To the posters saying Mourinho is done

ZupZup said:
My issue is more... how does he exactly expect to gain any consistency when he is chopping and changing so much from one game to the next?! Against Liverpool, we have two midfielders holding (Fellaini, Herrera) and Pogba at 10. Against Chelsea we suddenly have Fellaini at 10 and Herrera holding with Pogba more of a box to box? I'm not sure how we expect to gain any consistency when team selection has been so inconsistent...

What I would like to see is a clear plan of how he wants this team to play and a clear idea of who are the best personnel in the current squad to achieve that. Allow the players a chance to gel and perform more consistently. I feel like all of the changes from one game to the next is just not allowing us to do that.
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All those things are classic problems new managers face. They try different combinations out to try and see what works and what doesn't. For example, he started with Rooney and has now dropped him. I think we'll see the same for Fellaini soon. He didn't start with Rashford but he's now first choice.

The reason he's changing is because he's still learning his best team and combinations. Once we have that down and they are playing the way he would like, we can worry about consistency. I think Mourinho himself said something like this in an interview at the start of the season; that achieving consistency comes last.
 
Lawman said:
Early days Twig Jose needs another couple of summer windows to get a team that can compete. He has signed well in Pogba and Bailly imo for the future and Zlatan is a step up on anything we have. We are still lacking in major positions just now and that's not Jose fault I have complete faith in him.
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So we just write off another couple of season then? Okay. So we'll be competitive by 2017-18. What do you mean by compete by the way? Challenge for trophies or actually go out and win something?
What do we do during the next 2 seasons then that makes it okay for the project to continue? Do we at least expect top 4 or is that no longer necessary?
With 2 more years of mediocrity will we be able to hold on to the likes of DDG, Tony M and Paul Pogba so we can bring in the rest of the players we need to compete?
 
Man-United said:
This forum say JM is done, Zlatan is done, Pogba is the worst signing.
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The crazy thing is that those fans are saying this after only 2 months!!!
Giving up after 2 months?

If we get a new manager, he'll probably get about 2 weeks before the "you have failed" brigade turn up. The manager after that will probably be fired after his first loss.

Fans needs to be patient. We have arguably the best manager in the World. The right coaches. Some great players. A massive fanbase. Great stadium. Massive funds/resources (if the managers needs it). Let the season play out.
 
sunama said:
The crazy thing is that those fans are saying this after only 2 months!!!
Giving up after 2 months?

If we get a new manager, he'll probably get about 2 weeks before the "you have failed" brigade turn up. The manager after that will probably be fired after his first loss.

Fans needs to be patient. We have arguably the best manager in the World. The right coaches. Some great players. A massive fanbase. Great stadium. Massive funds/resources (if the managers needs it). Let the season play out.
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In fairness, this kind of hysteria has thus far been limited to a very small minority of feeble-minded bed-wetters.
 
sunama said:
The crazy thing is that those fans are saying this after only 2 months!!!
Giving up after 2 months?

If we get a new manager, he'll probably get about 2 weeks before the "you have failed" brigade turn up. The manager after that will probably be fired after his first loss.

Fans needs to be patient. We have arguably the best manager in the World. The right coaches. Some great players. A massive fanbase. Great stadium. Massive funds/resources (if the managers needs it). Let the season play out.
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Exactly. I know its hard after the last 3 seasons, but I for one am going to be patient and give Jose and United some time before jumping off the bridge. Look at the olde Klopp headlines after he took over and they had trouble...now he is back to being a genius on here ( I rate Klopp by the way).

In this day and age its hard for people to have patience with anything, with sports its even worse than most things.
 
Cantonagotmehere said:
Exactly. I know its hard after the last 3 seasons, but I for one am going to be patient and give Jose and United some time before jumping off the bridge. Look at the olde Klopp headlines after he took over and they had trouble...now he is back to being a genius on here ( I rate Klopp by the way).

In this day and age its hard for people to have patience with anything, with sports its even worse than most things.
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You can't use the Klopp comparison as Klopp came in mid season with no summer transfer window and Liverpool didn't spend 200 million in their window.
 
He doesn't seem to have the enthusiasm of old, i think maybe what happened at Chelsea has had an effect on him and I wonder if he was a bit shocked at the state of United when he came in, not saying he should be sacked, just making an observation.
 
