Three Leagues Draft - Grand Finale

[Snow]

I'm not really arsed about that one. But if you're pulling up this bollocks about Chilavert, then it needs to be placed into some sort of realistic context.


They won a World Cup together. Reuter as right wing back, Littbarski as a wide-roaming attacking midfielder.


They played six seasons together with Abidal largely playing in a back three unit to allow Alves the opportunity to push on.

I'm saying that those aren't all proven partnerships. How are we supposed to know that Ruggeri and Chilavert are a proven partnership? They played a single season together for Velez. I doubt a single one here has seen a game.

There was one game where both Littbarski and Reuter started the same game and in that game Reuter wasn't even a wing back.

 

[Gio]

I'm saying that those aren't all proven partnerships. How are we supposed to know that Ruggeri and Chilavert are a proven partnership? They played a single season together for Velez. I doubt a single one here has seen a game.

There was one game where both Littbarski and Reuter started the same game and in that game Reuter wasn't even a wing back.

Well exactly. And the same applies for Chilavert at Zaragoza - which is why all that criticism seems absurd. It's pure invention. A distraction tactic to make out his performances were somehow comparable to Van der Sar's shoddy spell in Serie A.

If we mark the keepers in this draft out of 10, Kahn could feasibly be rated as a 10. Then you'd probably have someone like Zenga or Toldo at 9. Chilavert at his peak would be a 9, but here would likely be a 7-8. Van der Sar on his Juve form would be nowhere, probably a 4 or 5.

 

[Enigma_87]

Well exactly. And the same applies for Chilavert at Zaragoza - which is why all that criticism seems absurd. It's pure invention. A distraction tactic to make out his performances were somehow comparable to Van der Sar's shoddy spell in Serie A.

If we mark the keepers in this draft out of 10, Kahn could feasibly be rated as a 10. Then you'd probably have someone like Zenga or Toldo at 9. Chilavert at his peak would be a 9, but here would likely be a 7-8. Van der Sar on his Juve form would be nowhere, probably a 4 or 5.

I don't think that's fair at all. Why not 1-2 while we're at it?

Chilavert was sold after 8 games in his 3rd season. Still I don't think you've addressed that?

Even from your source it is cited he failed to settle and was problematic for the team.

 

[Fergus' son]

I'm not really arsed about that one. But if you're pulling up this bollocks about Chilavert, then it needs to be placed into some sort of realistic context.


They won a World Cup together. Reuter as right wing back, Littbarski as a wide-roaming attacking midfielder.

They played six seasons together with Abidal largely playing in a back three unit to allow Alves the opportunity to push on.

Irrelevant as this is a league draft, by your own rationale CLs and WCs don't count here.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Shameless. But what can you do? They've not only managed to get away with it, they've effectively made it too bloody tedious a point to even bring up.

 

[Gio]

I don't think that's fair at all. Why not 1-2 while we're at it?

Chilavert was sold after 8 games in his 3rd season. Still I don't think you've addressed that?

He moved to a bigger team at the time in Velez Sarsfield. Within 3 years he'd won the Copa Libertadores and defeated Capello's Barcelona-destroying Milan team in the World Club Cup. It was a different era when the top South American teams were the match of the top European ones. From 1978 to 1988, South American teams won the Intercontinental Cup 9 times to Europe's twice. Watch the Flamengo v Liverpool match for instance to show that even though Liverpool were the clear top dogs in Europe, Flamengo were on another level. There is of course an argument that the South American teams took that tie more seriously, which may have some merit, but the basic point rings true that he moved to a better team in Velez.

Irrelevant as this is a league draft, by your own rationale CLs and WCs don't count here.

Indeed. But we have to intepret how these fantasy teams will work together. So will Reuter and Littbarski strike up a partnership down the right flank? Maybe aye, maybe no, but there is a World Cup trophy to suggest it might work. Happy to ignore those performances in judging the quality of the player, but we know they should gel.

 

[Fergus' son]

Just say it how it is - when it suits your agenda to bring up non league performances you will, and when it doesn't you will dismiss them as irrelevant.

