Problem is I don't see those CBs holding out at the back by sitting back. Under constant pressure, they'll be picked apart by Gio's attack. It's the only area on the park between both teams that isn't quite upto the mark here. The same cannot be said about Puyol and Ruggeri who have a better chance of defending against Enigma's attack. I rate the Puyol-Ruggeri-Deschamps axis highly, and it's precisely where it should be to minimise the oppo threat. Whereas playing one up front and attacking in wide and deeper areas was precisely what killed the three at the back formation. It would have been fine against wing forwards or a front two but against players with the wingmanship of the likes of Nedved and Litti it's a major area of concern.
Three Leagues Draft - Grand Finale
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
My view is necessarily biased because I have probably seen more than 150 games of Zlatan: Serie A peak with Milan in 2011/12. I guess all his teammates will work for him. Ballack is able to provide a good support. So, Lucio-Helmer would suffer.
On the other hand, Enigma-Snow offers much more variety, pace and unpredictability.
The most offensive team is logically rewarded.
Deserved victory for the winners of the draft.
@Gio you can't always win
On the other hand, Enigma-Snow offers much more variety, pace and unpredictability.
The most offensive team is logically rewarded.
Deserved victory for the winners of the draft.
@Gio you can't always win
Yes, it was widely accepted at the time that Van der Sar had gone right off the boil and it was pretty obvious from the plentiful supply of Italian football that was on the TV at the time. That seems to be the only defence of Van der Sar's performances: the fact Juventus didn't concede a lot of goals in his first season. Surely if that was the case he wouldn't have been under threat for his Holland place at Euro 2000, wouldn't have been asked to get his eyes tested by the club, wouldn't have been coined Van der Gol, and would have gone to a better team than Fulham at the end of his stint?
Obviously I'd agree that there aren't any big outfield issues to get hot and bothered about. I certainly don't agree with either of those two points. Firstly Zlatan is the one striker most suited to this set-up. It's an odd point to suggest he wouldn't be, and odder still to suggest he'd want a #10 next to him. Him and Messi jostling for the same space is what did for his Barca stint. He has the physicality, presence and technical ability to function as a central pivot, a modern line leader who offers goals and creativity.
Secondly, it's pretty obvious Littbarski can function as a wide midfielder-cum-winger. Here is his profile from Kicker:
A dribbling prodigy of small stature, Pierre Littbarski began on the right wing but later became an offensive midfielder. In both guises, he was one of the best players ever seen in German football. Like Lippens he was a joker to whom professional football was basically the same as street football. His low center of gravity and his bowlegs favored his dribbling immensely. He was very dangerous coming from midfield, a very able short passer who always wanted to feel the ball at his feet. A typical ‘late Littbarski’ move was taking a run from midfield advancing towards the box where he would dummy one or two opponents with his quick sidestepping and then finish by bending the ball in a mean way towards the far corner of the goal. With his shooting technique, he proved to be a formidable taker of freekicks, too, and was an exceptional player in one-on-one situations. Possessing considerable stamina, Littbarski was a perfect fit for the German national team of the 1980s, yet not always an undisputed starter. Littbarski was right-footed but with a very good left foot, thus he was seen moving a lot between the flanks without his actions losing punch.