ZAGREB RED said:
He doesn't seem to have the enthusiasm of old, i think maybe what happened at Chelsea has had an effect on him and I wonder if he was a bit shocked at the state of United when he came in, not saying he should be sacked, just making an observation.
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He had the look of a broken man on his face at 4-0 down when the fans that used to worship him were mockingly singing José Mourinho while cheering every pass around us .
 
ZupZup said:
My issue is more... how does he exactly expect to gain any consistency when he is chopping and changing so much from one game to the next?!
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Consistency in team selection is not the same as consistency in performance. I find it shallow to assume that.

Especially as a Man United supporter, the team that "invented" the rotation policy and switched around our team a lot while remaining consistent winners for years.

It is not like we try to play like Barca in one game, and like Leicester in another. Many core ideas remain the same, and changes in formation is an adjustment. Just like when City played strikerless against Barca.

The issue of consistency is much more rich than that, and includes amongst other things individual performance. Some players have a vast variance in performance, like Smalling, Lingard and Blind to name some. In addition, we have young players that have important roles. And usually, youngsters struggle to perform consistent. Examples are Martial, Rashford and Shaw.

If we changed from man-man to zonal every week, if we changed from playing total football to hoof-ball - I could understand the worry about lack of plan. Not by changing from 1-2 to 2-1 in midfield when defending.

Louis van Gaal had a clear plan of how to play, arguably one of the clearest in top football. We were still wildly inconsistent during his two years, just as we were under Moyes. Even during Sir Alex' final years, in particular 11/12.

Its not even obvious to me how one can claim inconsistent selection cause inconsistent performance, and not the other way around (which sounds much more natural to me).
 
ZAGREB RED said:
He doesn't seem to have the enthusiasm of old, i think maybe what happened at Chelsea has had an effect on him and I wonder if he was a bit shocked at the state of United when he came in, not saying he should be sacked, just making an observation.
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ManUchosenbosslvg said:
He had the look of a broken man on his face at 4-0 down when the fans that used to worship him were mockingly singing José Mourinho while cheering every pass around us .
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It's been noticed about his "miserable" demeanour. Maybe it's because he simply wants to get on with his job and no longer engage in media/attention seeking activities like he used to. The last year he has been a laughing stock, humiliated and his behaviour got him in trouble. He has had time to reflect and grow up.

I think he's been quite tame as United boss.

Unfortunately he built a caricature of himself he can't escape.
 
sunama said:
The crazy thing is that those fans are saying this after only 2 months!!!
Giving up after 2 months?

If we get a new manager, he'll probably get about 2 weeks before the "you have failed" brigade turn up. The manager after that will probably be fired after his first loss.

Fans needs to be patient. We have arguably the best manager in the World. The right coaches. Some great players. A massive fanbase. Great stadium. Massive funds/resources (if the managers needs it). Let the season play out.
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I bet some of these fans were saying we'd win the league this season also.
 
ManUchosenbosslvg said:
He had the look of a broken man on his face at 4-0 down when the fans that used to worship him were mockingly singing José Mourinho while cheering every pass around us .
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Its just one point.....the point still is true that no one has any patience anymore, especially in the sports world. Its kind of nice not freaking out all the time.
 
He isn't done. He won a title a couple years ago, however, his tactics, to me, are very negative, and there's only so much defending you can do in a game before you get exposed.

I would like us to play the 'modern way', i.e. high press, interchanging, full backs high up, etc. As long as Jose is here, I don't think that will happen, unfortunately. That said, ultimately, he'll be judged on silverware. If he wins silverware with the way he currently plays, which to be fair, he's done for a long time, then so be it.
 
donkeyfish said:
Its not even obvious to me how one can claim inconsistent selection cause inconsistent performance, and not the other way around (which sounds much more natural to me).
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Well, it's fairly obvious to me and any professional footballer would agree that their consistency and performance would likely improve when...

A. they are given a run of games
B. get to play in their best position

These ideas are widely accepted and hardly controversial.
 
Mourinho's record in his last 38 league matches 16-9-13 57 pts.

Mourinho's PL record since 15/16 (25 matches) 8-5-12 29 pts.
 
I think now, after 3 managers trying and arguably failing to arrest the slide, that the blame lies firmly with the squad, rather than the manager...

There is something "wrong" at United, that you don't seem to get with other teams...the constant leaks, the apparent lack of desire from the majority of them, shit performances week on week...

Something stinks at this club, and Jose needs to weed out the bad apples, and move them the feck out of the club, regardless of who they are, and replace them with someone who wants to actually play for the club...
 