It's the nature of these draft match threads, however it is very tiresome.

 

[Gio]

Just say it how it is - when it suits your agenda to bring up non league performances you will, and when it doesn't you will dismiss them as irrelevant.

It's the nature of these draft match threads, however it is very tiresome.

Don't be so defensive - the whole thing was brought up because Chilavert was apparently going to surprise his defenders with his antics in the sticks.

 

[Physiocrat]

Going for Gio 2-1. I can see him scoring on the counter and holding off that front three for most of the game.
Seriously close though

 

[Enigma_87]

He moved to a bigger team at the time in Velez Sarsfield. Within 3 years he'd won the Copa Libertadores and defeated Capello's Barcelona-destroying Milan team in the World Club Cup. It was a different era when the top South American teams were the match of the top European ones. From 1978 to 1988, South American teams won the Intercontinental Cup 9 times to Europe's twice. Watch the Flamengo v Liverpool match for instance to show that even though Liverpool were the clear top dogs in Europe, Flamengo were on another level. There is of course an argument that the South American teams took that tie more seriously, which may have some merit, but the basic point rings true that he moved to a better team in Velez.

Well I'm pretty sure that if he was going to a bigger club due to his performances surely he'd also stayed at Europe? Cmoon mate, I can see making it a point if you have Zenga or Kahn on the other side and hence having an advantage in that area, but Chilavert who has like 10 games more than VdS in those 2 season (and 8 games) seems a bit too much IMO. If we put them both at 9 at peak level 2 levers below at 7 seems fair to me given how off they were at their peak during that time. Sure VdS had issues but to neglect Chilavert having as well, even when your source on the previous page wrote that he failed to settle and went back to SA shouln't be taken as it is.

As for Valdes/Chilavert comparison I recall Valdes smacking the ball in Villa's body and another brilliant assist that resulted to a goal with his sweeper keeping at the time. Not that relevant of course but still, Zaragoza fans were feeling uneasy when he got the ball and even Chilavert said so in his quotes.

Having Chilavert playing at "high level" is also confusing in the way you are trying to big him up. Still at that time when he was at Zaragoza he had like couple of matches for the national team and good 3-4 years away from winning his first personal accolade as a keeper.

 

[Fergus' son]

Don't be so defensive - the whole thing was brought up because Chilavert was apparently going to surprise his defenders with his antics in the sticks.

It's the truth, nothing to do with me being 'defensive', which is a baffling accusation.

 

[Gio]

Well I'm pretty sure that if he was going to a bigger club due to his performances surely he'd also stayed at Europe? Cmoon mate, I can see making it a point if you have Zenga or Kahn on the other side and hence having an advantage in that area, but Chilavert who has like 10 games more than VdS in those 2 season (and 8 games) seems a bit too much IMO. If we put them both at 9 at peak level 2 levers below at 7 seems fair to me given how off they were at their peak during that time. Sure VdS had issues but to neglect Chilavert having as well, even when your source on the previous page wrote that he failed to settle and went back to SA shouln't be taken as it is.

As for Valdes/Chilavert comparison I recall Valdes smacking the ball in Villa's body and another brilliant assist that resulted to a goal with his sweeper keeping at the time. Not that relevant of course but still, Zaragoza fans were feeling uneasy when he got the ball and even Chilavert said so in his quotes.

Having Chilavert playing at "high level" is also confusing in the way you are trying to big him up. Still at that time when he was at Zaragoza he had like couple of matches for the national team and good 3-4 years away from winning his first personal accolade as a keeper.

What's with the Eurocentric take on it? 1991 is not 2014. It's not like today when the best South American teams get pummeled by Europe's best. The top teams were on much the same level and the EU clubs were only allowed 3 foreigners. Hence why the top South American sides were strong outfits and more than competitive when faced with European competition. Chilavert moving to Velez was a step up at the time.

The limited sources on Chilavert's time in Spain suggest he did well. Kaiser Magazine said he played at a high level and made a very good impression. In a biographical profile, Sportskeeda called it "an encouraging three-year spell with the Spaniards". Meanwhile, his newspaper ratings ranked him in the top 5 foreigners in the whole league during 3 months of the 1988/89 season.