1978 not considered [12/78]
1979 not considered [07/79]
1979 broad circle [12/79] [#3 Outside Right]
1980 broad circle [07/80] [#4 Outside Right]
1980 considered_ [12/80] [Outside Right]
1981 broad circle [07/81] [#4 Outside Right]
1981 Internat. Cl. [12/81] [#2 Outside Right]
1982 World Class [07/82] [#1 Outside Right]
1982 Internat. Cl. [07/82] [#1 Outside Left]
1982 Internat. Cl. [12/82] [#2 Winger]
1983 broad circle [07/83] [#2 Winger]
1983 broad circle [12/83] [#5 Winger]
1984 considered_ [07/84] [Winger]
1984 broad circle [12/84] [#2 Winger]
1985 World Class [07/85] [#1 Winger]
1985 broad circle [12/85] [#2 Forward]
1986 Internat. Cl. [07/86] [#3 Forward]
1986 played abroad [12/86]
1987 played abroad [07/87]
1987 Internat. Cl. [12/87] [#1 Offensive Midfielder]
1988 broad circle [07/88] [#8 Offensive Midfielder]
1988 not considered [12/88]
1989 Internat. Cl. [07/89] [#1 Offensive Midfielder]
1989 Internat. Cl. [12/89] [#1 Offensive Midfielder]
1990 Internat. Cl. [07/90] [#1 Offensive Midfielder]
1990 not considered [12/90] 1991 considered_ [07/91] [Offensive Midfielder]
1991 broad circle [12/91] [#15 Offensive Midfielder]
1992 broad circle [07/92] [#12 Offensive Midfielder]
1992 considered_ [12/92] [Central Offensive Midfielder]
1993 broad circle [07/93] [#7 Central Offensive Midfielder]
1993 considered_ [12/93] [Central Offensive Midfielder]
1994 considered_ [07/94] [Central Offensive Midfielder]
1994 not considered [12/94]
1995 not considered
1996 not considered
1997 not considered [07/97]
1978 not considered [12/78]
1979 not considered [07/79]
1979 broad circle [12/79] [#3 Outside Right]
1980 broad circle [07/80] [#4 Outside Right]
1980 considered_ [12/80] [Outside Right]
1981 broad circle [07/81] [#4 Outside Right]
1981 Internat. Cl. [12/81] [#2 Outside Right]
1982 World Class [07/82] [#1 Outside Right]
1982 Internat. Cl. [07/82] [#1 Outside Left]
1982 Internat. Cl. [12/82] [#2 Winger]
1983 broad circle [07/83] [#2 Winger]
1983 broad circle [12/83] [#5 Winger]
1984 considered_ [07/84] [Winger]
1984 broad circle [12/84] [#2 Winger]
1985 World Class [07/85] [#1 Winger]
1985 broad circle [12/85] [#2 Forward]
1986 Internat. Cl. [07/86] [#3 Forward]
1986 played abroad [12/86]
1987 played abroad [07/87]
1987 Internat. Cl. [12/87] [#1 Offensive Midfielder]
1988 broad circle [07/88] [#8 Offensive Midfielder]
1988 not considered [12/88]
1989 Internat. Cl. [07/89] [#1 Offensive Midfielder]
1989 Internat. Cl. [12/89] [#1 Offensive Midfielder]
1990 Internat. Cl. [07/90] [#1 Offensive Midfielder]
1990 not considered [12/90] 1991 considered_ [07/91] [Offensive Midfielder]
1991 broad circle [12/91] [#15 Offensive Midfielder]
1992 broad circle [07/92] [#12 Offensive Midfielder]
1992 considered_ [12/92] [Central Offensive Midfielder]
1993 broad circle [07/93] [#7 Central Offensive Midfielder]
1993 considered_ [12/93] [Central Offensive Midfielder]
1994 considered_ [07/94] [Central Offensive Midfielder]
1994 not considered [12/94]
1995 not considered
1996 not considered
1997 not considered [07/97]
There is certainly nothing in there that would suggest he isn't at home in this set-up. It would be textbook Littbarski here, the one who scored 15-20 Bundesliga goals 4 seasons in a row for FC Koln, the one who tore up defenders all over the shop.
That's a pretty good defense though isn't it? Strikers are ultimately judged by the number of goals and goalkeepers are judged by number of clean sheets and goals conceded. I have no doubt that VDS' time there is judged more extremely because of his reputation when he joined and who he was replaced with. That's how the human mind works and it goes to overdrive that way when asked to evaluate football players.
Where players end up is highly situational for any given transfer. Maradona left Barcelona and joined a team that finished 1 point above relegation the previous season. You know well that SAF regretted not buying VDS before he joined and after he left Juventus. Juventus VDS is still better than most keepers just like De Gea, for all his faults in his 1st season, was still better than most keepers in the PL at the time.