Big Andy said:
I think now, after 3 managers trying and arguably failing to arrest the slide, that the blame lies firmly with the squad, rather than the manager...

There is something "wrong" at United, that you don't seem to get with other teams...the constant leaks, the apparent lack of desire from the majority of them, shit performances week on week...

Something stinks at this club, and Jose needs to weed out the bad apples, and move them the feck out of the club, regardless of who they are, and replace them with someone who wants to actually play for the club...
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Even if they aren't £100m players either.

To make a cake, you first need to start with flour without maggots in. Doesn't matter how expensive the chocolate is if you've got maggots in the flour
 
It could even be the case Mourinho has stalled. He took over the joint-best defence in the division based on goals conceded last season, allowed himself a smile of satisfaction after shutting out Liverpool at Anfield, then lost the plot spectacularly at Chelsea. The old Mourinho was about certainty, not inconsistency. His teams were drilled to within an inch of their lives, not allowed to let their attention wander to the extent of conceding within a minute. United must have thought they had signed the old Mourinho, the one many worried would be too defensive and dour for the club’s traditions.

It appears they have ended up with some unhappy hybrid. Not so good at organising defences, playing the transfer market or transforming teams into slick machines, but still dour. Guardiola, as it happens, is getting dourer by the day too, though a win would probably bring back the smile and easy charm. One wonders if the same can be said of the United manager. Mourinho appears to have lost some of his love for football, the enjoyment is no longer discernible. United fans will know exactly how he feels.
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The Guardian

The screws they are a turning.
 
He's not happy at OT, the question is will he try and turn things around or chuck it. He looks quite downcast a lot of the time and his comment about the press hanging around his hotel illustrates that. If things were going well, he would be bantering and chatting with them, throwing a few quotes their way. I think he may have been a little surprised at the size of the task in hand and just how much rebuilding actually needs to be done at OT.
Not advocating for it to happen, but if things go from bad to worse, I wouldn't be surprised if he walks away, he seems to have lost a bit of his fire and spirit.
 
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ManUchosenbosslvg said:
He had the look of a broken man on his face at 4-0 down when the fans that used to worship him were mockingly singing José Mourinho while cheering every pass around us .
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If someone removed the post date and asked me to read it, I would have thought you were describing Moyes. Atleast LvG had the combativeness and self confidence to trudge on.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
The Guardian

The screws they are a turning.
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I listen to their podcast to get a good range of facts, but when their journalists voice their own opinion on such facts, it becomes a hilarious comedy of stupidity.

I personally find Guardian terribly opinionated and somewhat biased.
 
VP89 said:
I listen to their podcast to get a good range of facts, but when their journalists voice their own opinion on such facts, it becomes a hilarious comedy of stupidity.

I personally find Guardian terribly opinionated and somewhat biased.
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As a non-Brit, I find The Guardian to be the only non-tabloid paper I can read. The article is not wrong in any way even if it appears to reveal the common sentiment.
 
VP89 said:
I listen to their podcast to get a good range of facts, but when their journalists voice their own opinion on such facts, it becomes a hilarious comedy of stupidity.

I personally find Guardian terribly opinionated and somewhat biased.
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Yup, absolutely shit article.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
As a non-Brit, I find The Guardian to be the only non-tabloid paper I can read. The article is not wrong in any way even if it appears to reveal the common sentiment.
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The article labels the first manager to have the balls to drop Rooney in consecutive games "powerless".

Its just an excuse for them to dish out comedic one liners, like "Ibrahimovic is a totem up front, and he runs like one"

Terribly knee jerk outlet - just one day ago they posted this headline: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/oct/24/jose-mourinho-manchester-united-antonio-conte
 
I am in the camp for jose to have at the very least 2 summers. And, I still voice my concerns with him from time to time because I had such high expectations with him. It is just that I want us to do so well after 3 years with a highly rated manager.

I think it is a bit weird for some people to come in and point out the previous 2 managers's being/doing shit to defend jose being/doing a bit of shit himself at this point though. He is a world class manager after all. Don't know if we should lower expectations like the other previous two.

Also people saying he needs a new squad for him to get 'his players and style'.

What manager ever got that chance and time these days? And like all 'his players' are doing great atm and his style is getting us a lot of results and/or entertaining us. Even though we don't know what his style exactly is atm but we know he wants to play 'attacking football'. The real danger for us fans is that we are hardly super entertaining attacking team atm and he might even go to more defensive style due to some shit tactics and freak results.