Whereas Van der Sar's failure at Juventus is widely recognised and accepted by fans, media and the man himself, the first I've heard of Chilavert being well under par at Zaragoza is on the Caf today. After all these years it seems rather odd that view emerges on this thread today.

 

[Enigma_87]

What's with the Eurocentric take on it? 1991 is not 2014. It's not like today when the best South American teams get pummeled by Europe's best. The top teams were on much the same level and the EU clubs were only allowed 3 foreigners. Hence why the top South American sides were strong outfits and more than competitive when faced with European competition. Chilavert moving to Velez was a step up at the time.

The limited sources on Chilavert's time in Spain suggest he did well. Kaiser Magazine said he played at a high level and made a very good impression. In a biographical profile, Sportskeeda called it "an encouraging three-year spell with the Spaniards". Meanwhile, his newspaper ratings ranked him in the top 5 foreigners in the whole league during 3 months of the 1988/89 season.

Whereas Van der Sar's failure at Juventus is widely recognised and accepted by fans, media and the man himself, the first I've heard of Chilavert being well under par at Zaragoza is on the Caf today. After all these years it seems rather odd that view emerges on this thread today.

I think you're missing the point. The topic is not whether and how South American teams fared in the early 1990's but why Chilavert moved on after just 2 seasons at Zaragoza midway(and even not midway but at the start of it) through the season.

Kaiser Magazine which is as well your source that you're quoting ended the article with this(rough google translate)

For the team worked as an extra man but for the fans, their attitudes, at a stage where you could still delay the ball to the goalkeeper, looked more like a suicide. In 1990-91 the situation changed. It had become international a year earlier before, in August 1989 and his character was beginning to hit the club. He returned to Argentina to begin the most successful stage of his career.

Which is pretty much exactly the opposite of what you are saying here.

When you put VdS and the media and fans to the perspective we should account the media highlight and how much much much more bigged up was VdS at the time, compared to young lad coming from South America that wasn't even capped at international level at the time he went to Zaragoza. There is a huge difference in expectation, yet that is not accounted?

I've gone through the highlights on youtube of Zaragoza games and selected some of his shaky decisions, yet we should neglect that as well?

 

[Enigma_87]

Going for Gio 2-1. I can see him scoring on the counter and holding off that front three for most of the game.
Seriously close though

Well if we score first I can see our team closing the free spaces and hitting Gio's team on the counter. With both Lucio and Helmer excellent in the air and only Zlatan as focal point of the attack if we take the lead I pretty much like our chances to finish it off

 

[Gio]

I've been up front from the off that Chilavert's best spell in his career was at Velez Sarsfield. That's consistent with what the Kaiser Magazine says. As I said, he'd get a 7/8 out of 10 with his career peak being a 9. Seems fair and consistent with those sources I've provided above.

We've already been over the point that he initiated a change in how Europeans viewed keepers. As I said already:

Chilavert was the first in a new breed of sweeper keepers. As the Kaiser Magazine put it, he was effectively an extra player in possession. Playing like that in the 1980s was of course going to raise a few eyebrows, but that's little different from Manuel Neuer's sweeping causing conservative-minded types to get all hot and bothered. If teams passed around the back in the 1980s in the way that they routinely do nowadays, the fans then would have lost the plot. Again it's no reflection on his performance level. What it means in this game is that we have someone who is great on the ball and alive to the through-ball. Sure once every season or two there might be a mistake in there from having that aggressive ball-playing approach from the back, but it's a small price to pay for the week in, week out benefits it brings.

And he's probably got the best left foot of any goalkeeper ever, perhaps the best left peg on the park. Of course we'd want to make use of that playing out from the back.

 

[Enigma_87]

I've been up front from the off that Chilavert's best spell in his career was at Velez Sarsfield. That's consistent with what the Kaiser Magazine says. As I said, he'd get a 7/8 out of 10 with his career peak being a 9. Seems fair and consistent with those sources I've provided above.

