Tiers of Greatness
- Thread starter adexkola
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More accurate than the original one IMO.
Leónidas da Silva at World Cup 1938
Is that Doug Ellis?
For a club that has won 5 Champions Leagues, Liverpool don't have many all time great players do they, unless my poor knowledge of this subject shows and there are loads there.
Wouldn't you place Law, Del Piero, Buffon and Kahn one tier higher? I know we could do this all day but you've got players who've been consistently brilliant (maybe not Law? Although he did win Ballon D'Or and then a European Cup) over a lot of years, particularly the last three.
I'd be tempted to drop Ronaldinho one too. Didn't play at the top long enough. When he was there he was one of the best players I've ever seen, but tailed off far too quickly. Messi has to go up too. He can't be any better. You can say he needs to do it internationally, but at club level (Champions League?), he has torn teams apart for years now. Player of the Year for the last four years, playing with Ronaldo, Xavi and Iniesta is no mean feat.
Finally, was Keegan really that good? Arguably the second best England player ever? I'm really asking. Seen nowt of him.
I'd be tempted to drop Ronaldinho one too. Didn't play at the top long enough. When he was there he was one of the best players I've ever seen, but tailed off far too quickly. Messi has to go up too. He can't be any better. You can say he needs to do it internationally, but at club level (Champions League?), he has torn teams apart for years now. Player of the Year for the last four years, playing with Ronaldo, Xavi and Iniesta is no mean feat.
Finally, was Keegan really that good? Arguably the second best England player ever? I'm really asking. Seen nowt of him.
Well he won 2 Ballon d'Or (one at Liverpool, one at Hamburg), 2 German Bundesliga, 3 English leagues, 1 European Cup with Liverpool, 1 UEFA Cup, 1 European Cup finalist with Hamburg....
So I'd say he was pretty good yeah.
I'll ignore the trophies he's won. Ryan Giggs puts everyone to shame. I'd forgotten about his Ballon d'Or wins.I'm laughing like feck at the nortion Ronaldo Luiz isn't one of the greatest strikers to ever player the game.
"blah he won 1 time, blah blah, he never won the champions league". Big fecking deal. Individually he was absolutely incredible and practically unplayable in his young prime. Not winning those trophies wasn't down to him, because like I said, individually he was absolutely incredible and he destroyed the best defenders in the world.
"blah he won 1 time, blah blah, he never won the champions league". Big fecking deal. Individually he was absolutely incredible and practically unplayable in his young prime. Not winning those trophies wasn't down to him, because like I said, individually he was absolutely incredible and he destroyed the best defenders in the world.
Giggsy does yeah but I'm always impressed by a player that can move from one title winning team in a league to another country and make that team title winners in his first season (their first in almost 2 decades), also winning the Ballon d'Or in the process
I'm not denying he's one of the best players to ever play the game but Ronaldinho did all those things too and yet he also doesn't belong in that top group. They both belong in group 2.
Ahh, Ferdinand is going to be criminally underrated even when he retires. I've not seen a better defender than Rio at his best (2008) personally. Not saying that there hasn't been one, but it bends my mind imagining how it is possible - he had no weaknesses whatsoever and all of his strengths were ridiculously strong. I genuinely feel like we've had one of the most talented defenders of all time without it really going noticed. Very strange situation, to be honest.
I know it's just a list from a random person off the internet, but it's silly that he doesn't make the cut in a list like this whilst Rooney does.
I know it's just a list from a random person off the internet, but it's silly that he doesn't make the cut in a list like this whilst Rooney does.
Is Rooney is the list yeah? ha ha ha
Agree with KingEric about Rio.
Agree with KingEric about Rio.
Funny how Ibrahimovic wins titles wherever he goes, and has been acknowledged as one of the best players in the world for a numbers of years, but doesn't come close to winning the awards, let alone get a mention in threads like these.
Also, Kevin Keegan never won a Ballon d'Or at Liverpool, I checked.
Also, Kevin Keegan never won a Ballon d'Or at Liverpool, I checked.
Not really. Buffon and Kahn are probably the ones I downgraded the most, but with Yashin up there and Schmeichel, Banks and Zoff challenging there were already enough goalkeepers. And I would have Maier ahead of Kahn as well. Ultimately, there's little to argue about them two and Maier being in the same grouping.
He was the one I wondered about the longest, kept switching him up and down but he stuck out like a sore thumb more in the demi-god than the god tier.
