Tiers of Greatness
- Thread starter adexkola
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That OP list is awful. Fat Ronaldo ahead of C.Ronaldo alone is an absolute train wreck. And they have clearly forgotten how good Giggs was in his prime.
I know an old guy -- only on the Internet who knows if he's pulling my cock -- who says he's been a United man since the early 1950s and watched every great player since then as they played in or came through Europe, and he's exactly the same thing, that Duncan Edwards was the greatest footballer he ever saw, without any question.
The most underrated footballer in football history, won pretty much every trophy there was to win including the World & European cups, being the driving force behind both of those teams, and would have undoubtedly won even more if it hadn't had been for most of his team mates being wiped out just as they were starting to dominate.
It's easy to forget now, but at the time of the Munich air disaster, Madrid with Di Stefano had just 2 European cups, and only narrowly beat Milan in the final the season of Munich, to see what difference a season can make just look at United in the 06/07 season in Europe and the following one when we won it, it was similar to how we went out in 56/57 season, and imo we would have at least had made it to the final in 57/58.
So, I don't think it's unfair to say that maybe Di Stefano's trophy haul with Madrid was more impressive partly due to the fact that United had been virtually wiped out in Munich, Charlton could easily have matched him both domestically and on the European level if not for Munich.
I'm not really a fan of using footballer's quotes about other players, because even in those days they only saw them when they either played against each other, or were team mates, they didn't have the benefit of every game being televised like now, but there's a few quotes floating out there from people who saw him closely.
And one from Johnny Giles who played with and against him, and also happened to play against Beckenbauer who some of you seem to think was better.
It's easy to forget now, but at the time of the Munich air disaster, Madrid with Di Stefano had just 2 European cups, and only narrowly beat Milan in the final the season of Munich, to see what difference a season can make just look at United in the 06/07 season in Europe and the following one when we won it, it was similar to how we went out in 56/57 season, and imo we would have at least had made it to the final in 57/58.
So, I don't think it's unfair to say that maybe Di Stefano's trophy haul with Madrid was more impressive partly due to the fact that United had been virtually wiped out in Munich, Charlton could easily have matched him both domestically and on the European level if not for Munich.
I'm not really a fan of using footballer's quotes about other players, because even in those days they only saw them when they either played against each other, or were team mates, they didn't have the benefit of every game being televised like now, but there's a few quotes floating out there from people who saw him closely.
And one from Johnny Giles who played with and against him, and also happened to play against Beckenbauer who some of you seem to think was better.
Ronaldo before his knee injuries hit a level C.Ronaldo hasn't ever shown. He took the likes of Hierro, Montero, Maldini etc., to the cleaners regularly in his early twenties. Proper defenders, not the jokers that we see today in La Liga . Ronaldo after his injuries was still one of the world's best players..he dominated World Cup 2002 adapting his game as a pure finisher, but it was nothing close to the level he showed in the mid/late 90's.
The fact that people still talk about a 'what if' in Ronaldo's case after all that he achieved in his career speaks volumes. Cristiano shouldn't be even talked about in the same breath as his namesake.
CR has already hit the ridiculous level the original Ronaldo hit during that crazy 3-4 year span. But I wouldn't say this Ronaldo is better than that Ronaldo. At least not yet.
By the way, are we all agreed now that Messi > Maradona?
C. Ronaldo has already put up better numbers than Ronaldo ever did, even in his magical season at Barca. He will obviously never win a World Cup though, which is what a lot of people tend to erroneously look at when it comes to greatness.
Not for me. Ronaldo in that period was doing things at will and no one could stop him from going through 4 players as if they weren't there. The skill level at speed, the finishing, the strength and finesse in an era with some of the finest defenders to play the game..truly a phenomenon. Opinions game though.
And the new Ronaldo hasn't done all that which you have described the old Ronaldo did?
And there's every reason to believe the new Ronaldo can maintain this insane level for at least another 4-5 seasons.
It's not about winning a World Cup, it's about dominating a World Cup with performances. It's a cup competition, the team that deserves it doesn't necessarily win it. True greatness is measured by performances in the competition.. Ronaldo dominated two World Cups in 98 and 02. Messi and CR7 have done the grand total of feck all in their international exploits.
Has he? He's a supreme goalscorer no doubt, and has a mean free kick and long range shot in his locker while also being very quick. His general play in comparison to Ronaldo doesn't add up though. He still lacks vision and can become a bit one-dimensional at times. You could make a case for Cristiano on numbers..in terms of general play and intelligence though Ronaldo was streets ahead imo. The defensive level of La Liga across the board is conducive to attacking players. Ronaldo went to Serie A when it was a notoriously defensive league and dominated it. That's greatness for me.