We've already been over the point that he initiated a change in how Europeans viewed keepers. As I said already:


And he's probably got the best left foot of any goalkeeper ever, perhaps the best left peg on the park. Of course we'd want to make use of that playing out from the back.

I've been up front with VDS as well, never bigged him up to be on the top form of his life for any shape or form. With all being said he still conceded almost half of the goals the Juve defence did in their previous year, and was pretty consistent in keeping clean sheets - less than goal per game for both his seasons. If we take into consideration Chilavert and how he conceded 52 compared to 42 the previous season and Zaragoza plummeting in the table to 9th, yet putting him on 8th(with 9 overall) seems off the mark to me.

In relation to Kaiser magazine I think what they've written at the end - that his character was beginning to hit the club, was more the reason why he was sold, rather than his excellent performances and then going to the bigger club in Argentina.

As for having the best left foot on the park I tend to disagree as well, but being a bit irrelevant I don't think it will contribute to the match up really.

 

[Gio]

I've been up front with VDS as well, never bigged him up to be on the top form of his life for any shape or form. With all being said he still conceded almost half of the goals the Juve defence did in their previous year, and was pretty consistent in keeping clean sheets - less than goal per game for both his seasons. If we take into consideration Chilavert and how he conceded 52 compared to 42 the previous season and Zaragoza plummeting in the table to 9th, yet putting him on 8th(with 9 overall) seems off the mark to me.

Obviously Chilavert is going to concede more goals with relative Spanish no-marks rather than serial winners and defensively solid legends like Ferrara, Montero and Davids in front of him. For him moving on, yes it could have been his in-your-face personality that hastened his exit. He was a madman - I wouldn't be surprised at all if he fell out with some big cheese in Zaragoza or in the Spanish FA. Going by what we know, it's more likely that than his actual goalkeeping ability at the time.

 

[Enigma_87]

Obviously Chilavert is going to concede more goals with relative Spanish no-marks rather than serial winners and defensively solid legends like Ferrara, Montero and Davids in front of him. For him moving on, yes it could have been his in-your-face personality that hastened his exit. He was a madman - I wouldn't be surprised at all if he fell out with some big cheese in Zaragoza or in the Spanish FA. Going by what we know, it's more likely that than his actual goalkeeping ability at the time.

Well after he left the very next year Zaragoza conceded just 41 goals and reached UEFA cup spot with the same Spanish no-marks which was less than either of the 2 full seasons he spent there. Going from what we know he was an issue and that was the probable reason for him to being sold. It's not like selling your key player after just 8 games into the season is it?

I can see VdS being raised as a point if you have Zenga or Kahn on the other side as I've said, but Chilavert? For one - his credentials during that time were nothing close to his peak level, his character and personality was questionable at the time, lacked experience, as already shown made errors in his games. For the record I've went through the first 3-4 pages and there were like 8-9 games at most where I could find highlights and from where those gifs are. I'm sure given we have the proper view of full games he's prone to have many more mistakes than those singled out.

It's unfair also to go by what we know in terms of his goalkeeping especially since we have all watched him in his prime in the same way that VdS is seen here. Having less highlights and sources at our disposal doesn't make Chilavert the more solid one out of the two in that comparison and as I've already said there was gulf in expectations between the two - which is the reason why always VdS will receive much more scrutiny. Fact is you can't put a 4 or 5 on a keeper that kept his place in the team and conceded less than any other keeper in the whole league for those 2 seasons - Buffon, Toldo included

 

[Gio]

The voters will be bored to death with this Chila speculation but, again, here is what the evidence says:

The limited sources on Chilavert's time in Spain suggest he did well. Kaiser Magazine said he played at a high level and made a very good impression. In a biographical profile, Sportskeeda called it "an encouraging three-year spell with the Spaniards". Meanwhile, his newspaper ratings ranked him in the top 5 foreigners in the whole league during 3 months of the 1988/89 season.

Whereas Van der Sar's failure at Juventus is widely recognised and accepted by fans, media and the man himself, the first I've heard of Chilavert being well under par at Zaragoza is on the Caf today.

It's compellingly clear that Van der Sar was a liability though.

