To the posters saying Mourinho is done

Pogue Mahone said:
I don't think Mourinho has ever taken over at a club as far off the pace as us last season.

In his second stint at Chelsea they had previously finished third, made the semi-finals of both domestic cup competitions and won the Europa league. Even when he first took over at Chelsea, people forget that they were actually coming off the back of a decent season, despite Ranieri being sacked; finishing second in the league and making CL semi-finals. Similar story at Inter (champions) and Madrid (2nd) when he joined them.

United have been fecking floundering ever since Fergie left. Van Gaal also poisoned the chalice even further by passing on the shitfest that is Thursday night Europa league football. A factor that helped kill off his own United career, in his second season in charge.

All in all, there's load of good reasons for Mourinho to take a little longer than usual to have a positive impact at United. As per my previous post, the fact he's basically signed an entire new spine for the team is emblematic of the scale of task he's facing here. So I don't think we should be too concerned that we're not seeing a major improvement after his first dozen or so games in charge.
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When Jose took over Chelsea, they had been 14 points off the top the previous season. we just came 15 points off the top playing negative tactics and also won a cup. Bar not making CL, many believe this was an ok season. We didn't come 10th like Chelsea did who have miraculously improved, with virtually the same players.

There is no reason for Jose to take the team who finished joint 4th and have them fall behind everyone else. Especially after securing his chief targets so early and having them preseason.
 
Stacks said:
When Jose took over Chelsea, they had been 14 points off the top the previous season. we just came 15 points off the top playing negative tactics and also won a cup. Bar not making CL, many believe this was an ok season. We didn't come 10th like Chelsea did who have miraculously improved, with virtually the same players.

There is no reason for Jose to take the team who finished joint 4th and have them fall behind everyone else. Especially after securing his chief targets so early and having them preseason.
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There's every reason for us having a slow start. At least two of them in the post you quoted.

Who the hell thinks last season was "ok" anyway? We didn't just finish 15 points off the top. We finished 15 points behind Leicester fecking City! The fact other big teams had terrible seasons doesn't make ours any less awful. The opposite is true, in fact.
 
I keep forgetting that we are only 6 points from the top. Some posters are talking like we're fighting relegation at the moment.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
There's every reason for us having a slow start. At least two of them in the post you quoted.

Who the hell thinks last season was "ok" anyway? We didn't just finish 15 points off the top. We finished 15 points behind Leicester fecking City!
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No one thinks last season was ok. That's why people were hoping to see some immediate sign of improvement.
 
VP89 said:
I keep forgetting that we are only 6 points from the top. Some posters are talking like we're fighting relegation at the moment.
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It's really the response from the drubbing in the weekend. We still haven't had a good 90 minutes of football yet this season either in my opinion. Even the Leicester game, we only really had a great 15 minutes. The 2nd half was the same old tumescent shit. Let's hope we begin to see an improvement in performance levels soon but I think it will be a while yet.
 
Tyrion said:
Mourinho hasn't done well but to say he's 'done' is ridiculous.

His previous 3 jobs saw him take Inter to the first Italian treble, beating one of the best club teams ever in the process, break a La Liga record for points won at Real Madrid and win the Premier League while being a mile ahead of the competition.

His failures were dressing room problems at Real Madrid (which happens to everyone who manages there), failing to make Real Madrid consistently better than possibly the best team of all time within 3 years of arriving (hardly an embarrassing failure imo) and last season's bizarre disaster.

The only warning sign I see there is his behaviour last season. Thankfully, he hasn't been so undisciplined so far this season. He might have done well but to call his career over after a bad 18 months is unbelievably premature and pessimistic.
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His last year in Madrid was the worst of his career until Chelsea. A whopping 15 points behind Barcelona. That wasn't even competitive with the money and players they spent/signed. If we don't win the title this year (which we may well not), that is 1 title in the last 5 seasons. To me looks like a downward trend from his previous position of strength. He used to be a 5 in 7 kinda guy. Obviously no one stays at the top forever. This does not mean he is done, I just hope he can still compete for titles.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
There's every reason for us having a slow start. At least two of them in the post you quoted.