I don't have a problem at all with Zlatan in that setup. I merely pointed outside his Barca stint he has always had a #10 or another striker next to him.
As for Littbarski, don't have a problem with him either. Also just merely pointed out that he typically didn't play in a 4-2-3-1 as a winger. It's a simple tactic sure and it's one that wasn't used much when he played but he does have to perform more defensive duties in that setup where as for Germany and Köln the times were different and certain players got a pass on those duties from time to time, especially with the very frequent defensive setups.
What the hell is the point of doing this if all we are going to do is recreate the exact same teams? I can browse Google for that.
Can you not see their skillsets and if they fit the role or not? e.g. Why exactly does Zlatan need a partner?
The case of VDS is interesting:
- Ajax: one of the best GK in the world, so impressive
- Juventus: disappointing but there was Buffon behind
- Fulham: move worth £7.1 million - disappointing
- Manchester United: move worth £2 million - one of the best GK in the world
- Ajax: one of the best GK in the world, so impressive
- Juventus: disappointing but there was Buffon behind
- Fulham: move worth £7.1 million - disappointing
- Manchester United: move worth £2 million - one of the best GK in the world
I am of those who think a GK is not a key factor of success in a draft.
There can be any number of reasons behind a good defensive record. A few examples:
- Joe Hart's form went to shit in 2012/13. He made mistakes all over the place. He still won the Golden Glove for the most clean sheets and City conceded the fewest goals in the league. He continued to play poorly in 2013/14, yet City's defensive record was the second best in the league.
- Iker Casillas didn't concede a single goal in the knockout stages of Euro 2008, World Cup 2010 or Euro 2012. Was that because Casillas was brilliant or because Spain were incredible at keeping the ball and had a solid defence to back it up?
- In Van der Sar's record-breaking clean sheet run at Man Utd, how many saves did he actually have to make? It was basically a handful and the credit for the run surely goes down to United's great and organised defensive set up.
I disagree on lot of these accounts.
I think if we take our set up into consideration we have what it is needed to contain Gio's attack if we have to and attack on counter. Let's see - Littbarski/Nedved combo is up against a pretty good match in Cafu(probably the best right back ever) and Alaba who is exactly the type you need for Littbarski. Then we have Ibra in between our CB pair with Hierro lurking and Davids and Modric providing support(one middle the other middle or wide depending where the ball is). Having in mind the diamond set up our CM pair besides being versatile and tactically excellent does need to have the legs to cover that ground and do they have it - absolutely if you ask me.
On the other hand it's clear that we have an edge in the full back department as Cafu/Alaba are better as individuals and as a pair compared to Reuter and Abidal. Abidal is more conservative so I doubt he'll add that attacking option for overlapping that Gio needs. Now Reuter can, but he also has to put an eye on Villa if he drops left.
I do believe especially in this set up we're pretty well matched to do what is asked.
Amen
In a back four, with your wide areas being handled by other wide players, sure. Not in a diamond, no chance. All it does is put immense pressure on the CBs to constantly defend out wide. Not only your CBs aren't well suited for that, they're not final worthy either. Against Zlatan's intelligence and shooting range and technique, he'll absolutely bombard that goal, and even a prime VDS struggled when the defense leaked shots, let alone the Juve version.
The Ruggeri reinforcement was custom-designed for this game. A warrior who imposed the greatest when in compact, counter-attacking set-ups. And Deschamps is just the man you'd want mopping up in front. I do think we've got a wee edge there relative to the opposition centre-half partnership in Lucio and Helmer, who were both very good but not quite as collectively imposing.
With PSG, Zlatan plays without a #10 or specific support striker. I voted for Gio because I see the environment positive for him
However, I do understand the debate.
The case of Griezmann (unfortunately unavailable for the next draft) is interesting:
- Probably league peak as a support striker
- ... but he is so brilliant that he can excel on the left or right.
However, I do understand the debate.
