I mean I guess we’re still around but there’s not much interest in trying to defend what can’t be defended. He struggling. I don’t agree with you that he’s a terrible manager. I think he’s one of better managers in Europe but fair is fair you have consistently been saying you don’t rate him, even at the height of his hype in 2021.
Thomas Tuchel | Gone to & from Bayern (In Summer)
- Thread starter Bastian
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I mean I guess we’re still around but there’s not much interest in trying to defend what can’t be defended. He struggling. I don’t agree with you that he’s a terrible manager. I think he’s one of better managers in Europe but fair is fair you have consistently been saying you don’t rate him, even at the height of his hype in 2021.
I think he is massively overrated, has a terrible personality, huge personal issues and plays shit on a stick football. So boring.
Still collected the most points after 22 match days since Guardiola was at Bayern. On course to the 8th best Bundesliga season ever. I mean, I love to see it but the way Bayern self-destructs is completely out of proportion. The whole club is completely toxic right now and that brings out the worst in Tuchel as well
Honestly, that squad in that league would probably do similar without a coach.
You think that squad is so good? I think apart from Kane and Musiala, it is very average by Bayern standards. Plus, it was incredibly thin in the first half of the season and is now decimated by injuries.
I mean, Kimmich, Davies, Sané and Coman are all good players but none to lift them up a level. And the likes of Mazraoui, Upamecano, Goretzka, Laimer, etc. are IMO not good enough but still primarily starters
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Make up your mind
Keeps shagging his players' wives
Uh oh...
The first few months of 2021/22 season with Chelsea were still excellent though. After 14 rounds we were top of the league with a 10W-3D-1L record and 33-6 goal difference.
Then within a couple of weeks we lost Chilwell, James and Kante to long term injuries and it all fell apart very quickly. Tuchel's system at Chelsea was 100% reliant on quality wing-backs bombing forward and Kante doing Kante things in midfield so it was not much of a surprise it all went to shit without them. I honestly believe we'd have put up a proper title challenge that season had those three stayed fit.
The points have been okay up until a week ago, but the collapse of the last three games surprises nobody who has seen this Bayern play and not just looked at the table. We had 'stabilized' on a shit level after Tuchel came in for Nagelsmann and never improved from that in a consistent manner.
Who in this squad smashed the UCL?
Neuer, Kimmich, Davies, Goretzka, Gnabry, Muller, Hernandez, Coman all still there. Replaced Lewa with Kane.
Hernandez is thankfully gone.
Why not sack him and bring flick as an interim? They're on the verge of a dry season and it doesn't seem to work out , why take the risk.
Threads always seem to start to underrate squads when managers start to do badly. This Bayern squad is still one of the best in Europe.
They have a better squad than Chelsea, United, Barcelona, PSG, Liverpool (the Klopp effect) and a whole host of others. Probably only City and Real better it in the whole of Europe.
This is 100% on Tuchel and a large part of the toxicity is caused by him and his terrible football.
He should be playing so much better with the players at his disposal. I don’t understand the desire to play down how good they are. It takes away from what Leverkusen are achieving too.
They have a better squad than Chelsea, United, Barcelona, PSG, Liverpool (the Klopp effect) and a whole host of others. Probably only City and Real better it in the whole of Europe.
This is 100% on Tuchel and a large part of the toxicity is caused by him and his terrible football.
He should be playing so much better with the players at his disposal. I don’t understand the desire to play down how good they are. It takes away from what Leverkusen are achieving too.
In hindsight, that UCL win comes with an asterisk if you ask me. They won it in the first covid year after a very long break that distorted European football. Since then, they've been pretty underwhelming. It's been four (!) years since they've last won the cup. They've finished above 80 points once (!) in the last 5 years. For comparison: In the previous 6 years, they've finished below 80 once and twice over 90. Their goals against since they've won their first Bundesliga title after Klopp's titles at Dortmund look like this: 18, 23, 18, 17, 22, 28, 32, 32, 44, 37, 38.
Honestly, I wouldn't swap squads with Bayern right now. I think ours is better player for player. IMO only Kane, Musiala and Neuer would start for us. Maybe Sané as well. 10 years ago, even their squad players were better than our starters.
You can’t possibly believe this. This is a Leverkusen squad that finished 6th last season and added Xhaka, Boniface and Tella.
This is a prodigal manager with a good squad, not a great one.
Bayern are way better man to man. You are falling into the trap we United fans do when we are playing well and calling Shaw world class.