Who the hell thinks last season was "ok" anyway? We didn't just finish 15 points off the top. We finished 15 points behind Leicester fecking City! The fact other big teams had terrible seasons doesn't make ours any less awful. The opposite is true, in fact.
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rocks13 said:
No one thinks last season was ok. That's why people were hoping to see some immediate sign of improvement.
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The same rules apply to all the clubs though. We all came behind Leicester which means all the managers had work to do this season. Le Table suggests we were 5 behind Arsenal, 4 behind Spurs, level with City. Why is it that all the managers didn't have major work to be done as we all finished with a similar points tally? Liverpool were actually 6 points behind us Chelsea were 16 points
1 Leicester City (C) +32 81
2 Arsenal +29 71
3 Tottenham Hotspur +34 70
4 Manchester City +30 66
5 Manchester United +14 66

As far as I am concerned, every manager had a job to do. There is still time, but no one job is particularly harder. Note that Chelsea also got a new manager in. We didn't finish in a relegation battle. We were actually in contention for CL spot but flopped against West Ham remember? We actually came close to the pack with the most negative, cowardly coach I have seen at O.T.
 
One of the things people who were against the appointment had thrown back at us was that, as he'd been out of work for a while, he'd have seen our second half of last season and know where the issues were. This was, in their view, backed up by the majority of the signings being done early.

Now we're asking too much for him to even look like he's in the process of fixing last season's issues.
 
Stacks said:
The same rules apply to all the clubs though. We all came behind Leicester which means all the managers had work to do this season. Le Table suggests we were 5 behind Arsenal, 4 behind Spurs, level with City. Why is it that all the managers didn't have major work to be done as we all finished with a similar points tally? Liverpool were actually 6 points behind us Chelsea were 16 points
1 Leicester City (C) +32 81
2 Arsenal +29 71
3 Tottenham Hotspur +34 70
4 Manchester City +30 66
5 Manchester United +14 66

As far as I am concerned, every manager had a job to do. There is still time, but no one job is particularly harder. Note that Chelsea also got a new manager in. We didn't finish in a relegation battle. We were actually in contention for CL spot but flopped against West Ham remember? We actually came close to the pack with the most negative, cowardly coach I have seen at O.T.
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Spurs had decent season and would be expected to kick on from there, as they continue to improve under their current manager.
City clearly punched well below their weight for a large part of last season, from the moment it became obvious Pellegrini was a dead man walking. They still had an excellent squad, though, clearly capable of challenging for the league without major surgery.
Liverpool got a new manager half way through the year. Took them a few months (shock, horror) to improve upon the results they were getting with their previous (sacked) manager but were on the up by the end of the season.
Arsenal are Arsenal. Same shit every season. Nuff said really.
The only anomaly is Chelsea but they went into last season as champions and still have all their most important players from that season. So didn't need anything like the major surgery we obviously require.

Throw into the mix the massive pain in the hole of Europa league football (as compared to Chelsea, who get a full week off between games) and it's really not hard to see why we're off the pace so far, compared to all the clubs I just mentioned.
 
Dobba said:
One of the things people who were against the appointment had thrown back at us was that, as he'd been out of work for a while, he'd have seen our second half of last season and know where the issues were. This was, in their view, backed up by the majority of the signings being done early.

Now we're asking too much for him to even look like he's in the process of fixing last season's issues.
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Fecking hell. He's signed a new central midfielder, a new central defender and a new striker. All of whom have started more or less every single game this season. If that isn't all the evidence you need of him identifying and trying to fix our issues, what more do you want?

