Thomas Tuchel | Gone to & from Bayern (In Summer)

[B. Munich]

since I am not demanding that Bayern weakens itself but that they should stop targetting players and club officials of their direct rivals everytime somebody manages to challenge them

Which team is a direct rival of Bayern? I don't see any team in the last 11 years that I would call serious rival.
If Bayern doesn't sign the players, then it's City, United, Chelsea or Arsenal. It's not Bayern's fault that other clubs allow release clauses into their contracts or can't keep their talents after one or two good seasons.

 

[Zehner]

Which team is a direct rival of Bayern? I don't see any team in the last 11 years that I would call serious rival.
If Bayern doesn't sign the players, then it's City, United, Chelsea or Arsenal. It's not Bayern's fault that other clubs allow release clauses into their contracts or can't keep their talents after one or two good seasons.

Mate, why are you not adressing my point? Whether you call it rivals or not or whether they would end up at City or whereever doesn't matter. I said that Bayern ruins the brand of the Bundesliga. It is a very real difference whether a player moves to the team that you've been fighting for the title or to a different country. Every fan of a team that challenged you guys and then lost a player to you will confirm you as much. It absolutely kills engagement and motivation. You think "why am I even watching and paying money for this shitshow?"

Honestly, if Wirtz and Alonso would end up in Munich, I'd be happy for them as they deserve to go where they want to for thi season alone but I'd seriously consider to cancel my Sky and DAZN subscriptions afterwards because, you know, I don't see why I should spend as much money, time and engagement on something that is so thoroughly disappointing 99% of the time and likely will be for the next 10 years again. I've got to admit, the EPL elitist fans are pretty annoying but I'm jealous of them because the league they follow is objectively speaking simply much better than the Bundesliga.

 

[Acrobat7]

I'm sorry, I didn't want to keep you from talking Tuchel. Please share with us whatever you wanted to discuss about him

I'm afraid there's a direct correlation between Leverkusen's success and your condescending manner. Here's to both ending next season at the latest.

 

[B. Munich]

I said that Bayern ruins the brand of the Bundesliga.

That's your point, nothing more than your opinion.
I live for over 25 years abroad and I can tell you without Bayern the brand of the Bundesliga would be dead already. In Bangkok, Singapore or Kuala Lumpur nobody cares about other teams maybe bar Dortmund. If only one match a week is broadcasted it will be Bayern against whoever.

The problem isn't Bayern, the issue is the ligue has no team which is actually challenging Bayern, except for an odd season every 10 years.
If other teams can't keep their teams together and develop them, this won't change. Whether their players go to Bayern or abroad doesn't have any major impact on the Bundesliga. However, it determines whether Bayern will be competitive internationally or not.

 

[Zehner]

I'm afraid there's a direct correlation between Leverkusen's success and your condescending manner. Here's to both ending next season at the latest.

Come on, you can't complain about condescending mannerism when it's you who started with the sarcasm. The discussion is interesting IMO. I understand that it is a bit offtopic but it already was when people talked about Alonso in here and if there's nothing you want to discuss about Tuchel, then what's the matter?

I mean, I understand you don't like this discussion but then again you've never really been on the receiving end of the discussed transfer practices so maybe you at least understand that it might be more important to others.

That's your point, nothing more than your opinion.
I live for over 25 years abroad and I can tell you without Bayern the brand of the Bundesliga would be dead already. In Bangkok, Singapore or Kuala Lumpur nobody cares about other teams maybe bar Dortmund. If only one match a week is broadcasted it will be Bayern against whoever.

The problem isn't Bayern, the issue is the ligue has no team which is actually challenging Bayern, except for an odd season every 10 years.
If other teams can't keep their teams together and develop them, this won't change. Whether their players go to Bayern or abroad doesn't have any major impact on the Bundesliga. However, it determines whether Bayern will be competitive internationally or not.

The issue is that the other teams have no room to evolve. All clubs bar Bayern are lacking behind because there is no more domestic growth potential and the Bundesliga as a product is unattractive for international audiences. And it being unattractive for international audiences has much to do with Bayern's habit of dismantling competitors the second they made the league interesting again.