If Alonso goes to Bayern next season, they will finish at least 15 points ahead of Leverkusen. I would take that bet any day of the week, no matter who comes in there.
I think it wasn't as bad as you describe it. I caught many games of yours and most of them were okay in terms of control and dominance as well as chance creation. Nothing special but not terrible either. The understat xPts table still has you as first by the way with 52 expected points to our 48. And the ponts haven't been okay, IMO, but excellent, especially considering the circumstances. The squad was extremely thin with Tuchel at times only having 15 players available. You almost had to play Goretzka as a CB in your match against Dortmund. And as said, your best players aren't what they used to be either. You have no midfielder of Thiago's, Kroos' or Schweinsteiger's quality, no wingers of Robben or Ribery level, no CBs on Hummels or Boateng level, no full backs on Lahm level, Müller and Neuer are shadows of their former selves, etc.. Add to that the circumstances in which Tuchel took over (I doubt he'd agree to that again) and that he got none of the players he asked for in the summer (CDM, CB/RB hybrid) and instead they even sold two players he needed (Pavard and Stanisic) and I think the treatment he got is extremely unfair. It is actually incredible that he managed to collect the most points since Guardiola despite all these obstacles.
I think the damage is already done now and Tuchel is essentially finished but if you don't make drastic changes, I expect you to be in for a very rude awakening next season as well. No idea which coach that is available as well could realistically get more out of this squad than Tuchel did this season.
they may as well go full Spurs and bring in Conte. All this talk of Ole though is interesting, he could do a great job as an interim. There would be something beautiful and poetic if Ole was to go on and lift the Champions League with Bayern, beating City in the Final.
Heck, i just noticed, the Final this year will be 25 years since Ole scored that goal against Bayern.
Heck, i just noticed, the Final this year will be 25 years since Ole scored that goal against Bayern.
Leipzig are ***** like Dortmund. They´ll roll over for Bayern.
Weird post. Leipzig actually won the Supercup against Bayern this season and got a draw in the first league match. Last season they won and drew in the league, but lost the Supercup. Overall Leipzig is unbeaten four matches in a row now against Bayern. That's kind of the total opposite of what Dortmund does.
fell out with his players in 4 of his last 5 jobs and while still seemingly having their backing at Roma they were Roma. At a bigger club with bigger players the stuff he said and pulled would have had the players sack him halfway through his second season
So it is. I hate getting old.
Kimmich is just a good player and wouldn't get into the Leverkusen side. They're just like Arsenal fans 
Yes but his whole success and the plethora of titles he has was built on him getting players to love him. Granted I think football, and more importantly, football players have changed compared to his heyday but you can't take that away from him.
I actually think if Bayern want an interim, he's easily the best option. The negatives he brings are negated as it's a temp role and in return you get a tactically great manager who is extremely good in knockout games/finals and knows how to win Europe without having to have hundreds of millions thrown at a team. You'd never want him long term, he seems so volatile and reactive these days, but if they want to try and retain the BL and win in the CL, I don't think there's really much competition between him and some of the other names.
I also want him back in football for the drama, although he likes Alonso so he might not go after him. I just don't want him at United.
I get why you think that and I'd probably come to the same conclusion if I were you but I genuinely don't believe this is the case and think that five years from now, you'll agree with me. I mean, it's only logical to be skeptical because we're speaking about one season but what about the Bayern players? Who of them have more to show for? In many cases, their great reputation stems from that one UCL winning season as well. Since then, they haven't exactly set the world on fire.
Wirtz is currently clearly ahead of Musiala, Xhaka is playing every bit as good as Kimmich in his very best seasons, Palacios is closely behind him and definitely ahead of everything I've seen from Goretzka so far, Grimaldo is having a similarly outstanding season with as many if not more iconic moments as Davies in 19/20, Frimpong is scoring like crazy and close to Coman's prime level plus Frimpong and Grimaldo are almost always available what can't be said about their injury prone equivalents in Munich. Moreover, our CBs ahave been ridiculously good. I don't think Tah, Tapsoba or Kossounou are any worse than Kim was last season or de Ligt was in his breakthrough season for Ajax. And Kossounou has probably been the best out of the three and completely outshines everything Upamecano has done so far in his career.
Kimmich is just a good player and wouldn't get into the Leverkusen side. They're just like Arsenal fans
Who would you play him for?
Ole winning a CL with Bayern would be all time football. Needs to happen.