When Juventus signed him from Ajax in 1999, he was considered perhaps the world's best goalkeeper. Two years later, he wasn't. At Juve, for the only time in his career, he lost confidence and committed papere - keeper's errors. The Italians dubbed him Van der Gol, for 'goal', Juventus asked him to have his eyes tested. In 2001 they dumped him.

Even the man says so himself:

I accept that I didn't play very well in Italy for the two years. It was lower than my Ajax standard. I don't know why.

Equivalating that kind of shoddy form to Chilavert's impressive spell in Spain is misplaced, and by some distance too.

 

[Enigma_87]

The voters will be bored to death with this Chila speculation but, again, here is what the evidence says:

The limited sources on Chilavert's time in Spain suggest he did well. Kaiser Magazine said he played at a high level and made a very good impression. In a biographical profile, Sportskeeda called it "an encouraging three-year spell with the Spaniards". Meanwhile, his newspaper ratings ranked him in the top 5 foreigners in the whole league during 3 months of the 1988/89 season.

wow that's some evidence. So encouraging three year spell that is 8 out of 9 by your standard? The very same source said that he didn't settle and quoting again:

his character was beginning to hit the club. He returned to Argentina to begin the most successful stage of his career.

Whereas Van der Sar's failure at Juventus is widely recognised and accepted by fans, media and the man himself, the first I've heard of Chilavert being well under par at Zaragoza is on the Caf today.

has it been ever discussed on the Caf? I mean at all?

It's compellingly clear that Van der Sar was a liability though.

Even the man says so himself:

Equivalating that kind of shoddy form to Chilavert's impressive spell in Spain is misplaced, and by some distance too.

So one is considered the best keeper in the world by the time he got at Juve, while the other was a talented keeper at the time, not capped at international level that didn't make it during those 3 years and was sold back to SA. Or are you interpreting that Velez was so bigger than Zaragoza that they couldn't keep their keeper if they wanted to? Double standards at best.

 

[harms]

Ehm, 2 pages with nothing but goalkeeper discussion? And we are saying that they don't play important role in our drafts)

 

[Tuppet]

I think for the next draft we really should implement the moderator idea. This thread is so tedious to read, and with the next draft also going to be about relatively obscure players, I can see the same thing happening there as well.

 

[Joga Bonito]

A really tight match but two aspects swung it for me. The Littbarski-Nedved wing duo which is just about as perfect and complete as it gets - pace, trickery, threat on the counter, goals, creativity, width, ability to cut inside, tactical nous, graft etc. They do face an excellent WB pairing here but these two had the work-rate to square up well against the wing-back combinations prevalent in this draft off the ball, and pose a significant and varied threat on it. Likewise I can see Deschamps playing an integral role for Gio against Enigma's diamond. It is a cracking diamond, no doubt, and this is a match which could have gone either way but I've gone for Gio primarily for those reasons stated above. Open to changing it, depending on the discussions.

Regarding the goalie debate, I'm certain the managers don't enjoy it themselves too but there are times when you get stuck in a round-about in these draft matches and don't wish to drop it, making it seem like as though you've conceded the issue. Hopefully, other tactical points are discussed from henceforth. There is already enough material on VDS and Chilavert in this match thread, for the voters to make a balanced judgement.

 

[mazhar13]

I like both teams. Both are quite well-balanced and solid, and both have great attacking players as well.

However, the Villa-Sheva-Kaká trio for me is absolutely salivating. I honestly struggle to see how Gio's team could contain EnigSnow's long enough. Sure, Gio's midfield is solid, but with two more attack-minded central midfielders in the side, I struggle to see how his midfield can really execute a defensive gameplan. Ballack and Verón were both more attack-minded, and honestly, in this setup, I see Deschamps having too much work to do with Kaká.

Having said that, though, Kaká thrived in a counterattacking setup himself that would punish teams pressing up. The defensive setup that Gio has does bring the best out of Deschamps, but his midfield honestly isn't balanced enough for it with both Veron and Ballack in there together. If either had a more defensively capable partner, then Gio's team would be perfect, but that little detail makes me side for EnigSnow, whose midfield is better balanced.