As I pointed out before, I don't see Messi's individual mark on the game, I see it as part of a great team with those two you mention. Spain have been outstanding without Messi, but Messi hasn't done it without Xavi and Iniesta. When he does then he will probably have earned it.
Personally I would have him as a great but, as mentioned before, I wanted to allow for "other glasses" and surely there had to be a Liverpool player there. Whether him or Dalglish is a separate matter. IMO, he was quite clearly better than Dalglish though.
Giggsy does yeah but I'm always impressed by a player that can move from one title winning team in a league to another country and make that team title winners in his first season (their first in almost 2 decades), also winning the Ballon d'Or in the process
Yes, that actually is quite outstanding, particularly for an English player moving to a continental side.
Yeah, that's what makes it a bit different I think as opposed to your fairly typical "where is United player X?!!11" comment. At his height I think he's been superior to Giggs, Scholes and Rooney (clearly superior to Rooney without meaning to discredit his career here) whilst also being on terms with Ronaldo. It's like the whole thing has just gone completely under the radar though. Compare that with someone like Terry, who was rated so highly around about 2005/06 that people were delayed about 5 years in realising that he was not the same player after that. Around about the time everyone considered his 'decline' he was actually pretty shite, to be honest. I know he's not on this list either but the point stands: he has had nothing like the credit he has deserved yet there's a very strong case to say that he's been the best player these shores have produced since Gascoigne. One of the best English/British players of all time, basically. I know we're shite but that must count for something...!
I always see Bobby Moore on these sort of lists, but I'd be amazed if he was better than Ferdinand. I'm sure you don't receive the praise he has without being top drawer, but then again I've seen what the media in this country are like and the effect that they have on people's perceptions and views. I haven't seen much of him at all, but just how much does one tournament (which was, what, 10 games of a whole career?) elevate people's perceptions of a player? Would he be on the list? No idea, but I've always wondered.
Outrageous that he wasn't there. A great no doubt, a poor England side let him down in challenging for a higher ranking.
Nice justification. Kind of agree with Ronaldinho now too.
Ferdinand has been as good if not better, but lacks the no small matter of winning a World Cup and captaining England in a very tasty 1970 campaign.
Some on here saw both and reckon Ferdinand was indeed better. But it's not just the media, my grandfather (who was at quite a few World Cups) had Moore among his top 5 defenders ever. That from a South American used to proper defenders and not biased by the English media or club/country loyalties.
That's a definite improvement antohan, easier that there is just four tiers now. Without question Messi should move up though IMO. Then I'd take Henry and Keegan down to great. Possibly put Rijkaard and Nesta up a level.
Yes, we could spend all day underrating our rivals' best players
As I said, the idea is those at the top have made their mark on the game, Messi is probably the one out of all the gods who may yet make it to GOAT but he really has some clear deliverables to make it there.
Similar issue with the demi-god criteria I applied. The gods are meant to be the very best in key positions. Thus the demi-gods should be those who have a case for challenging them. There's a case for Breitner being a better box-to-box than Matthaus, or Neeskens having a superior football brain, but I'm not clear on what it is that Rijkaard can do better than Matthaus to any significant degree, which is why I didn't stick him up in demi-god. I do agree he is a tad better but Desailly, Keane, Vieira and Davids are not unworthy company.
Similar logic with Nesta and Baresi, I struggle to find one thing I would clearly prefer about Nesta over Baresi other than height, but it didn't really make a significant difference in terms of aerial ability. I just can't see a scenario where you would pick Nesta ahead of Baresi. Cracking defender, but he belongs right there alongside the likes of Passarella, Rio, Thuram or Stam.
I dig it
Great effort.
I like the GOAT tier. I also like the name for the category, GOAT.
I wouldn't have Yashin in the second category, as I think Schmeichel can lay claim to be as good. Or at least I wouldn't separate the two.
I also think Jairzinho is too high and shouldn't be above Gullit, Giggs, Scholes, Passarella, probably more. In fact, I wouldn't have Moore above Passarella either.
Generally, Gascoigne, Cantona, Roberto Carlos and Lineker being on here means about 50 more names could easily be added who are as good, hence where you've put many more names down.
Messi needs to be in the GOAT tier, if he's the greatest ever is down to opinion but he's definitely within the top 5 to have played the game.
I was going to type this! You beat me to the punch
In that case, Kohler looks like T-Bag from Prison Break!