Obviously, Ibra and Pogba have underwhelmed so far, which been discussed to death (along with the white elephant in the room) and is a huge factor in us sitting where we are in the league but it's fairly fecking obvious that steps have been taken to fix what was evidently broken last season (and, arguably, for the last three seasons)
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Spurs had decent season and would be expected to kick on from there, as they continue to improve under their current manager.
City clearly punched well below their weight for a large part of last season, from the moment it became obvious Pellegrini was a dead man walking. They still had an excellent squad, though, clearly capable of challenging for the league without major surgery.
Liverpool got a new manager half way through the year. Took them a few months (shock, horror) to improve upon the results they were getting with their previous (sacked) manager but were on the up by the end of the season.
Arsenal are Arsenal. Same shit every season. Nuff said really.
The only anomaly is Chelsea but they went into last season as champions and still have all their most important players from that season. So didn't need anything like the major surgery we obviously require.

Throw into the mix the massive pain in the hole of Europa league football (as compared to Chelsea, who get a full week off between games) and it's really not hard to see why we're off the pace compared to all the clubs I just mentioned.
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Add in the factor that we really are not a very good football team at this time (in comparison to the teams that will most likely fight it out for the title).
 
I think its a bit misleading to suggest that because we finished on level points with City that means our problems going into this season were the same size. They lost their focus towards the end with the change of manager, they coasted at the end and still finished ahead of us. And i dont think the change from Pellegrini to Guardiola is as big as the change from Van Gaal to Mourinho, in terms of style of play.

Klopp had a very hard job at Liverpool but he is half a season further along with them than Mourinho is.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Fecking hell. He's signed a new central midfielder, a new central defender and a new striker. All of whom have started more or less every single game this season. If that isn't all the evidence you need of him identifying and trying to fix our issues, what more do you want?

Obviously, the Ibra and Pogba stuff has been discussed to death (along with the white elephant in the room) but it's fairly fecking obvious that steps have been taken to fix what was evidently broken last season (and, arguably, for the last three seasons)
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I personally saw the biggest issues with last season being little to no pace in attack, the fact attacking was (at best) the second priority of the team and that the squad lacked leaders, particularly in midfield.

I don't see any improvement in any of those areas. It could be argued that the first two have become bigger issues this season.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Spurs had decent season and would be expected to kick on from there, as they continue to improve under their current manager.
City clearly punched well below their weight for a large part of last season, from the moment it became obvious Pellegrini was a dead man walking. They still had an excellent squad, though, clearly capable of challenging for the league without major surgery.
Liverpool got a new manager half way through the year. Took them a few months (shock, horror) to improve upon the results they were getting with their previous (sacked) manager but were on the up by the end of the season.
Arsenal are Arsenal. Same shit every season. Nuff said really.
The only anomaly is Chelsea but they went into last season as champions and still have all their most important players from that season. So didn't need anything like the major surgery we obviously require.

Throw into the mix the massive pain in the hole of Europa league football (as compared to
Chelsea, who get a full week off between games) and it's really not hard to see why we're off the pace so far, compared to all the clubs I just mentioned.
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They only came 4 points above us and we underperformed considering we ha done 6 points ahead of them the year before. Our manager also went insane.

I wouldn't say Liverpool were on the up, they won 1 in last 5 league games.

We have finished 5 points behind Arsenal over the last 2 seasons. They should not leave us behind. Either they are just shite, or our squad can't be that awful and we just don't make the most out of it.

Many of Chelsea's defenders had past their prime. Also it was Jose himself who had the squad underperforming. It is similar situation that LVG took over.

I still don't understand how we need major surgery and no one else does. We didn't get blown out of the water by neither Spurs nor Arsenal if you look at points tally. We also won silverware. we finished above Chelsea and Liverpool. No way did Jose come into the worst of all situations. It just isn't justified to me. Most anticipated we would be in a title race and Liverpool wouldn't. They have barely improved their team from the Brenton days. certainly none of these sides have 2 players on the Balon D'or shortlist bar Pep and Jose.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Spurs had decent season and would be expected to kick on from there, as they continue to improve under their current manager.
City clearly punched well below their weight for a large part of last season, from the moment it became obvious Pellegrini was a dead man walking. They still had an excellent squad, though, clearly capable of challenging for the league without major surgery.
Liverpool got a new manager half way through the year. Took them a few months (shock, horror) to improve upon the results they were getting with their previous (sacked) manager but were on the up by the end of the season.
Arsenal are Arsenal. Same shit every season. Nuff said really.
The only anomaly is Chelsea but they went into last season as champions and still have all their most important players from that season. So didn't need anything like the major surgery we obviously require.