But surely you are basing this, in large part, in their performances under two disappointing candidates in Bayerns case, and one that looks to be heading to the very top of the game in Alonso’s?
The Bayern players have underperformed due to questionable coaching and motivation, but they still have a CL and multiple league titles, despite the questionable personality and quality of their recent coaches.
A lot of these Leverkusen players are having the best seasons of their careers under this particular coach this season. Again, they were 6th last season with roughly the same squad, nowhere close to the mix. Form and ability are two very different things.
If Bayern grab Alonso from Leverkusen then whats the point of that league anymore. Any team which threatens Bayerns dominance will simply be ripped apart by them in the transfer window and teams seem be more than happy to roll over for them and let them pick their players and managers without a fuss or fight.
I think your last sentence is spot on. You see the ability when watching us play
Just because Alonso has had an incredible impact doesn't mean that the players filling his system with life haven't been brillant on an individual level as well. The way Xhaka, Palacios, Grimaldo and Wirtz escape even the tightest pressing situations with ease isn't something you can teach every player, it requires great awareness, anticipation and technical ability.That aside, can't I say the same about the Bayern players? When people think of Davies, they think of his breakthrough season and not the last three rather disappointing ones - or that he's been benched occasionally for Rapha Guerreiro who Dortmund let go deliberately. De Ligt's and Mazraoui's reputations stem almost exclusively from that one UCL run with Ajax under Ten Hag, Kim's primarily from last season with Napoli, Upamecano is still the error prone unfullfilled promise he was at Leipzig. Kimmich as already mentioned has been an enigma for most Bayern and Germany coaches because of his ego. Laimer is totally average. Goretzka has been average the last three years as well. That's already 50% of their starters. I mean, it was still enough to win the league but IMO that is more of a testament to the state of German football in that time than anything else. Last season was the weakest points return of a champion since 2010. They were essentially back to pre-Klopp returns.
I also don't think that Tuchel is an underwhelming coach. For comparison: Tuchel achieved 78 points with a Dortmund squad in which Mkhitaryan, Weigl, Schmelzer, Sokratis, Kagawa, Ginter, Castro, Bender and Pisczek as regulars/starters.
Xhaka or Palacios obviously. Neither are better than Kimmich. Palacios is really talented but right now Kimmich is still better than him.
Much better for the league when Liverpool or Real raid Leverkusen for their assets, innit
This has been happening for as long as I can remember.
Better at what is the question. Alonso requires Palacios, Xhaka, Andrich (two of those three usually play) to keep their deep position to guarantee structure and organisation. Kimmich is worse than them at this task (which is why Tuchel wanted to sign a new DM but didn't get one).So I don't think it's obvious that he starts ahead of them
Funny, switch Xhaka and Kimmich in both teams and I'm pretty sure Bayern would be above Leverkusen. Think I've read a stat that all 6 games Bayern played without Kimmich this season were won, some even quite convincingly (already a feat for Tuchel at that club) and against strong oppos too.
That isn't Xhaka's role though, it's Palacios and Andrich more. So for Xhaka, Kimmich definitely plays. Palacios is the only player I would have a conversation with because he is really talented and doing well. Would you seriously say that if Bayern went to Leverkusen and said give us Andrich or Xhaka and we'll give you Kimmich, Leverkusen will say no?
Dortmund are hardly a strong opposition for Bayern, I would only count Stuttgart in that. Other than that it's Heidenheim, Augsburg, Wolfsburg and Gladbach. All of them were bottom half of the table. And funny you don't mention Leverkusen, where Kimmich also didn't start but Leverkusen were very comfortable.
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In the current setup yes, I would not be surprised if Leverkusen says no. And it is absolutely Xhaka's role to play more defensive and "holding" than what Kimmich usually does.
There is only one exception, and that is kind of an off-pitch discussion one would need to have with Kimmich: If he understands and accepts that he is not there to lead in any way, but that his only job is to put in a shift in a specific position and nothing else, so essentially accepts a massive step down in his own expectations towards his importance to the team, than he might be great. He too often seems to want to do everything on his own, which makes him and his team worse.
I think they're playing every bit as good as Kimmich in his best season.right now. And right now, they're quite obviously better. Tuchel didn't even start Kimmich against us and subbed him off after 60 minutes against Bochum. He's easily the most criticized player among Bayern and Germany fans this season because he plays hero ball and is tacticslly indisciplined.