One way or another, the whole system is to implode eventually. The Super League is inevitable if it continues like this and maybe it is for the better in the long run.

 

[B. Munich]

The issue is that the other teams have no room to evolve. All clubs bar Bayern are lacking behind because there is no more domestic growth potential and the Bundesliga as a product is unattractive for international audiences.

That's hasn't happened over night and the cause is mismanagement. Bayern are the only well managed club. Hertha got 400 million Euros and got relegated, Schalke had a faithful fan base like no other club, the Arena is filled with 60k almost every match despite getting relegated. The HSV has the fanbase and investors but bobbing around in Ligue 2 since 5 years. But hey, it's all Bayern's fault other clubs aren't successful.

And it being unattractive for international audiences has much to do with Bayern's habit of dismantling competitors the second they made the league interesting again

Again without Bayern the league would be even less attractive for international viewers. 50+1 and the radical protests of the ultras doesn't help to attract investors too.

The Super League is inevitable if it continues like this and maybe it is for the better in the long run.

It will happened sooner than later but I hold any bet. The Bundesliga without Bayern will be even harder to sell to the international market.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

How was his football at Chelsea? Didn’t really pay much attention as I thought he’d never realistically be an option for our manager position.

People who didn't watch matches closely will say it was dire because of total goalscoring outputs but it ignores the fact that we were a chance-creating machine. This is why Lukaku was thought to be a game-changing signing at the time - all we lacked under Tuchel was consistent finishing.

 

[kaiser1]

It will happened sooner than later but I hold any bet. The Bundesliga without Bayern will be even harder to sell to the international market.

Without Bayern there will be as much interest as Eredivisie generates

At least Ajax doesn't take players from PSV and Feyenoord

 

[GhastlyHun]

Are we finally finding a lineup and tactics which give us some okayish stability and good offense? (Surprise, Müller plays)
Too bad it's already too late for two competitions, while the remaining one is only a pipe dream. And too late for the manager of course. Wasted season and back to square one for the next.

 

[Swedish_Plumber]

Are we finally finding a lineup and tactics which give us some okayish stability and good offense? (Surprise, Müller plays)
Too bad it's already too late for two competitions, while the remaining one is only a pipe dream. And too late for the manager of course. Wasted season and back to square one for the next.

Square one being an easy march to the title after once again stealing the threats from your challengers?

 

[GhastlyHun]

Square one being an easy march to the title after once again stealing the threats from your challengers?

Ideally.

 

[es-muellert]

I think the difference between the Bundesliga and the other three top leagues Premiera Division, Premier League and Serie A is that even if you have a dominant team for several years in the latter, it's not structural. You have other teams that legitimately can claim the goal of becoming champions and that is backed by their resources to be able to assemble great teams in the long run. Despite Juve dominating the Serie A many years, Inter and AC Milan would have never accepted being just second best as the status quo.

Even when Barcelona was dominating Real Madrid big time, Real would have never accepted just to be there when Barca has a weak year. You could feel the rivalry strongly on and off the pitch, maybe more than ever. Compare that to Dortmund after Klopp...

And yes, transfers between the two are few and far in between and when it happens it's a huge topic such as when Figo went to Real and not just business as usual. Even Tottenham which is a second tier top team at best would refuse to sell to man city.

For the same reasons I cannot see any other teams bar PSG as real competitors in France, even if they become champions every now and then like Monaco and Lille. Monaco was even helping PSG with a loan model so they could get their best player

I agree with @Zehner here. If such transfers are regarded as business as usual, it just undermines the other clubs status as legitimate challengers and makes the league less attractive for neutral fans. And it has little to do with having to sell players. Even Bayern has to sell players if the players refuse to extent contracts (e.g. might be the case with Davies soon).

What I do not see though is the assumption that a change would directly correlate with more tv revenue. This has not been true for Italy and even in the Google search image he shared, you need a lot of good will to see a direct correlation with Klopp's Dortmund years. It's rather a constant rise in search results in general for both leagues with clearly higher interest from 2017/2018 than in the Klopp years for the Bundesliga. This theory is not really backed by the data we have and I think there are other factors that are far more important when it comes to tv revenue.