Throw into the mix the massive pain in the hole of Europa league football (as compared to Chelsea, who get a full week off between games) and it's really not hard to see why we're off the pace so far, compared to all the clubs I just mentioned.
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So how did Spurs have a decent season with the massive pain in the hole of Europa league football?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Partly because all their usual rivals imploded so their main competitor was Leicester but mainly because a "decent season" for Spurs isn't far off a sackable offence for a Manchester United manger.
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I don't think anyone would consider a decent title challenge and 3rd place as sackable for a Manchester United manager. Seems like an aspiration for Mourinho at the moment.
 
rocks13 said:
I don't think anyone would consider a decent title challenge and 3rd place as sackable for a Manchester United manager. Seems like an aspiration for Mourinho at the moment.
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In terms of points totals Spurs did not do well at all compared to what would be expected at United. Like I said (a few times now) it was a weird season, with loads of usually strong teams underperforming. Which puts our own failure to even reach the top four into context. Mourinho inherited a team that is fecking miles off the pace.

Oh and, for the record, Spurs won 3 out of their first 9 league games last season. That's one less than we have in our first 9 league games this season.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
In terms of points totals Spurs did not do well at all compared to what would be expected at United. Like I said (a few times now) it was a weird season, with loads of usually strong teams underperforming. Which puts our own failure to even reach the top four into context. Mourinho inherited a team that is fecking miles off the pace.

Oh and, for the record, Spurs won 3 out of their first 9 league games last season. That's one less than we have in our first 9 league games this season.
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2 of those wins came after Europa league games. They drew after the other one.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
In terms of points totals Spurs did not do well at all compared to what would be expected at United. Like I said (a few times now) it was a weird season, with loads of usually strong teams underperforming. Which puts our own failure to even reach the top four into context. Mourinho inherited a team that is fecking miles off the pace.

Oh and, for the record, Spurs won 3 out of their first 9 league games last season. That's one less than we have in our first 9 league games this season.
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why are we not a strong team that underperformed though. We made Champions League the year before. we must be classed as one. Arsenal have never finished more than 5 points ahead in recent seasons. Jose inherited a team who would not take shots on goal and played for possession over scoring, yet we finished only 5 points behind the 2nd placed team. LVG did not get the full potential of this squad. We had lower chance creation and shots on goal than team far lower than us.
 
That season at Chelsea has shaken him. No doubt about that. Right man for Utd but wrong time. He should have come in before Moyes. As it is we have a Manager lacking confidence taking on a team lacking confidence, and it shows in our play.
 
rocks13 said:
2 of those wins came after Europa league games. They drew after the other one.
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The fact remains that all of our worst performances/results have come the weekend after a Thursday evening game (apart from the derby).

You can ignore this if you want but it's fairly fecking obvious that competing in that poxy competition is having a detrimental effect on our season so far. Which has still been better than Spurs start to their league campaign last season.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The fact remains that all of our worst performances/results have come the weekend after a Thursday evening game (apart from the derby).

You can ignore this if you want but it's fairly fecking obvious that competing in that poxy competition is having a detrimental effect on our season so far. Which has still been better than Spurs start to their league campaign last season.
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Yeah but Southampton seem to be doing quite well. They went toe to toe with City following their last Europa game. I think it's more of a case that most of our team are just not trying hard enough.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The fact remains that all of our worst performances/results have come the weekend after a Thursday evening game (apart from the derby).

You can ignore this if you want but it's fairly fecking obvious that competing in that poxy competition is having a detrimental effect on our season so far. Which has still been better than Spurs start to their league campaign last season.
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So do you genuinely believe that a comfortable 4-1 win against mediocre opposition on Thursday night was a major factor in our abysmal 4-0 defeat against Chelsea?
 