The case of Griezmann (unfortunately unavailable for the next draft
) is interesting:- Probably league peak as a support striker
- ... but he is so brilliant that he can excel on the left or right.
We do have Hierro dropping back which helps our central area as well and relieves pressure. In terms of numbers Gio will attack with Nedved/Littbarski out wide, Ibra middle and Ballack rushing in with Veron a bit deeper and Deschamps deeper than that occupied by Kaka. Reuter will probably overlap but still Villa also can keep him occupied dropping on the left. With all those in mind how many more defenders and midfielders do we need to defend in this set up?
They'll be tough to break down, of course, but they'll be under pressure the whole time simply because you are against two quality wide players and your fullbacks will be running up and down providing width as well. He can stretch play easily with the overlapping fullback, and even without him. There'll be plenty of instance where someone like Alaba will be occupied in midfield and would have to track Reuter, leaving Litti to whom? Lucio? Davids? That's what stretching play does, your players are under more pressure constantly having to shuffle across and creating spaces.
If you are not going to allow your fullbacks to bomb forward as wingbacks then you can forget about scoring a single goal in this game.
It's not the first time Cafu and Alaba will be under pressure by two quality wide players
if either of them bombs forward Nedved and Litti will probably drop back as well, if Alaba is up against Reuter/Litti, Davids will be there to help leaving Modric/Hierro in the middle which is very strong middle, same for the right flank. I don't think we can't cope with a standard 4-3-3 in our diamond set up really. We have the versatile players to play both in wide areas and centrally and we have the legs for it as well.Anyway, well done to @Enigma_87 and @Snow. Very impressive diamond by the final: the additions of Davids and Hierro were game-changers. I didn't make much in the way of meaningful upgrades after the quarter finals by contrast. Probably a couple of lessons for how we manage match threads and value goalkeepers in future drafts.
Thanks @Gio well done for getting to the final and as always drafting an excellent side. Some important lessons learned indeed.
I think you had the best team after the initial drafting but it was really hard to upgrade given the restrictions.
I always wanted to construct a quality diamond not only the standard 4-2-3-1 or thereabouts and happy that it was properly appreciated.
Yeah, I felt that your team peaked a little early - you were easily the best team in the draft for 2 rounds, while Enigma got through his games by the teeth of his skin. But his upgrades improved his team massively.
Sheva, Cafu, Hierro and Davids. All top drawer.
Should've never let Sheva slip that reinforcement window.
Congrats @Enigma_87 and @Snow . I hope I wasn't over-critical, was never a fan of Lucio at Bayern and never will be.
Tough luck @Gio . Almost a 5th feather to your cap.
Tough luck @Gio . Almost a 5th feather to your cap.
yeah pretty much it. I think we had real tough draw as well - Tuppet's side and Aldo/Stain were excellent and really hard to be up against them. Skizzo/Pat were also very tough to go through so all in all every match was competitive and went to the wire.
No problem mate, as I've said value your input and no grudges held and won't vote against you in future drafts as a revenge voteCongrats @Enigma_87 and @Snow . I hope I wasn't over-critical, was never a fan of Lucio at Bayern and never will be.
Tough luck @Gio . Almost a 5th feather to your cap.
, just how I see them as always One thing learned for keepers for sure - pick a relatively unknown one with little record to be found and you're safe
I like Lucio and to be fair rate him the same as the other top CB in the pool bar Bergomi but everyone to his own.
You've cracked it. I remember reaching the final of an all time draft with this marvel right here.
I am at work now so cannot really elaborate on my point enough, but I will try my best here.
@Joga Bonito
My overall point was not pertaining to a lack of work rate or anything of that sort. Verón-Ballack-Deschamps is one of the most hardworking midfields I have ever seen in a draft. My point initially was that the midfield didn't contain enough defensive prowess to deal with EnigSnow's diamond.
Having looked back at that, I realise that I may have underrated Ballack's defensive contribution. He really was quite a complete player and a perfect foil for Deschamps and Verón. Still, though, I would like to hold onto my point that EnigSnow's midfield had the advantage.
