Thomas Tuchel | Gone to & from Bayern (In Summer)

Zehner said:
Thing is, we're currently playing a very special season. Only twice a team had more points than us after 18 matches: 49 in 2015/16 and 50 in 2013/14. So essentially, only Guardiola coached Bayern teams with Ribery, Robben, Thiago, Müller, Boateng, etc. in their prime. If that's the expectation, you have to fire every coach who's not named Guardiola. Before the last match, Tuchel was actually on track for the best points total in seven years or so. And he has such a thin squad that a few times only four players were on the bench and has to play players out of position to field a decent starting eleven.

Can't imagine they'll sack Tuchel with that in mind. Especially not after the Nagelsmann debacle last winter.
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I confess I don't know much about the BL, so it's just a guess from the distance. But I think Bayern could be tempted to think that Xabi would raise their level both in terms of style and results, so it wouldn't surprise me if they approached him to become the manager for the coming season.

If I'm not wrong when Bayern won the treble under Heynckes he had another year in his contract, but Pep got available and they shook hands with Juup. This is what I mean in the sense that they don't hesitate.

I took a look at Bayern this season before we played the last game in the CL this season and they got battered by a mid table team. This last result at home isn't normal either.

So when I see their ruthless approach towards managers, Tuchel doing fine but with some odd results here and there, and Alonso flying with Leverkusen, it wouldn't surprise me to see the outcome I mentioned before.
 
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Zehner said:
Thing is, we're currently playing a very special season. Only twice a team had more points than us after 18 matches: 49 in 2015/16 and 50 in 2013/14. So essentially, only Guardiola coached Bayern teams with Ribery, Robben, Thiago, Müller, Boateng, etc. in their prime. If that's the expectation, you have to fire every coach who's not named Guardiola. Before the last match, Tuchel was actually on track for the best points total in seven years or so. And he has such a thin squad that a few times only four players were on the bench and has to play players out of position to field a decent starting eleven.

Can't imagine they'll sack Tuchel with that in mind. Especially not after the Nagelsmann debacle last winter.
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Yeah people getting carried away with the idea of 'if you aren't 1st, you're sacked' at Bayern. You've scored over 50 goals in 17 games and have only dropped 10 points out of 51 available. Just because there's a title race, you don't get sacked!

Also wasn't Nagelsmann fired more for off the field instances and falling out with senior management + players.
 
Phil Osophy said:
I confess I don't know much about the BL, so it's just a guess from the distance. But I think Bayern could be tempted to think that Xabi would raise their level both in terms of style and results, so it wouldn't surprise me if they approached him to become the manager for the coming season.

If I'm not wrong when Bayern won the treble under Heynckes he had another year in his contract, but Pep got available and they shook hands with Juup. This is what I mean in the sense that they don't hesitate.

I took a look at Bayern this season before we played the last game in the CL this season and they got battered by a mid table team. This last result at home isn't normal either.

So when I see their ruthless aproach towards managers, Tuchel doing fine but with some odd results here and there, and Alonso flying with Leverkusen, it wouldn't surprise me to see the outcome I mentioned before.
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Bayern's ex-CEO (and today board chairman) Rummenigge has voiced his expectation / hope that Alonso will one day be Bayern's manager for years now, so them approaching Alonso is indeed to be expected when things continue the way they are now.

In case of Heynckes/Pep I think it was the case that Heynckes contract was over, but when he wanted to extend Bayern had already approached Pep? Something like that. But yes, Bayern don't hesitate to upgrade on good managers if they think an even better is available, that has been proven multiple times. Replacing Nagelsmann with Tuchel actually is an even better example for this as they actually sacked Nagelsmann mid season and didn't even let him finish it.

You are right, Bayern got battered in Frankfurt. Who are not just any mid table team but in the last decade have always been able to get shock results against big teams. Which includes them winning a cup, an EL (which included destroying Barca as a top team in the German perception) and surviving the CL group stage on their first try (which is incredibly rare). Them winning at home against Bayern is at least not unusual, but of course that's a reason for concern for Bayern in itself, just as is exiting the cup early for the third time in four years.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
That's not entirely fair because a few of them were either caretaker managers (Heynckes first and last stint, Jonker, Sagnol) or left on their own volition (Hitzfeld, Pep).
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I didn't mean it as a criticism, it's just an observation.