 

[Zehner]

That's hasn't happened over night and the cause is mismanagement. Bayern are the only well managed club. Hertha got 400 million Euros and got relegated, Schalke had a faithful fan base like no other club, the Arena is filled with 60k almost every match despite getting relegated. The HSV has the fanbase and investors but bobbing around in Ligue 2 since 5 years. But hey, it's all Bayern's fault other clubs aren't successful.


Again without Bayern the league would be even less attractive for international viewers. 50+1 and the radical protests of the ultras doesn't help to attract investors too.


It will happened sooner than later but I hold any bet. The Bundesliga without Bayern will be even harder to sell to the international market.

Bayern was the club that commercialized the earliest and turned their good early work in a lead that is now barely catchable from a financial point of view and consequentially also from a competitive one. But I wouldn't say that the management since Hoeneß return was better than that of many other clubs in the league which have been making more out of their possibilities than Bayern. At the very least since the last UCL win.

But again, this isn't the point. The issue is that the league is hard to market outside of the domestic market because Bayern exploits their position like the chip leader in a poker match. And as said, they wouldn't even need to if they instead decided to focus more on the international market. This has much to do with Hoeneß and his FC Deutschland ambitions, IMO.

And I know that Bayern is the flagship of the Bundesliga but an interesting competition is simply more important. It is actually quite sad that Bayern doesn't seem to see it that way because ideally, it would go hand in hand with their ambitions.

I think the difference between the Bundesliga and the other three top leagues Premiera Division, Premier League and Serie A is that even if you have a dominant team for several years in the latter, it's not structural. You have other teams that legitimately can claim the goal of becoming champions and that is backed by their resources to be able to assemble great teams in the long run. Despite Juve dominating the Serie A many years, Inter and AC Milan would have never accepted being just second best as the status quo.

Even when Barcelona was dominating Real Madrid big time, Real would have never accepted just to be there when Barca has a weak year. You could feel the rivalry strongly on and off the pitch, maybe more than ever. Compare that to Dortmund after Klopp...

And yes, transfers between the two are few and far in between and when it happens it's a huge topic such as when Figo went to Real and not just business as usual. Even Tottenham which is a second tier top team at best would refuse to sell to man city.

For the same reasons I cannot see any other teams bar PSG as real competitors in France, even if they become champions every now and then like Monaco and Lille. Monaco was even helping PSG with a loan model so they could get their best player

I agree with @Zehner here. If such transfers are regarded as business as usual, it just undermines the other clubs status as legitimate challengers and makes the league less attractive for neutral fans. And it has little to do with having to sell players. Even Bayern has to sell players if the players refuse to extent contracts (e.g. might be the case with Davies soon).

What I do not see though is the assumption that a change would directly correlate with more tv revenue. This has not been true for Italy and even in the Google search image he shared, you need a lot of good will to see a direct correlation with Klopp's Dortmund years. It's rather a constant rise in search results in general for both leagues with clearly higher interest from 2017/2018 than in the Klopp years for the Bundesliga. This theory is not really backed by the data we have and I think there are other factors that are far more important when it comes to tv revenue.

Very well put! Worth mentioning at this point that many of the runner up clubs are actually have similar financial muscles to many big Italian teams, for instance. Or at the very least the potential for it. It's not as if there couldn't be any big teams besides Bayern in Germany, there absolutely could.

Regarding the graph: It normally should be flattened to isolate the up and downs in interest from the general growth. It would already help if you could include a timely filter because the peaks in the Klopp years would be much more visible if they weren't overshadowed by the now higher base level. But I think you can still see it in the screenshot I posted.

 

[giorno]

Nah, the real problem as pointed out previously is that even within Germany there is only 1 truly huge club - Bayern. The others can't ever compete because they're not big enough

Spain has 2 humongous clubs, plus a number of big to decent sized clubs. Italy has 3 huge clubs. England has 4 huge clubs, plus a state funded monstrosity. Germany? It's Bayern, plus a bunch of spurs-sized-or-smaller chancers...