Somehow if no one could stop him, how is it Luiz Ronaldo never won a league title till Real Madrid and Zidane & co?
Of the three full seasons before that his Barcelona lost by 2 points to a Madrid side with Mijatovic, Suker, Raul, Hierro, Seedorf, Carlos, Redondo, his Inter side lost by 5 points to a Juventus with Zidane, Del Piero, Inzaghi, Deschamps, Davids and his PSV side finished behind an undefeated Ajax.
Great critique Cal.
By that logic - Paolo Rossi, Schillaci and Roger Mila should be in the top tier. Clearly not the case. The world cup is a tiny snapshot of a much bigger picture.
Ok so Messi is not a great player because he hasn't won a team competition with Argentina no matter how ridiculously talented he is and what he has done with club and country apart from the world cup.
So I guess Klose and Toni are the goats of the game.
So I guess Klose and Toni are the goats of the game.
Vidic? Ferdinand? Stam? Bruce? Pallister?
The "How many Manchester United Centrebacks can you name" thread is that way -->
Well I see Thuram, Dessaily, Larrson, Deco in there.
Not sure why Vidic, Stam and Rio couldn't get in there.
You can make a case for those three, definitely. Bruce and Pallister though?
Think I agree on that with you.
Yet somehow when Real Madrid don't win the league, it's because Messi is better than C Ronaldo... however, when L Ronaldo can't win the league, he's still a GOAT?
Nail on the head. Couldn't have put it better myself.
No.
I don't think if you swapped Messi into 1980's Napoli/Barca/Boca/Argentina teams you'd see the same results as Maradona produced.
Still plenty of time for that to be proven though, he's young and I'm enjoying the journey so far.
I think it's an important factor, but it is only a factor, yes. Rossi, Schillaci and Milla clearly only had the WC performances; though in Schillaci's case I cannot remember anything else he did except swing a leg to score 6 times. Oleg Salenko did that.
Again, silly comparison. As someone else said, it's not about winning the competition, it's about proving yourself on that stage, at that level.
Messi didn't even score a goal at 2010 World Cup. He's been anonymous at that level and his scoring record for Argentina compared with Barcelona speaks volumed, hence me saying above that I don't think he'd be as effective in Maradona's teams.
I was at that game. It was insane.
How come Heskey isn't on there? This is outrageous I say.
Amazing! A unique and obscure one to have witnessed, given it's a record but the bloke is very forgettable.
Beyond Salenko's display, the Cameroonian players refused to return to the pitch after halftime to protest a pay dispute. Crazy day.
Allow me... Kevin fecking Keegan two tiers above Denis Law? I think not.
Keegan sandwiched in between Didi and Scirea is a strange one alright. Should Law and Charlton be on the same tier?
It is odd, but either him or Dalglish should absolutely be there.
I actually started playing around with it and found the first couple of tiers rather easy but the calls thereafter are excruciating and ultimately you have to adopt a fair bit of empathy to tell demi-gods from greats.
Don't think Charlton and Law belong in the same tier myself. Law is probably handicapped by being Scottish, but then that doesn't stop Best making it to the top end...
How did fat Ronaldo make the top tier?
Won 1 proper league title over the course of his entire career, never won the Champions League.
The entire thing is just a little bizarre to be honest.
Won 1 proper league title over the course of his entire career, never won the Champions League.
The entire thing is just a little bizarre to be honest.
Ronny should be in the top tier.
My take on it
Messi's the best player of all time.
Antohan, what would you say were the criteria required to be placed in a certain tier?
As far as I'm concerned the GOAT tier is reserved to complete footballers who mark a before and after in the history of the game. Call them revolutionary gods if you would.
Gods have a claim to be the best ever in a specific role/position but have not made as distinctive an impact.
I don't see a before and after Messi, certainly a before and after Barca which is marked by Messi, Xavi and Iniesta all having a high ranking, but no one of them being as instrumental or as clearcut a step change as those in the GOAT tier.
Gods have a claim to be the best ever in a specific role/position but have not made as distinctive an impact.
I don't see a before and after Messi, certainly a before and after Barca which is marked by Messi, Xavi and Iniesta all having a high ranking, but no one of them being as instrumental or as clearcut a step change as those in the GOAT tier.
Re: demi-gods my thoughts there revolved around highlighting those who run the gods close and, depending on who you ask, they may or may not be gods. Or their position doesn't warrant God status (e.g. the best ever fullbacks, and I've just noticed I lost N. Santos along the way).
