midfield.

We will have to see how Pogba and Bruno do together first, we've been there before with two attack minded players playing together (Lampard and Gerrard prime examples), more often than not it turns out better on paper than in practice. Until there's consistent proof they can play together I wouldn't have them both in United's Xl let alone a combined United/Chelsea one.

I wouldn't have present day Kante in the side either, as much as I love him he's living of reputation currently and Kova has been a lot better this campaign.
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Why do we have to see them, but not Werner/Ziyech?
Why do we pair Rudiger and Maguire together without having seen them play together? Why would you have Kovacic with Pogba or Bruno if you haven't seen him play with either? At least Kante has shown he can play with Pogba, going by your comment.

But if you want Kovacic instead of Kante then I'm not going to argue with you on that, but Pogba and Bruno are far better individually than any other alternatives.
For me, these combined 11s it is about picking the best players from each team and putting them up against the counterparts from the other team and see who you rate higher.
 
roonster09 said:
Dude they were never in title race except this season, not once. They were competing for top 4 just like ManUtd did.

Amazing how people twist everything to make a point. Saying playing for Leipzig has more pressure than ManUtd should be worse than any post saying Fred and Martial would walk into combined 11.

If Chelsea didn't sign Werner there is no way you would have said that too.

So you agree playing for Molde, Salzburg, Rosenberg has more pressure than playing for Chelsea?
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Again, I walked back that initial post which I agree was OTT.

My point was in response to someone saying that Martial has been under far more pressure for the last four seasons than Werner, which I find a bit absurd as over the past four years only one of the two has been involved in a genuine title race. Furthermore, only one of the two is in serious contention to start for their national side - I guess my point is excusing Martial's production which is ~3x worse than Werner's on the basis of "pressure" is nonsense.
 
cyberman said:
Thats literally the WC winning midfield and doesnt effect Bruno as a 10
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Except that they also had Matuidi playing further up on the left and dropping into midfield to make a 3 any time France lost possession. It's not as if they were playing a dedicated double pivot.
 
Orc said:
Don't bother, mate. I had this argument with them a couple of weeks ago. After complaining for about 80% of the season about how shocking their squad is, ever since Fernandes came in they now have a team of monsters.
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Good enough to wipe the floor with your little gremlins this season though. Amirite?
 
Ødegaard said:
Why do we have to see them, but not Werner/Ziyech?
Why do we pair Rudiger and Maguire together without having seen them play together? Why would you have Kovacic with Pogba or Bruno if you haven't seen him play with either? At least Kante has shown he can play with Pogba, going by your comment.

But if you want Kovacic instead of Kante then I'm not going to argue with you on that, but Pogba and Bruno are far better individually than any other alternatives.
For me, these combined 11s it is about picking the best players from each team and putting them up against the counterparts from the other team and see who you rate higher.
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I mean because Werner and Ziyech have been far better in recent seasons than Pogba? And again, Pogba is great in a 3 man midfield but Kovacic is obviously the better option in a two man midfield. Picking a best XI should be at least somewhat informed by the formation used, unless your name is Garth Crooks
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
I mean because Werner and Ziyech have been far better in recent seasons than Pogba? And again, Pogba is great in a 3 man midfield but Kovacic is obviously the better option in a two man midfield. Picking a best XI should be at least somewhat informed by the formation used, unless your name is Garth Crooks
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No. You make the formation to fit the best team you can field. That amount of attacking power forces the other team to defend more, so one main-defender in midfield is enough, you don't need Kante & Kovacic in that setup.
Bruno as a #10 also seems to be covering a lot of ground, so it is essentially a midfield 3.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Except that they also had Matuidi playing further up on the left and dropping into midfield to make a 3 any time France lost possession. It's not as if they were playing a dedicated double pivot.
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Matuidi was marauding forward, he had little impact on Pogba and Kante?
Bruno plays Matuidis role then since he has played as an 8 before. Either way thats a WC winning midfield that wouldnt get broken up and is the only proven commodity in this entire make believe scenario for feck sake!
Also Werner doesnt even play through the middle yet its a world besting midifield that people arent sure of?
Its absurd.
 
Dancfc said:
Because your system suits playing teams better than you, especially possession based ones. That's why you've done well against us and City but are at the same time quickly becoming a routine three points for the worst Arsenal side for decades.


So have we
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A routine three points for arsenal? What you on about?
 
Harry Harries said:
That's not really fair, though. Loads of rumours to do with United are pedalled by the press to get clicks, or by greedy agents using our name to get their players fat new contracts. You don't have to follow United transfer gossip, but if you decide to the best course of action is to take it all with a pinch of salt.
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fair enough but you’d have to agree that plenty of our signings take longer than other clubs?a few Off the top of my head. Maguire a year and then protracted over the second summer and we ended up paying the quoted price. Bruno- 6 months later after a whole summers rumours and a player we really could have done with instead of starting the season with Andreas and Jesse. Fairly sure Sporting have since said he actually would have been cheaper to buy in the summer. Having to go for Ighalo on the final day. We continually act like it’s some big surprise that the window is opening and closing. We should have 80% of this stuff done during the season and signEd off at the next opportunity. give the player as much time as possible to settle in and most importantly efficiently reinforce the weak areas in the team. All this dragging stuff out, seemingly only being able to do one negotiation at a time when we’ve the whole season to plan. We are lucky oles signings have been good but don’t forget this place and the fanbase was in full revolt mode until Bruno was brought in. It probably could have been avoided if they’d at least been right there at the start of the window and who knows we’d probably be sitting pretty in the top 4 currently. I don’t know if it’s because of shareholders or our owners or the negotiating team or all of the above but they definitely give the impression they work at a very slow place. The price for sancho last year was 120 and it’s 120 again covid or not and we could really have done with him in the team for this season too. We either pay that or move onto a new more affordable target. We can’t neglect the RW for yet another summer, or can we?
 
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The usual bollocks being spouted here it seems by our resident Chelsea bunch after they got sucked in by @Buster15.

The teams are very similar as per the league table. United have been pretty comfortable in all the head to head though but I'm happy to admit there's some parity between the two.

1) City/Liverpool
2) Chelsea/United
3) Arsenal/Spurs.

As for a combined XI I'm pretty baffled to see people omitting Pogba because he's not played with Bruno yet but happy to put Ziyech and Werner in when they haven't even played a game in the PL yet. Totally laughable and very silly.

Anyway I'd say a combined XI would be pretty even. You'd have De Gea, AWB, Maguire, Bruno, Pogba, Rashford though without a doubt which means United nick it 6/5. You can argue about the rest but it's a pretty irrelevant discussion and not for this thread.
 
TheReligion said:
Have your seen yours against us this season?

It's all a bit pointless right
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Exactly, I only raised your record against Arsenal because of someone using yours against us as bonafide proof you're miles better.
 
mancan92 said:
But this belief isn't actually based on anything other than you being a united fan. Werner on a global level is easily seen as dangerous.
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I actually don’t think so. Rashford is a nightmare for defenders with his pace and dribbling.
 
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