 

[Moby]

Can't see Enigma's defense holding up to Gio's attack. Hierro in there is perfect to make it a back three with the two fullbacks being released, which is simply not what you need against wide players like Nedved and Litti, they'll easily punish that space on the outside and there'll be ample service for Ibra, and I don't see Enigma's CBs having a chance to hold on against that. It's basically Gio being better suited to stop Enigma's attack than vice versa. A better defense both man to man and tactically.

 

[mazhar13]

Can't see Enigma's defense holding up to Gio's attack. Hierro in there is perfect to make it a back three with the two fullbacks being released, which is simply not what you need against wide players like Nedved and Litti, they'll easily punish that space on the outside and there'll be ample service for Ibra, and I don't see Enigma's CBs having a chance to hold on against that. It's basically Gio being better suited to stop Enigma's attack than vice versa. A better defense both man to man and tactically.

By sitting back, however, EnigSnow's wing backs will be given the license to go forward, and that's perfect, especially for someone like Cafu who's so good going forward. Modric is very good at controlling games even under pressure, and with the support of Hierro and Davids, I can see him flourishing, particularly since Ballack and Veron can leave gaps for one of Modric, Davids, or Hierro to exploit. If Gio's team wins the ball deep in their half, Davids, Modric, and Hierro can all do a good job of winning the ball quickly, and Alaba's someone I rate highly at the back when Cafu bombs forward too.

It's a 4 vs. 3 in midfield (Hierro will definitely push up and get on the ball to start attacks), and Gio needed to get the balance of his midfield spot on in order to maintain control of the game. I feel that, with both Verón and Ballack on the side, there's not enough balance there, leaving Deschamps with potentially too much work to do. Even if someone like Kaká will have a tougher time against a more compact side like Gio's, the fact that EnigSnow has a midfield advantage will play perfectly into Kaká's hands.

 

[Gio]

I feel that, with both Verón and Ballack on the side, there's not enough balance there, leaving Deschamps with potentially too much work to do. Even if someone like Kaká will have a tougher time against a more compact side like Gio's, the fact that EnigSnow has a midfield advantage will play perfectly into Kaká's hands.

I think that's a slight under-estimation of what Veron and Ballack bring to the table. Veron wasn't some flaky playmaker: he flourished in the land of the midfield giants and physically squared up to the best of the breed in ways that you could not envisage today's ball-playing midfielders doing. Just one example of him mixing it with the likes of Davids and Zidane:



Coming up against another all-rounded type in Modric, I'd fancy him to have a slight edge there.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I feel that, with both Verón and Ballack on the side, there's not enough balance there, leaving Deschamps with potentially too much work to do. Even if someone like Kaká will have a tougher time against a more compact side like Gio's, the fact that EnigSnow has a midfield advantage will play perfectly into Kaká's hands.

Hmmm, think you might be underestimating Ballack's defensive game. His goalscoring prowess is most certainly well advertised but his all round game as an attacking B2B was brilliant at his peak. I'd be even be comfortable with Ballack functioning as a B2B in a midfield duo and in this context with Deschamps and Veron, I don't see any want for defensive ability or work-rate for that matter.

Regarding the midfield battle, you could say it's a 4v3 but it rarely manifests itself in such an exact manner imo. For instance, the side midfielders in a diamond have a greater responsibility contributing to the flanks off the ball whilst the midfield trio can more exclusively focus on the middle with two wingers (Littbarski and Nedved at that too) covering the flanks. I also recall Balu making an excellent and illustrated post in one of his older drafts on why the 4v3 aspect in midfield is slightly overrated.

 

[Moby]

Absolutely. Not sure how Ballack is light weight here. He was up there as one of the best box to box cms in the game and he will work his socks off, off the ball, no question. Of course he's no Bernd Schneider to have Davids in his pocket but he'll be fine in this company.