 

[Zehner]

Nah, the real problem as pointed out previously is that even within Germany there is only 1 truly huge club - Bayern. The others can't ever compete because they're not big enough

Spain has 2 humongous clubs, plus a number of big to decent sized clubs. Italy has 3 huge clubs. England has 4 huge clubs, plus a state funded monstrosity. Germany? It's Bayern, plus a bunch of spurs-sized-or-smaller chancers...

What do you define as small sized?

 

[giorno]

What do you define as small sized?

Domestic fanbase

 

[Zehner]

Domestic fanbase

Bayern, Dortmund and Schalke should be among the top 10 worldwide in that category and Frankfurt probably among the top 20. In terms of members, they are.

 

[BayernFan87]

There are countless other leagues that have way more parity than the Bundesliga. I'm not going to say no-one gives a feck about them because that isn't true, but there simply isn't a correlation between league parity/competitiveness and external interest.

City have won the PL 5 times in the last 6 years (that may turn to 6 in the last 7). United won 8 of 11 after Sky invented football in 1992, that coincided with rise in foreign interest in the PL. Meanwhile, look at Serie A. Interesting from top to bottom. Inter, Napoli, Milan and Juventus have won the league in recent years. Is the league popular?

Given all of that, I don't understand why Bayern should voluntarily neuter themselves relative to their domestic rivals for a premise that isn't based in fact. Also, why are their domestic rivals so useless in holding onto talent (coaches and players)?

Anyway, this rhetoric about Bayern "ruining the league" is partly driven by fans of PL clubs who are upset that Bayern, not their clubs, are where talent in the Bundesliga gravitates towards.

100% this.
This argument that the Bundesliga would me more followed around the world if it wouldnt be so one sided can easily be dismissed with the Serie A as you did.

It can even be dismissed with the Bundesliga itself.
Between 2001 and 2009 the Bundesliga had 5 different winners (Bayern, Dortmund, Bremen, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg) and was certainly more unpredictable.
Was the Bundesliga more popular in that era? No!
It was in fact even less popular because we barely had any world class players.

The PL is followed around the world the most because of the non existing language barrier and the most world class players.
La Liga is second because the 2nd lowest language barrier for south america and the 2nd most world class players.
Serie A and Bundesliga are only 3rd or 4th placed but certainly not because they have enough different champions or not.

Please, ffs, stop that myth that Bayern is destroying the Bundesligas appeal in other countries. There is absolutely not evidence for that.
Without players like Kane or Musiala or Robben and Ribery in the league even less people would watch it.

 

[BayernFan87]

What I can deduce from this graph
1. Dortmund winning 2 titles under Klopp brought no increased interest. Didnt make a difference nor did Wolfsburg Stuttgart Bremen wins

2. Both leagues were neck to neck until around 2018. You know what happened in 2018? There was no league winner change in either league Juve was on their 7th title and Bayern on their 5th. A global icon Ronaldo joined the league and thus naturally more people were interested in the league Ronaldo played in. I bet if Bayern brings in Messi we will see a massive change in numbers

I will do this for Bundesliga vs Ligue 1 in the past 5yrs
If you notice Bundesliga vs Ligue1, Bundesliga was comfortable ahead UNTIL July 2021 when Messi joined and Ligue 1 caught up. after Messi left in Summer 2023, Bundesliga took the lead again
I am unable to embed image but you can check in this link for Bundesliga vs French league
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today 5-y&q=/m/037169,/m/044hxl

Spot on. @Zehner shot himself in the foot with this statistic and his very questionable Interpretation.

 

[Zehner]

Spot on. @Zehner shot himself in the foot with this statistic and his very questionable Interpretation.

The Serie A literally outpaced the Bundesliga after the Juve lost their first title and the Bundesliga only caught up in May 2023 because of a head to head race for the title. I have no idea how you could interpret that any differently, it paints a pretty clear picture.

 

[giorno]

Bayern, Dortmund and Schalke should be among the top 10 worldwide in that category and Frankfurt probably among the top 20. In terms of members, they are.