But it is true that early days like many say and I am a tad scared of us playing any decent teams at this moment.
 
As a Chelsea fan I supported Jose right to the end. Even when we were close to the bottom four I felt for the guy. As MUFC supporters I think you guys should support him through thick and thin.

Can he turn it around? Does it need turning around? It was only one particularly bad result in a fixture you have struggled with in the past. If you win tonight things will be different.

Is Jose done?

In all honesty I find it hard to say. If I were a MUFC fan I would probably say no. As a Chelsea fan I'm finding it difficult to be unbiased so I won't commit.
 
The United said:
I am in the camp for jose to have at the very least 2 summers. And, I still voice my concerns with him from time to time because I had such high expectations with him. It is just that I want us to do so well after 3 years with a highly rated manager.

I think it is a bit weird for some people to come in and point out the previous 2 managers's being/doing shit to defend jose being/doing a bit of shit himself at this point though. He is a world class manager after all. Don't know if we should lower expectations like the other previous two.

Also people saying he needs a new squad for him to get 'his players and style'.

What manager ever got that chance and time these days? And like all 'his players' are doing great atm and his style is getting us a lot of results and/or entertaining us. Even though we don't know what his style exactly is atm but we know he wants to play 'attacking football'. The real danger for us fans is that we are hardly super entertaining attacking team atm and he might even go to more defensive style due to some shit tactics and freak results.

But it is true that early days like many say and I am a tad scared of us playing any decent teams at this moment.
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I'm not sure exactly what posts you refer to but we'd only be lowering expectations if we didn't expect us to do any better than we did under the previous two by the end of this season, as compared to their first seasons in charge. I don't think anyone on here would be happy if that was the case.
 
Big Andy said:
I think now, after 3 managers trying and arguably failing to arrest the slide, that the blame lies firmly with the squad, rather than the manager...

There is something "wrong" at United, that you don't seem to get with other teams...the constant leaks, the apparent lack of desire from the majority of them, shit performances week on week...

Something stinks at this club, and Jose needs to weed out the bad apples, and move them the feck out of the club, regardless of who they are, and replace them with someone who wants to actually play for the club...
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Couldn't have said it better. Some of these players just won't accept a manager with new ideas and a different approach. The leaks the other day about Mourinho not being as hands on in training as some players expected pissed me right off. We sure do have some fecking snakes in our squad.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I'm not sure exactly what posts you refer to but we'd only be lowering expectations if we didn't expect us to do any better than we did under the previous two by the end of this season, as compared to their first seasons in charge. I don't think anyone on here would be happy if that was the case.
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You are right with judging and looking at our expectation by the end of season.

What I wanted to say is like how our team should be playing and how fast we can get there in general. How people are giving all the excuses for not getting there by bringing in all the shits that the 2 previous managers did who we regarded as shit. Or even bringing some of SAF's.

Like I said, I am a bit impatient due to the 3 years of shit and the class of manager we have now. Probably because of those, I am a bit frustrated. Oh and our rivals playing decent to good football while we are in this.
 
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He needs time. He needs to mold the team how he wants it. I honestly believe that it'll take years and years to pick up the pieces of the Moyes and LVG fiascos - they did *that* much damage.

We need to stand behind Jose and give him the support he needs, win lose or draw.
 
The United said:
You are right with judging and looking at our expectation by the end of season.

What I wanted to say is like how our team should be playing and how fast we can get there in general. How people are giving all the excuses for not getting there by bringing in all the shits that the 2 previous managers did who we regarded as shit. Or even bringing some of SAF's.

Like I said, I am a bit impatient due to the 3 years of shit and the class of manager we have now. Probably because of those, I am a bit frustrated. Oh and our rivals playing good to decent football while we are in this.
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We're all frustrated. The last 3 years have taken their toll and it sucks balls that the team is still a work in progress. After spending so much money and belatedly hiring a manager who is capable of winning this league. I get all of that. I just don't get the idea that gving the new manager a half a season or so to turn things round is somehow lowering standards.

Yes, things seem to be taking shape quicker at other clubs but let's not forget that Conte inherited a squad who won the league the season before last, without losing anyone significant since. Guardiola's squad was similarly strong and at this point in Klopp's Liverpool career their record was almost identical to that of the previous manager. Mourinho's had to replace the entire spine of our team this summer (CB, CM and CF) so stands to reason that it will take more than a dozen games to get us playing the way he wants.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
We're all frustrated. The last 3 years have taken their toll and it sucks balls that the team is still a work in progress. After spending so much money and belatedly hiring a manager who is capable of winning this league. I get all of that. I just don't get the idea that gving the new manager a half a season or so to turn things round is somehow lowering standards.