 

[Enigma_87]

A really tight match but two aspects swung it for me. The Littbarski-Nedved wing duo which is just about as perfect and complete as it gets - pace, trickery, threat on the counter, goals, creativity, width, ability to cut inside, tactical nous, graft etc. They do face an excellent WB pairing here but these two had the work-rate to square up well against the wing-back combinations prevalent in this draft off the ball, and pose a significant and varied threat on it. Likewise I can see Deschamps playing an integral role for Gio against Enigma's diamond. It is a cracking diamond, no doubt, and this is a match which could have gone either way but I've gone for Gio primarily for those reasons stated above. Open to changing it, depending on the discussions.

Regarding the goalie debate, I'm certain the managers don't enjoy it themselves too but there are times when you get stuck in a round-about in these draft matches and don't wish to drop it, making it seem like as though you've conceded the issue. Hopefully, other tactical points are discussed from henceforth. There is already enough material on VDS and Chilavert in this match thread, for the voters to make a balanced judgement.

I think having Hierro there and the ability to move into space and drop back is what makes the difference here, because with him dropping back we can keep it compact in the center of the defence and let's not forget that the Littbarski-Nedved duo is up against Alaba/Cafu defensively so it's not like they are not up to their match. Even if they cut in we'll have our both CB's there with the help of Hierro and of course our midfield duo will cover their midfield duo.

Alaba and Cafu as well are excellent in regards to recovering their positions. I can see having an edge in Kaka vs Deschamps especially on counter, Deschamps positionaly is excellent, but prime Kaka will have advantage on pace and can create a lot of problems, while the other midfield pair will have to push up as well when they are on the ball.

Hmmm, think you might be underestimating Ballack's defensive game. His goalscoring prowess is most certainly well advertised but his all round game as an attacking B2B was brilliant at his peak. I'd be even be comfortable with Ballack functioning as a B2B in a midfield duo and in this context with Deschamps and Veron, I don't see any want for defensive ability or work-rate for that matter.

Regarding the midfield battle, you could say it's a 4v3 but it rarely manifests itself in such an exact manner imo. For instance, the side midfielders in a diamond have a greater responsibility contributing to the flanks off the ball whilst the midfield trio can more exclusively focus on the middle with two wingers (Littbarski and Nedved at that too) covering the flanks. I also recall Balu making an excellent and illustrated post in one of his older drafts on why the 4v3 aspect in midfield is slightly overrated.

I think Ballack developed his more his defensive game while at Chelsea where he played deeper, not saying he's light weight of course. I don't think Deschamps will push up and he'd stay back most of the time to watch for Kaka and like mazhar mentioned with Davids, Modric, Hierro in there we can win the ball back quickly and launch a counter.

 

[Balu]

I think Ballack developed his more his defensive game while at Chelsea where he played deeper, not saying he's light weight of course.

Disagree with that. He already played in a midfield two at the World Cup 2006 for example, next to Frings in a 442. His defensive game was already top notch at Leverkusen and Bayern, he just played a more attacking role. The reason he played deeper for Chelsea was because he actually had such a great defensive game and therefore it made a lot more sense to play him as a supporting player to Lampard than the other way round. If Gerrard or Lampard actually had Ballack's well rounded ability, discipline, selflessness and understanding of the game, England might have done better with them as a midfield pair.

 

[Ecstatic]

@Balu

Littbarski versus Alaba: what do you think?

 

[Balu]

I also recall Balu making an excellent and illustrated post in one of his older drafts on why the 4v3 aspect in midfield is slightly overrated.

Yeah, I stand by that. The numerical 4vs3 midfield advantage is misleading. Kaka isn't necessarily a better passing option for one of the other 3 midfielders in the diamond than Nedved or Littbarski are for Gio's midfield three. 4vs3 is not the actual big advantage of a diamond.

There is a numberical advantage in midfield when it's 3vs2 and the 2man midfield needs versatile players somewhere else to make up for it, the same isn't true for 4vs3. In fact, it's the 4man diamond that needs versatile players to make up for the numerical disadvantage on the wings, because 1vs2 in rather open space out wide is the much bigger problem than 3vs4 in an already heavily crowded area, where you defend the space more than the individual player. 3 players in good organisation with good workrate can do that.