What's the size of the domestic fanbases. Don't tell me about worlwide top 10 or 20, it means nothing to this argument. It's strictly about the size of the domestic fanbase and the domestic perception of those clubs as Bayern's equals or at least rivals

 

[Zehner]

What's the size of the domestic fanbases. Don't tell me about worlwide top 10 or 20, it means nothing to this argument. It's strictly about the size of the domestic fanbase and the domestic perception of those clubs as Bayern's equals or at least rivals

That is exactly what I mean. They have the fan base but they aren't perceived as rivals. Dortmund has more members than Arsenal and similar commercial revenues but Bayern established to everybody that they are no rivals to them in the early to mid 2010s. Before covid, Frankfurt and Schalke (despite being an absolute mess of a club) were among the top 20 in commercial revenues in Europe, not far behind the Italian big players.

If you want stats on that, just google the top 20 football clubs in terms of memberships. The sources aren't distinguishing between domestic and international members but I think it is fair to assume that German clubs have the lowest percentage of international members since the league also has the lowest proportion of international revenues.

 

[Member 117152]

That's your point, nothing more than your opinion.
I live for over 25 years abroad and I can tell you without Bayern the brand of the Bundesliga would be dead already. In Bangkok, Singapore or Kuala Lumpur nobody cares about other teams maybe bar Dortmund. If only one match a week is broadcasted it will be Bayern against whoever.

The problem isn't Bayern, the issue is the ligue has no team which is actually challenging Bayern, except for an odd season every 10 years.
If other teams can't keep their teams together and develop them, this won't change. Whether their players go to Bayern or abroad doesn't have any major impact on the Bundesliga. However, it determines whether Bayern will be competitive internationally or not.

This is the problem with football in general. Apart from maybe England it’s the same everywhere. Look at Valencia these days compared to the past. They are a joke.

Football is stacked in the favour of just certain clubs. England / Italy have successfully managed to diminish it a bit and keep it interesting… even if City sometimes just run away with it. Italy was just an overall drop in standards in recent years from Juve.

Bayern don’t even have to be that good and win regardless. It’s embarrassing to watch at times. Same in the French league with PSG, just a mess caused by greed in the game to give resources to one team.

Basically just to falsely give one side per division a chance to carry a nations champions league hopes as they have easy games mid week.

People wonder why Bayern dominate in Europe so much at times. Not all ability. They can play a second string and just prepare for a Prem side. Good luck doing that in England they’d get some of those pastings they have Arsenal a while back.

 

[giorno]

That is exactly what I mean. They have the fan base but they aren't perceived as rivals. Dortmund has more members than Arsenal and similar commercial revenues but Bayern established to everybody that they are no rivals to them in the early to mid 2010s.

You talk about members as if it means anything....Arsenal don't have members the same way BvB do. They are owned by a very small group of billionaires, there's no 50+1 rule in place

commercial revenue is an area where german clubs do better than anyone else thanks to domestic partners. Again, it doesn't mean a whole lot in this argument

The problem is that german football clubs lack the weight of history. Dortmund aren't rivals of Bayern because they haven't been for long enough. Becauer other than the one constant in Bayern, German football never established another truly huge club. Gladbach were massive in the 70s, then they disappeared. Hamburg were massive in the 80s, then disappeared. Dortmund had that period in the 90s, then disappeared until Klopp. None of those clubs created the sort of historic roots rise to Bayern's level

Right now the bundesliga is Bayern+17. Take them out and whatever interest you might draw internationally would be gone. No changing that

 

[es-muellert]

The Serie A literally outpaced the Bundesliga after the Juve lost their first title and the Bundesliga only caught up in May 2023 because of a head to head race for the title. I have no idea how you could interpret that any differently, it paints a pretty clear picture.

There's a difference between correlation and causality. If your theory was true, it should apply more widely but you've been given many examples when it didn't behave like that in this thread.

Also the assumption that more Google searches translate into more tv revenue is not proven at all.

For example I'm now checking dutch league results every weekend, just to see if PSV will pull off an unbeaten season. But I couldn't even be bothered to turn on their games.

 

[kaiser1]

Take Bayern out of the Bundesliga and it's basically Dutch Belgian league interest

 

[kaiser1]

The Serie A literally outpaced the Bundesliga after the Juve lost their first title and the Bundesliga only caught up in May 2023 because of a head to head race for the title. I have no idea how you could interpret that any differently, it paints a pretty clear picture.