Especially since 2016 they didn't mess around. Ancelotti lasted around 1 year, similar for Kovac. Flick spent one season and a half and Nagelsmann slightly more. No manager has completed two full seasons at Bayern since Pep, after 2016.

I don't know their plans with Tuchel but as I said, from the distance, I wouldn't bet a penny on him being there next season or even finishing the current one.
 
stefan92 said:
Bayern's ex-CEO (and today board chairman) Rummenigge has voiced his expectation / hope that Alonso will one day be Bayern's manager for years now, so them approaching Alonso is indeed to be expected when things continue the way they are now.

In case of Heynckes/Pep I think it was the case that Heynckes contract was over, but when he wanted to extend Bayern had already approached Pep? Something like that. But yes, Bayern don't hesitate to upgrade on good managers if they think an even better is available, that has been proven multiple times. Replacing Nagelsmann with Tuchel actually is an even better example for this as they actually sacked Nagelsmann mid season and didn't even let him finish it.

You are right, Bayern got battered in Frankfurt. Who are not just any mid table team but in the last decade have always been able to get shock results against big teams. Which includes them winning a cup, an EL (which included destroying Barca as a top team in the German perception) and surviving the CL group stage on their first try (which is incredibly rare). Them winning at home against Bayern is at least not unusual, but of course that's a reason for concern for Bayern in itself, just as is exiting the cup early for the third time in four years.
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Interesting, thanks for the clarification.

And apologies to Frankfurt fans. :cool:
 
Phil Osophy said:
I confess I don't know much about the BL, so it's just a guess from the distance. But I think Bayern could be tempted to think that Xabi would raise their level both in terms of style and results, so it wouldn't surprise me if they approached him to become the manager for the coming season.

If I'm not wrong when Bayern won the treble under Heynckes he had another year in his contract, but Pep got available and they shook hands with Juup. This is what I mean in the sense that they don't hesitate.

I took a look at Bayern this season before we played the last game in the CL this season and they got battered by a mid table team. This last result at home isn't normal either.

So when I see their ruthless approach towards managers, Tuchel doing fine but with some odd results here and there, and Alonso flying with Leverkusen, it wouldn't surprise me to see the outcome I mentioned before.
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Mentioned it earlier but I think Alonso will be Ancelotti's successor and that this is more or less a done deal. It's his #1 club, it's the biggest club in the world, they were pursuing him already in the last summer when he hadn't yet set the league completely on fire and he and Ancelotti extended shortly after each other despite being all but announced as Brazil's coach. It's only speculation but I think that Alonso wanted to continue at Leverkusen until 2025 since he plans his career in three year episodes so all parties basically postponed the rotation one or maybe even two years. There were even reports when Alonso extended with us about how he communicated it to Perez etc.

But yeah, in general I get your sentiment towards them sacking Tuchel for Alonso. I just think with all the stuff that happened around Nagelsmann, their own shortcomings in the squad planning and Tuchel's generally strong performance, there are many arguments to the contrary.
 
The Bayern fans I know absolutely hate the way they play. I still think they'll eventually claw back Leverkusen and win the title but they say even if that happens, Tuchel was an awful experiment they'd like to end at the end of the season.
 
Sarni said:
I'm not so sure. Leverkusen seem very consistent. Granted though they have played a game more so it is essentially a 4-point gap.
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Their knees will buckle once Bayern string their wins together. Another defeat will quickly follow their first when it comes.
 
Sarni said:
I'm not so sure. Leverkusen seem very consistent. Granted though they have played a game more so it is essentially a 4-point gap.
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Leverkusen are a couple of key injuries away from a potential collapse. Don’t have nowhere near the squad depth that Bayern have.
 