Yes, things seem to be taking shape quicker at other clubs but let's not forget that Conte inherited a squad who won the league the season before last, without losing anyone significant since. Guardiola's squad was similarly strong and at this point in Klopp's Liverpool career their record was almost identical to that of the previous manager. Mourinho's had to replace the entire spine of our team this summer (CB, CM and CF) so stands to reason that it will take more than a dozen games to get us playing the way he wants.
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I agree with the sentiment here for the most part - but Mourinho has a proven track record (even in his second stint of Chelsea) of hitting the ground running really well with teams and getting them to improve almost instantly under him. He's always been great at instant impact at clubs, so it's definitely concerning that he's not doing that here at all. We don't look like a team that has ... any sort of coherent plan or shape or anything, and he still has no idea what his best XI is. It's all a bit weird.
 
Nobody has any patience with managers or players these days.

You are never going to get 11 man of the match performances every week and a new manager can't just click his fingers and fix 3 years of failure.

All I want is some kind of stability to let the team blend together, pick the same team for a run of 10 games in the league and then decide what is and isn't working.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
We're all frustrated. The last 3 years have taken their toll and it sucks balls that the team is still a work in progress. After spending so much money and belatedly hiring a manager who is capable of winning this league. I get all of that. I just don't get the idea that gving the new manager a half a season or so to turn things round is somehow lowering standards.

Yes, things seem to be taking shape quicker at other clubs but let's not forget that Conte inherited a squad who won the league the season before last, without losing anyone significant since. Guardiola's squad was similarly strong and at this point in Klopp's Liverpool career their record was almost identical to that of the previous manager. Mourinho's had to replace the entire spine of our team this summer (CB, CM and CF) so stands to reason that it will take more than a dozen games to get us playing the way he wants.
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Hopefully, when we get there with how he wants us to play, it would be a decent football.

I haven't watched much of conte's football to give exact opinions. But, I think the likes of pep, klopp, Pochettino etc are doing/building their teams even when they were/are in a bit of shit periods with a bit more exciting (let's say my preferred style of football) than hoofing the ball up front football we seem to use/play a lot so far.

It is probably not so much fair. But, I think it is one of the negative shits I want to add in my opinion of jose even though I kept telling myself that we would have it with him a bit often and have to accept it.
 
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Massive Spanner said:
I agree with the sentiment here for the most part - but Mourinho has a proven track record (even in his second stint of Chelsea) of hitting the ground running really well with teams and getting them to improve almost instantly under him. He's always been great at instant impact at clubs, so it's definitely concerning that he's not doing that here at all. We don't look like a team that has ... any sort of coherent plan or shape or anything, and he still has no idea what his best XI is. It's all a bit weird.
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I don't think Mourinho has ever taken over at a club as far off the pace as us last season.

In his second stint at Chelsea they had previously finished third, made the semi-finals of both domestic cup competitions and won the Europa league. Even when he first took over at Chelsea, people forget that they were actually coming off the back of a decent season, despite Ranieri being sacked; finishing second in the league and making CL semi-finals. Similar story at Inter (champions) and Madrid (2nd) when he joined them.

United have been fecking floundering ever since Fergie left. Van Gaal also poisoned the chalice even further by passing on the shitfest that is Thursday night Europa league football. A factor that helped kill off his own United career, in his second season in charge.

All in all, there's load of good reasons for Mourinho to take a little longer than usual to have a positive impact at United. As per my previous post, the fact he's basically signed an entire new spine for the team is emblematic of the scale of task he's facing here. So I don't think we should be too concerned that we're not seeing a major improvement after his first dozen or so games in charge.
 
Don't really buy into the excuse of the Europa League being a factor in our poor start. There's really no difference in playing Thursday/Sunday or Wednesday/Saturday. It hasn't meant we've played any extra games at this stage and the poorer calibre opposition in it should be a chance to use squad payers anyway.
 
Vilev said:
All Chelsea's structure for example did not really help Mourinho last year, did it?
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Its just an excuse. No one truly knows the structure at Chelsea, Liverpool and Utd, nor can they explain how they differ. Its just a running rhetoric as to why the United role is the toughest by a country mile apparently
 
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