The Serie A has outpaced Bundesliga since 2018 that Ronaldo joined

This is the chart of 2016 till now and Serie A was ahead even before Juventus lost the title

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2016-01-01 2024-03-10&q=/m/037169,/m/03zv9

 

[Zehner]

The Serie A has outpaced Bundesliga since 2018 that Ronaldo joined

This is the chart of 2016 till now and Serie A was ahead even before Juventus lost the title

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2016-01-01 2024-03-10&q=/m/037169,/m/03zv9

Come on.

 

[kaiser1]

Dortmund about to win in Munich for the first time in 10yrs
Another record broken by Tuchel

Get this fraud out now

 

[kaiser1]

Anyone can win with Bayern... Then comes in Tuchel

 

[Nani Nana]

Dier is not Bayern standards, nor are Musiala and Thomas Mueller

 

[Ish]

Dier is not Bayern standards, nor are Musiala and Thomas Mueller

Muller I can understand due to age, Dier is Dier - so agreed - wasn’t even good enough for Spurs basically. But Musiala seems a contentious one? Everyone seemed to be creaming themselves over him the past year or 2. I admittedly don’t follow them much outside of big UCL matches but he seemed dead on certain to be the future of Bayern and Germany. Has he been that bad?

 

[#07]

It's crazy to think Bayern literally pushed Nagelsmann out of the door to get Tuchel in. Tuchel has not done anything since to make you think that the juice was worth the squeeze. Surreal.

 

[Berbaclass]

Dier is not Bayern standards, nor are Musiala and Thomas Mueller

Musiala?

 

[reddev3]

Muller I can understand due to age, Dier is Dier - so agreed - wasn’t even good enough for Spurs basically. But Musiala seems a contentious one? Everyone seemed to be creaming themselves over him the past year or 2. I admittedly don’t follow them much outside of big UCL matches but he seemed dead on certain to be the future of Bayern and Germany. Has he been that bad?

He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Bayern director Eberl: "Jamal Musiala is NOT for sale".
"He is supposed to become the face of FC Bayern in the future".
"Jamal is a player who brings extremely great joy, it's our intention to make him the new face of Bayern", told Sky.

That was yesterday.

 

[Mb194dc]

He was going through a mid life crisis and no idea why Bayern hired him.

Seems like they'll reverse it in the summer.

Bayern have an inbuilt financial advantage due to F "F" P.

When and if they lose this year or even next as well they'll still win the next 95/100 titles due to that.

 

[Ish]

He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Bayern director Eberl: "Jamal Musiala is NOT for sale".
"He is supposed to become the face of FC Bayern in the future".
"Jamal is a player who brings extremely great joy, it's our intention to make him the new face of Bayern", told Sky.

That was yesterday.

Yeah, that was a very odd mention to include Musiala in there.

 

[Zehner]

It's crazy to think Bayern literally pushed Nagelsmann out of the door to get Tuchel in. Tuchel has not done anything since to make you think that the juice was worth the squeeze. Surreal.

Until the 3:0 defeat in our direct duel, Bayern was playing much better than at any point under Nagelsmann, IMO. They weren't as spectacular but far more consistent. I think their natural ambition became toxic after that and they self-destructed. What Tuchel had gotten out of a very thin squad until then was pretty impressive. It's probably not really known ourside of Germany but for some matches Tuchel only had 15 players available. At one occasion he had to play a CM at CB. Despite landing Kane Bayern's transfer windows were almost dilettante for a professional club. To think that Tuchel was still on course for a top 5 ever Bundesliga season until it all imploded is actually quite crazy.

Nagelsmann - at least the Bayern version - still has a bit of growing left to do before he is a true top coach, IMO. His playstyle is too erratic and moody.

 

[horsechoker]

What was the point in keeping him?

These lot are probably gonna lose to Arse too.

I think an interim might have at least galvinised the players to run Leverkusen close.

And some people want this guy here too

 

[Semper Fudge]

What was the point in keeping him?

These lot are probably gonna lose to Arse too.

I think an interim might have at least galvinised the players to run Leverkusen close.

And some people want this guy here too

Deeply disturbing.