DJ_21 said:
Leverkusen are a couple of key injuries away from a potential collapse. Don’t have nowhere near the squad depth that Bayern have.
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Actually it's the other way round this time. Alonso could afford to rest a lot of his first choice players in the cup and EL matches while Bayern had to field whoever was fit all the time.
 
Tuchel has always been severely overrated on here so I’m not hugely surprised he’s struggling and had Bayern fans moaning. Plays a really boring brand of football.
 
Watching people from hundreds of kilometers away explain the dynamics of the Bundesliga to actual Germans who follow it closely is hilarious
 
stefan92 said:
Bayern won 13 of 17 matches. They ARE stringing wins together all season.
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Yeah but we know the pressure will ramp up the longer they’re top of the league, especially if Bayern close the gap to less than 3 points then every match is basically a nerve wracking dog fight to stay in front. Essentially I think Leverkusen need the gap to Bayern to be bigger than 7 (4) points for me to really believe they can do it.
 
He's a known prickly character, I don't like him as a manager.

People defending him saying he needed players, he's been given the world's best striker.
 
WeePat said:
Yeah but we know the pressure will ramp up the longer they’re top of the league, especially if Bayern close the gap to less than 3 points then every match is basically a nerve wracking dog fight to stay in front. Essentially I think Leverkusen need the gap to Bayern to be bigger than 7 (4) points for me to really believe they can do it.
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Yeah, I agree with his take. It just grinds my gears when people make it sound like Bayern is playing weakly and could just shift into a higher gear. That's just wrong, and it's unfair to both teams in the title race.

This isn’t a fight between two limping teams that’s decided by who is the least stupid like last season between Bayern and Dortmund, this is a race between a very strong Bayern and an extremely strong Leverkusen and it should be discussed as such.

Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
People defending him saying he needed players, he's been given the world's best striker.
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Bayern signed Kane but hugely messed up their defense area in the summer. They failed on deadline day to sign Palinha, they sold Pavard and loaned Stanisic (on deadline day!) and failed to sign a replacement CB. Only now they got Dier for this. Their squad was so thin that they had to rely on a kid to perform (Pavlovic) and had to use Goretzka as a makeshift CB as well. Despite playing kids in some matches they didn't even have a full bench because they just didn't have more available players that could be trusted on that level.

It is actually amazing what results Tuchel is getting with this team - and yes, Kane papered over a lot of cracks, that definitely helps.
 
DJ_21 said:
Leverkusen are a couple of key injuries away from a potential collapse. Don’t have nowhere near the squad depth that Bayern have.
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Actually, the exact opposite is true.

To illustrate how short of options Bayern are: Right now, their only RB (Mazraoui) is injured. His absence was foreseeable though, since he'd be playing the Afrika-Cup if fit. Currently, his position is played by Laimer who actually is Bayern's third CM behind Kimmich and Goretzka. Since they can't play every game, Bayern had to play 19 years old academy product Pavlovic who showed some promise but is nowhere near starting material right now. The other option is to play nominal left back Guerreiro. The only problem is: Guerreiro is one of only two relatively injury prone left backs. Over the last 5 Bundesliga seasons, Guerreiro has played around 2000 minutes on average, Davies had even less. But CM and FB aren't the only positions in which they are running out of players. With Kim, De Ligt and Upamecano, Bayern has only three CBs in their squad. One of which currently plays the Asia Championship. De Ligt just recently returned after being injured for months due to Tuchel having to rush him back from a minor injury at the start of the season. All this has led to Bayern at times only having four (!) players on the bench, all of them attackers (!), and almost having to play a CM as a CB in the prestigious match against Dortmund!