RE: the diamond dilemma, it wasn't because of a mere 4 vs. 3. It was because EnigSnow's midfield worked very well with each other. Both Modric and Davids had the energy levels, tactical awareness, and technique to play in a diamond setup. Hierro is the perfect player to play as the deepest midfielder, being an outlet for the defence and wide midfielders with his passing and technique. Davids is perfect for supporting Alaba when Gio's team goes down their right side. The only weakness I notice from any team is Gio's right side. Villa was amazing at running the channels, and with Davids and Alaba both there, the overloads could cause Gio problems.
Speaking of Villa, we should keep in mind that the front 3 in a good diamond always has 1-2 players who are strong at working the flanks. Here, Villa and Sheva are both great at that with their movement and technical all-roundedness (keep in mind that Sheva did play as a winger before AC Milan, so there is that familiarity present that he demonstrated time and again in Italy). If the diamond was all about the wide midfielders and wing backs providing the width, then yeah, it will succumb to a good 4-3-3, but a diamond with good flank players at each domain of the team (defence, midfield, forward) is very hard to contain as AC Milan demonstrated under Ancelotti for several years.
@Aldo
The deep back line was about Gio's back line, not EnigSnow's. I still stand by that point as well. You cannot afford to let someone like Cafu be given the opportunity to attack so often. IMO, if he was to be pegged back, he would be less effective, overall.
@Joga Bonito
My overall point was not pertaining to a lack of work rate or anything of that sort. Verón-Ballack-Deschamps is one of the most hardworking midfields I have ever seen in a draft. My point initially was that the midfield didn't contain enough defensive prowess to deal with EnigSnow's diamond.
Having looked back at that, I realise that I may have underrated Ballack's defensive contribution. He really was quite a complete player and a perfect foil for Deschamps and Verón. Still, though, I would like to hold onto my point that EnigSnow's midfield had the advantage.
RE: the diamond dilemma, it wasn't because of a mere 4 vs. 3. It was because EnigSnow's midfield worked very well with each other. Both Modric and Davids had the energy levels, tactical awareness, and technique to play in a diamond setup. Hierro is the perfect player to play as the deepest midfielder, being an outlet for the defence and wide midfielders with his passing and technique. Davids is perfect for supporting Alaba when Gio's team goes down their right side. The only weakness I notice from any team is Gio's right side. Villa was amazing at running the channels, and with Davids and Alaba both there, the overloads could cause Gio problems.
Speaking of Villa, we should keep in mind that the front 3 in a good diamond always has 1-2 players who are strong at working the flanks. Here, Villa and Sheva are both great at that with their movement and technical all-roundedness (keep in mind that Sheva did play as a winger before AC Milan, so there is that familiarity present that he demonstrated time and again in Italy). If the diamond was all about the wide midfielders and wing backs providing the width, then yeah, it will succumb to a good 4-3-3, but a diamond with good flank players at each domain of the team (defence, midfield, forward) is very hard to contain as AC Milan demonstrated under Ancelotti for several years.
@Aldo
The deep back line was about Gio's back line, not EnigSnow's. I still stand by that point as well. You cannot afford to let someone like Cafu be given the opportunity to attack so often. IMO, if he was to be pegged back, he would be less effective, overall.
Congrats @Enigma_87 and @Snow
Congratulations to @Enigma_87 and @Snow for a great draft win.
@Gio: your team was quite good as well. It wasn't easy for me to decide on who would win. Well done to you as well.
@Gio: your team was quite good as well. It wasn't easy for me to decide on who would win. Well done to you as well.
Did you really pick van der Sar because you've watched him during those 2 seasons and fully aware of the perceived struggles thought, I want him over everyone else anyway? It's hard to believe that you didn't just forget about (or weren't aware of?) his problems at Juve and really went for him because of his big name and great reputation in general.
I mean, do you honestly believe he was a better goalkeeper in Serie A for Juve than for example Peruzzi, who was picked after van der Sar?