In terms of ability without a doubt. But what about tactical understanding or leadership. Do you think a team with Cruyff or Beckenbauer as the heartbeat would have looked as clueless as Argentina under an incompetent coach like Maradona? I highly doubt it. They influenced the team on a different level. Shouldn't these things count as well?
I like Antohan's GOAT Tier a lot, because those 5 were up there in everything that's important to win games, not only ability alone. Messi was still very young in 2010, so I wouldn't hold the world cup against him. That's why I don't get the need to write him in that GOAT tier now. He got time on his side, he can surpass everyone, play at least 2 more world cups. Who knows, maybe we see him as the greatest deep lying playmaker of all time winning the world cup in 2022. I think it's possible. He doesn't need to win the worldcup, but being the best player in it, leading Argentina to a few great wins against top nations, that he should do, if he's one of the best of all time.
Giggs, Casillas and Totti should have been a tier above. Probably Seedorf and Zanetti too.
GOAT tier name is funny.
GOAT tier name is funny.
Agree. Though I think that Ronaldo was better than Ronaldinho, still I don't think that he should be in the first group.
Only goals doesn't count, but sure as hell they count a lot. And Messi has the best ever record in terms of goals. Also, three Champions League wins and five La Liga wins, with an unprecedented four in a row Ballon D'or counts a little. Time will tell if he will be remembered as the greatest ever (for me he definitely is, even if he retires today) but he surely deserves to be in the highest group.
Why would you bring Michael Laudrup down a tier? He was better than most of the players in the GOD tier.
I'd bring Laudrup and Rivaldo up a tier in Anto's one, but otherwise it (and Brwned's earlier one) is a solid effort.
Anywhere else but RedCafe Yashin would be undisputed. That said, it's no slight on Schmeichel to put him down as one of his close challengers.
Yeah, Jairzinho looked like one maybe propped up too high, particularly relative to his teammates Gerson and Tostao. But think about challenging the gods: Jairzinho took over from Garrincha for club and country. In fact, when they played together in his early Botafogo days it was him being played out of position and only taking the right wing when Garrincha was injured. I felt the way he went on to be a great in his own right, top scoring in a World Cup (and scoring in all games to boot), deserved recognition.
I can see an argument for Passarella in demi-god indeed. My logic was Figueroa was there and Passarella firmly behind him.
Remember I'm taking into account how they challenge within a position. Laudrup is effectively challenging Platini, Zico and Zidane, that's the relevant comparison. Laudrup on his day could stand alongside them, but they did it more consistently, over a longer period, and left a more significant legacy trophies/records-wise.
Same holds for Rivaldo either in a central role or compared to the wingers. Rivaldo vs. Ronaldinho is a very close challenge, mind. I was faced with the same issue with him, which is why I ultimately promoted Ronaldinho to lay down the marker for the likes of Rivaldo and, somewhat, Henry.
As usual, I couldn't have put it better myself (in fact, I didn't!).
The one who consistently did that in the rise of Barca and Spain was Xavi, not Messi (which is wht Xavi is in God ahead of Iniesta and significantly ahead of Scholes, Pirlo, etc.). You took Xavi out and suddenly no one on the pitch looked so god-like, let alone GOAT-like. It is wrong to say it can't be held against Messi that he has always had that setup. He doesn't for Argentina and, so far, has failed to impress.
The last few times I saw Argentina he was starting to shape things, who knows by 2014, but right now he is where he belongs.
BTW, does anyone have the faintest idea what font that is? Would like to add the missing ones.
Best has to be GOAT category. Look at the other players in the demi god tier, all greats but did any of them have a wider cultural impact. Did they mean anything to society outside of the footballing community?
I think Best deserves to be their on ability alone but he was also a first, he ushered in a new era for the sport, at least in Britain. A true cultural icon.
It shouldn't be just about what they did on the pitch, obviously that's essential but if somebody does something special outside of the game it should also be a contributing factor.
I think Best deserves to be their on ability alone but he was also a first, he ushered in a new era for the sport, at least in Britain. A true cultural icon.
It shouldn't be just about what they did on the pitch, obviously that's essential but if somebody does something special outside of the game it should also be a contributing factor.
None of that cultural stuff is relevant.
There's no question this list is defective right out of the gate by dropping Messi below the GOAT tier.
No it's not, he doesn't meet the requirements for Antohan's GOAT tier. Make your own if you disagree so strongly.
Great post, well put.