In contrast, Alonso in the first game after the break voluntarily rotated Tah out although our two other starting CBs are with their national teams. Our RB back up Arthur (Brazilian international) has been injured since the start of the season and Frimpong had to be subbed out in the first half against Leipzig due to an injury as well. In came Tella who immediately scored. Our best scorer this season, central striker Boniface, injured himself in Nigeria's training and is going to be absent until April but we can bring in Schick who scored 27 goals two seasons ago and scored a hattrick in his first start of the season, plus Hlozek who so far scored or assisted every 120 minutes in his Bundesliga career. Against Leipzog, Palacios was injured as well but for him, Andrich will be playing - who was a starter for us last season and already complained about too little playing time. Just like Stanisic - our RCB cover who we loaned out from Bayern. He plays now but will be benched again when Kossounou returns. Ironically, he left Bayern for us to get more playing time but Bayern are now in desperate need of a player like him. Our weakest position in terms of depth is probably LB - where Grimaldo plays who has been playing relentlessly for the past five years or so without major absences. His cover is our LCB Hincapie who is probably our best bench player who many thought would be a pillar stone for us this season.

So.. currently 7 players are missing, five of them starters, and we are still farther away from running out of options than Bayern. The only injury that would really concern me is Wirtz as his class is irreplaceable, IMO. But we are working to bring in another striker and another AM in the winter :)
 
If Kane doesn't win the Bundesliga and Spurs some how pull off the PL, that would be one of the funniest things ever.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
Not for Bayern standards in the Mickey Mouse leagues
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Bayern had a worse win percentage in the last three years, it was the same in 19/20 and you have to go back to 15/16 to see them having a higher win percentage. They are performing ABOVE their usual standard in the league this season, not below!

I'll happily discuss if it looks boring, isn't entertaining and all this. But these are facts and it's becoming quite tiresome how these facts are downplayed just because Bayern is currently second in the league. I can only repeat again and again: It's not Bayern's fault that they are second.
 
El-Manos said:
A deal which is sorted 2 years in advance ? Not a very common practise is it.
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Let's put it this way: I don't think any documents have been signed but I think all parties generally agree that Alonso will follow Ancelotti as Madrid coach.

Madrid generally planned to part ways with Ancelotti in 2024 who wanted to retire from club football and take over Brazil. Since Brazil officials basically confirmed this, I think that much is beyond doubt. After that, it becomes speculation: I believe Real's favorite as his replacement was Xabi, especially after his strong start into the season. Xabi was undecided since you don't say no when Real Madrid comes calling but he also wanted to stick to his career plan instead of leaving behind unfinished business and possibly missing out on important experiences before taking over a top club. After Madrid started successfully into the season as well and Ancelotti proved open to continue for another season, they decided to postpone Xabi's appointment and give him a bit more time.

So for me, the question is rather if he will go there in 2025 or 2026. I was expecting 2025 but the fact Ancelotti extended until 2026 irritated me a bit. Possibly Xabi wants to be with us three full seasons instead of 2.5. Or they just evaluate the situation again in 2025.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
He's a known prickly character, I don't like him as a manager.

People defending him saying he needed players, he's been given the world's best striker.
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He's still got the problems he had with us most likely. Crazy personal life, rumours he was with Werner's missus and he also had a new Brazilian.

I don't think he's fully focused on the job...
 
Mb194dc said:
He's still got the problems he had with us most likely. Crazy personal life, rumours he was with Werner's missus and he also had a new Brazilian.

I don't think he's fully focused on the job...
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Christ, what do these women see in a man who looks like Tom Hanks from Philadelphia
 
Mb194dc said:
He's still got the problems he had with us most likely. Crazy personal life, rumours he was with Werner's missus and he also had a new Brazilian.

I don't think he's fully focused on the job...
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He's seems a very good manager when things are going well. Once they don't, he melts down and has a spat with the owners and/or complains about something that gets him sacked.
 
Well, you´d probably call people ignorant and worse, if United was on a 97 points pace in second place in the EPL, and Bundesliga fans would call out ETH for underperforming. :lol:

Leverkusen are unbeaten in like 30 games over all competitions with a +60 GD and on pace to break the all-time points record in the Bundesliga. Bayern being four points off is their best season in years and it´s probably largely down to Tuchel and Kane. Every previous year they´d already be dead and buried. Maybe their football is not the prettiest, but Tuchel usually does set-up his teams to maximize results. Let´s put it this way: Kimmich/Goretzka are not fighting Sule/Hummels/Schlotterbeck for the title this year. #GetExcitedForEuro2024Germany
 
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