Thanks all guys, best of luck in the next one(for those playing), just went through the pool and should be cracking one as well.
To be absolutely honest I didn't put much thought behind it due to always keepers getting no attention at all. We discussed him briefly but generally picked him due to being Dutch and we already had many Brazilians in the team.
His record at Juve was solid in terms of goals conceded as well, so besides his reputation I thought he'd be solid enough to do the job especially considering some of the other keepers in the pool and only Zenga and Kahn being stand out ones and in their peak. Sure he had couple of howlers but never lost his place and generally he was hurt more based on his reputation and expectation of him.
Peruzzi - aye he was a safe choice but again I didn't think it will be that much of an issue having in mind that in past drafts keepers are barely mentioned in the write ups even.
We had the chance to pick another keeper after harms brought it up, but at the end we went with Luis Gustavo and he had important role in the game against Aldo so it turned out well at the end.
Of course lesson learned and probably in the end puts stress on the keeper choice in next draft as well.
To be absolutely honest I didn't put much thought behind it due to always keepers getting no attention at all. We discussed him briefly but generally picked him due to being Dutch and we already had many Brazilians in the team.
His record at Juve was solid in terms of goals conceded as well, so besides his reputation I thought he'd be solid enough to do the job especially considering some of the other keepers in the pool and only Zenga and Kahn being stand out ones and in their peak. Sure he had couple of howlers but never lost his place and generally he was hurt more based on his reputation and expectation of him.
Peruzzi - aye he was a safe choice but again I didn't think it will be that much of an issue having in mind that in past drafts keepers are barely mentioned in the write ups even.
We had the chance to pick another keeper after harms brought it up, but at the end we went with Luis Gustavo and he had important role in the game against Aldo so it turned out well at the end.
Of course lesson learned and probably in the end puts stress on the keeper choice in next draft as well.
@Enigma_87 @Snow
Well done guys. Fantastic team, especially in midfield and attack.
The diamond system makes a lot of sense given your pitbull Davids and your offensive LBs
Given the league restrictions, it was hard for you to have stronger CB.
I changed my mind so many times.
Well done guys. Fantastic team, especially in midfield and attack.
The diamond system makes a lot of sense given your pitbull Davids and your offensive LBs
Given the league restrictions, it was hard for you to have stronger CB.
I changed my mind so many times.
Thanks, mate.
Went through the pool a lot of times for that CB spot, but really don't think we could upgrade on it without losing in midfield/attack or Cafu. For a diamond given the pool I think that was pretty much it (apart from Kahn at keeper of course).
If we were to change the formation yea we could've implemented Muller or Littbarski as wide man with Alaba/Lizarazu at left back but from the one we employed from the start IMO there aren't many options to upgrade.
well given your first pick in the other draft so far you're the favorite IMO.
A league season is 38 games. That's a lot of Euros and WCs combined.
Golden glove only shows the number of clean sheets, it doesn't factor in the number of goals conceded. You have to look at both. Hart won the Golden glove by conceding more than 50% than VDS. A huge difference.
I'm not going to comment on you downplaying VDS' achievements at United. I'll count it as draft argument.
With all being said and done it didn't really matter who played in goal and it never has in any of these drafts. Bill Foulkes almost won a sheep draft against a team without any sheeps. Perhaps it's best to play a draft where you pick 10 players and assume the keepers are similar. Their discussion is boring because frankly almost no one cares about keepers. They're almost always pretty decent anyways with only a handful that could possibly make a difference.
Cheers @Downcast @BBRBB @mazhar13 @Edgar Allan Pillow @Aldo @RedTiger and @Gio for the match. Great draft overall with little between many teams to begin with as witnessed by many close results.
Credit to @Enigma_87 for the team. He spearheaded it all and did the write-up. I was merely the Giggs to his van Gaal.
Credit to @Enigma_87 for the team. He spearheaded it all and did the write-up. I was merely the Giggs to his van Gaal.
You were his giggs? So you were trying to undermine him at every opportunity? Lol