The greats are that, Greats with a capital G, but no one would realistically hold them as gods.
The greats are that, Greats with a capital G, but no one would realistically hold them as gods.
No Pedernera or Walter Gómez, anto? Although the latter is not well known, he was Uruguayan (although many mistook him for an Argie). The former many Argies rate above even Di Stéfano, although this may be a lot to do with home bias & national identity issues -- likewise for Moreno.
IMO, Spencer at least belongs on the demi-god tier, same feeling about Sivorí, Erico and, one could argue, Kempes. The rest of La Maquina should feature somewhere in there as well, Labruna*, Loustau, maybe Muñoz. Also, a lot of Peruvians rate César Cueto equal or higher than Cubillas. Everything below the demi-god tier becomes too hard, because honestly I just don't feel right about throwing people like Valderrama, Beckham, Lampard, Ardiles, etc. together with names like RVN, Rep, Souness, Bochini, etc. but you can hardly create a "sub-tier" everytime you feel that way because you'd end up with hundreds of them...
*I vaguely remember one of your arguments about his and Erico's scoring records, but I don't think it compares unfavourably in the sense that Labruna wasn't a CF and Erico was. BTW, many of Erico's contemporaries had similar scoring records in La Primera (just not the same incredible peak as he had between 1937 and 1939); Varallo, Zozaya, Lángara, Barrera, Bernabé Ferreyra, his fellow countryman Cáceres. From all that Varallo and Labruna stand out, because they weren't traditional strikers.
IMO, Spencer at least belongs on the demi-god tier, same feeling about Sivorí, Erico and, one could argue, Kempes. The rest of La Maquina should feature somewhere in there as well, Labruna*, Loustau, maybe Muñoz. Also, a lot of Peruvians rate César Cueto equal or higher than Cubillas. Everything below the demi-god tier becomes too hard, because honestly I just don't feel right about throwing people like Valderrama, Beckham, Lampard, Ardiles, etc. together with names like RVN, Rep, Souness, Bochini, etc. but you can hardly create a "sub-tier" everytime you feel that way because you'd end up with hundreds of them...
*I vaguely remember one of your arguments about his and Erico's scoring records, but I don't think it compares unfavourably in the sense that Labruna wasn't a CF and Erico was. BTW, many of Erico's contemporaries had similar scoring records in La Primera (just not the same incredible peak as he had between 1937 and 1939); Varallo, Zozaya, Lángara, Barrera, Bernabé Ferreyra, his fellow countryman Cáceres. From all that Varallo and Labruna stand out, because they weren't traditional strikers.
I'd put Law on the same level as Charlton. He was a genius and more or less invented the 'bicycle kick'
I had put down Pedernera but cut him out as it was getting way too long as an Argie omission list and most wouldn't care at all, but yes, he should be there. Walter Gomez didn't even cross my mind, certainly not ahead of those I put down for Uruguay, and bear in mind I deliberately missed the likes of Forlán...
I would agree. Again, I didn't want to push it with those that hadn't been included. You could even argue Andrade as a GOAT if you consider the revolutionary criteria. He had a massive impact on the game, just look at how many Brazilians of African origin feature there... But it's certainly non-footballing impact and his position doesn't warrant God-status, otherwise I would have Facchetti up there as well.
I've said before Spencer was every bit as good as Eusebio and certainly should be a demi-God running him close, but handicapped by the lack of World Cup appearances.
Sívori suffers because he moved to Italy and also missed out on an international career as a result. Cracking player though. I don't rate Kempes at demi-god, but then I don't rate him anywhere near as highly as others do.
I'm going with my Uruguayan perspective there. I remember Cueto, but it was always Cubillas the one we were concerned about. Mind you, I distinctly remember Cueto being the one tearing us a new one in one of the WCQ where they left us out of the WC. I think it was for the '78 one. Ultimately, I relegated Cueto and Chumpitaz in favour of the standout Peruvian pair.
I had the same problem, as I started listing those missing I started remembering some of those I cut out and it wasn't quite right. That was another reason I started leaving people like Labruna out on the basis another player was representing his team/era.
It feels odd though to stick Beckham, Gerrard and Lampard as greats when they jointly achieved the square root of feck all for England. Maybe Lampard should be there out of those three, just for the Chelsea take on it. Liverpool are already well represented (I would pick Souness ahead of Gerrard myself).
It was about peak forms and Erico's peak was considerably better than anyone else's. I agree Varallo and Labruna would be the others standing out. With Erico they would be the three top goalscorers in that period for the three main teams. I opted for Moreno as a representative of La Máquina and Erico as the top goalscorer, just to keep it simple really.