I honestly don't considering alot of the team was rested and like I pointed out already Southampton haven't lost any of their league games following Europa and they have their 3rd manager in about 3 years as well.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The fact remains that all of our worst performances/results have come the weekend after a Thursday evening game (apart from the derby).

You can ignore this if you want but it's fairly fecking obvious that competing in that poxy competition is having a detrimental effect on our season so far. Which has still been better than Spurs start to their league campaign last season.
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How about not starting players you start on Thursdays, the following Sunday? just a thought. Perhaps like many we could use the fringe players for the Europa
 
rocks13 said:
So do you genuinely believe that a comfortable 4-1 win against mediocre opposition on Thursday night was a major factor in our abysmal 4-0 defeat against Chelsea?
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Not a major factor, no. But, conversely, I do think Conte's relatively quick turnaround in Chelsea's fortunes has been helped by having all week, every week, working with them on the training pitch. The same reason Liverpool almost won the league under Rogers and the same reason that United managed to basically go backwards during Van Gaal's second season in charge.
 
Stacks said:
How about not starting players you start on Thursdays, the following Sunday? just a thought. Perhaps like many we could use the fringe players for the Europa
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Agreed. I'd also like to see fringe players in the League Cup. I don't like the way Mourinho rotates so little. Gives very little chance for fringe players to stake a claim. And god knows there are first team slots going a begging, based on recent form.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Not a major factor, no. But, conversely, I do think Conte's relatively quick turnaround in Chelsea's fortunes has been helped by having all week, every week, working with them on the training pitch. The same reason Liverpool almost won the league under Rogers and the same reason that United managed to basically go backwards during Van Gaal's second season in charge.
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But that's not about the 'poisoned chalice' of the Europa League then. Even if Van Gaal had got us into the Champions League it would have caused a problem by that rationale.
 
rocks13 said:
But that's not about the 'poisoned chalice' of the Europa League then. Even if Van Gaal had got us into the Champions League it would have caused a problem by that rationale.
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I think the Europa league is more detrimental to league performances than the CL, for obvious reasons. Hence the 'poisoned chalice' comment.

This isn't rocket science and I feel like I'm repeating myself, so am going to stop going round in circles if you don't get my point after this post.

Conte's been helped by not having to play in Europe at all.

Mourinho's been hindered by playing in the Europa League.

None of this is necessarily a "major factor" in Chelsea beating us at Stamford Bridge but it is clearly something to consider when you compare the overall season of both clubs/managers so far.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Jesus christ. The feck are you on about? Look at our results the weekend after Europa games this season. Draw your own conclusions. I'm done with this thread for today.
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Yeah, probably best to give this one up and try to think of some better excuses for Jose. Even he isn't using this one. And if those excuses involve blaming Van Gaal for our problems all the better.
 
ZupZup said:
Well, it's fairly obvious to me and any professional footballer would agree that their consistency and performance would likely improve when...

A. they are given a run of games
B. get to play in their best position

These ideas are widely accepted and hardly controversial.
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I'm not denying that to be a true, but I argue causality the other way exists as well.

When a player is inconsistent, he will have runs of bad form, which makes him lose his starting spot. Thus, inconsistent performance may cause inconsistent selection - just as much as inconsistent selection may cause inconsistent performance.

And I don't know how someone who watches a game as a supporter, are able to identify which way the arrow goes at all time.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Agreed. I'd also like to see fringe players in the League Cup. I don't like the way Mourinho rotates so little. Gives very little chance for fringe players to stake a claim. And god knows there are first team slots going a begging, based on recent form.
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I don't know how true it is but the narrative is that Jose finds a team and sticks with it as he wants to win all comps, meaning that fringe players (as you mention) don't get the chance to stake a claim. Loic Remy managed 8 starts (all comps) in the title winning season, Luis only 9. 13 players started 15 or more games all comps. So thats the starting 11 plus 2 subs. That season 19 players started 15 or more matches for Arsenal.
 
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