The advantages of a midfield diamond in my opinion lie in attack, because if you got your wide midfielders versatile enough to minimise the problem on the wings without exposing the midfield, like for example Davids can do here perfectly (e.g. Gio attacks down his right wing with Reuter/Littbarski, Davids moves wide and leaves Modric+Hierro behind to deal with Ballack, Veron), you can fit a second forward into the team and make life a lot, lot harder for the opposing centerbacks. The demands on the wide midfielders in a diamond are really high though and mistakes in the midfield organisation are more likely and can be punished).

In theory, the 433 (or even better the 343, but the 3man backline demands more individual battles in defense, which means it's a bigger risk) is the most natural football formation in terms of covering the space of the whole pitch in both directions. It needs less versatile players to execute the simple things correctly compared to any other formation. Obviously great players are almost always versatile and can attack/defend in more than just their position, so you tweak and adjust a lot depending on the phase of the game, the specific situation and all that. So you can gain advantages or expose disadvantages in every tactic. It's all about the players and how they fit their roles. The 3vs4 thing isn't one of the disadvantages in a 433 though, never has been. There's a reason why the teams dominating possession almost always play a 3ish midfield or some variation of it.

 

[Balu]

@Balu

Littbarski versus Alaba: what do you think?

could go either way. In general you don't want any fullback left alone 1vs1 against a skilled dribbler like Littbarski of course, but Alaba is a good fit to defend Littbarski.

 

[Ecstatic]

could go either way. In general you don't want any fullback left alone 1vs1 against a skilled dribbler like Littbarski of course, but Alaba is a good fit to defend Littbarski.

Thanks for the answer.

 

[Moby]

it's the 4man diamond that needs versatile players to make up for the numerical disadvantage on the wings

Something that is rarely picked up and why random diamonds show up and get votes. Just convenient to sell.

 

[Enigma_87]

Something that is rarely picked up and why random diamonds show up and get votes. Just convenient to sell.

Versatility is not a problem here tho. Villa, Davids, Alaba, Kaka, Hierro etc have excelled in different positions throughout their careers.

 

[Snow]

Well exactly. And the same applies for Chilavert at Zaragoza - which is why all that criticism seems absurd. It's pure invention. A distraction tactic to make out his performances were somehow comparable to Van der Sar's shoddy spell in Serie A.

If we mark the keepers in this draft out of 10, Kahn could feasibly be rated as a 10. Then you'd probably have someone like Zenga or Toldo at 9. Chilavert at his peak would be a 9, but here would likely be a 7-8. Van der Sar on his Juve form would be nowhere, probably a 4 or 5.

Have you seen a VDS or is your criticism of him mainly also based on reputation which stems mostly from a few games in his 2nd season? And don't give me this quote from him at he wasn't at his best, even Martial has said that he could have done better this season and he's only young and new. Fact remains that VDS kept a lot of clean sheets and conceded only 20 goals in his 1st season which is something that Buffon has only replicated once or twice and he's supposed to be one of the greatest ever.

 

[Moby]

Versatility is not a problem here tho. Villa, Davids, Alaba, Kaka, Hierro etc have excelled in different positions throughout their careers.

Not here of course. I've seen this likes of Scholes used as a wide midfielder in a diamond.

 

[Snow]

Ehm, 2 pages with nothing but goalkeeper discussion? And we are saying that they don't play important role in our drafts)

To be fair, both of the teams are pretty great and lined up very well. I wouldn't call either of them a weakness but they are the only players who's peak is lower in the draft than elsewhere in their career.

Looking at how the two teams are set up I don't know how much better they could be in those two tactics with the criteria given and honestly it's a matter of preference really or perhaps a matter of how well the players picked function in these formations. In my biased opinion we might have the upper hand there because our back 4 usually played in a back 4, most of our midfield and forwards have been known to play in this formation whilst Gio has Littbarski who was mostly used to playing in a 5-3-2 and Zlatan, his best player, usually either has a partner up front or a #10 behind him. That was the case with all his clubs and country except Barca which is one of his low points. He could also have done with a better attacking left back because the midfield is too congested for him. Not big criticisms but could be the difference here.