I kid you not, I remember a poster saying they rated Tuchel because he was ‘active on the touchline’ and Ole wasn’t.
Thomas Tuchel | Gone to & from Bayern (In Summer)
- Thread starter Bastian
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I posted this a couple of years ago. Tuchel vs Lampard at Chelsea. Take out Tuchel's new manager bounce and he was actually worse than Lampard for much of their respective tenures. Yet one is a laughing stock and the other is a world class coach?
He is extremely fortunate to have joined late in the season and won that CL. His entire reputation is built on it.
I don’t particularly like or rate him but he’s on a much higher level than lampard or Solskjaer and has actually won a few things
delighted he’s not starting well here though
delighted he’s not starting well here though
So you cut out Tuchel's best period and you cut out Lampard's worst period and then you think that's a suitable basis for a comparison?
Not to mention "his entire reputation is built on it"? When Tuchel got the Chelsea job based on his performance at previous clubs, wheras Lampard got it for being a Chelsea legend?
Regardless of how one rates Tuchel, I think it's pretty obvious that the squad/club was already imploding behind the scenes. Hence the curious sacking of Nagelsman with the hope of a positive reaction with a new manager which didn't happen. Club is in total shambles for a long time.
"total shambles" obviously regarding Bayern's standards. Kahn/Salihmidzic have a long way ahead of them if they truly want to rebuild the club structures to the positive - if they aren't replaced by then.
"total shambles" obviously regarding Bayern's standards. Kahn/Salihmidzic have a long way ahead of them if they truly want to rebuild the club structures to the positive - if they aren't replaced by then.
If Bayern should take their next manager from another BL club, I would bet on Xabi Alonso.
He surely seems like the most likely candidate - in this unlikely scenario - but even with redcafe IQ it must be a bit too much of a stretch, to call a team that probably hasn't finished within 15 points of Bayern in 10 years a direct rival.
Looking at some discussions on here I am quite sure that some posters would not even realize that Bayer and Bayern are not the same club, so I have to respectfully disagree here.
Or you could look at it as cutting out the 10 games or so around the manager change. For three quarters of the season they were on the same points per game.
Anyway, Tuchel is on his way to finishing second in a one horse race so when he is sacked it will be interesting to see where he can go next.
Focus on your job and next season, we'll make sure it'll be two seasons in a row without a league title for Bayern!
Heaven forbid that Bayern aren’t sat at the top of the table for every single week of the season or that they don’t win every single trophy. Jeez, have a day off you boring twat of a club. I know it’s a clubs mission to be as successful as possible but at what point does it become greed? The game of capitalism is to earn more money, so should I only be satisfied once I have all the money? Every single bloody penny?
He's not going to get sacked this season no matter what happens. He wasn't signed to save this season, which was going fine, but to prevent him from going anywhere else.
I think the board realize they messed up the squad by replacing Lewandowski with Mane, who hasn't worked out at all, and that they need a striker for next season.
I wouldn't rule anything out to be honest. I absolutely love it but what's happening at Bayern is total madness and I imagine some of those responsible for that would do everything to distract from themselves. Hoeneß is still pulling the strings and he seems to have lost the plot completely at this point if there was any truth to the rumours about his son as Kahn's successor.
There appears to be so much club politics right now that it wouldn't surprise me if Tuchel indeed became another pawn, even if it makes no sense for the club at all.
Beautiful to see, really
Brazzo might be my favourite person in the world right now!When you win so much as Bayern you get comfortable and lazy so this is actually good thing for the bavarians. This shakeup is very much needed and it could be used as a wakeup call for the club.
I wouldn't rule anything out to be honest. I absolutely love it but what's happening at Bayern is total madness and I imagine some of those responsible for that would do everything to distract from themselves. Hoeneß is still pulling the strings and he seems to have lost the plot completely at this point if there was any truth to the rumours about his son as Kahn's successor.
There appears to be so much club politics right now that it wouldn't surprise me if Tuchel indeed became another pawn, even if it makes no sense for the club at all.
Beautiful to see, really
No one currently in charge at the club could afford to sack Tuchel, it would basically finalize the Nagelsmann sacking as one of the worst management decisions in the history of the club. They will stick with him and hope he turns it around, so they can ride out the pressure.
I think mid season WC is the root cause of the collapse.
No other team had thang many long-term injuries and mentally shot players returning from Qatar.
Nagelsmann thought it's a good idea to give the team 4 and half week off to clear their heads. In comparison English teams just continued with the season.
Obviously this didn't work out as planned. On top he couldn't rebuild necessary fitness levels in pre season.
This the players weren't not only mentally weak but also physically not at their best. This explains the 16 points dropped after leads and the many poor second half performances.
I even don't blame Nagelsmann much because this mid season WC was unchartered territory for all clubs.
Once the damage was done, there is no way to fix it in a fixture packed season. Similar to United and Rangnick last year.
No other team had thang many long-term injuries and mentally shot players returning from Qatar.
Nagelsmann thought it's a good idea to give the team 4 and half week off to clear their heads. In comparison English teams just continued with the season.
Obviously this didn't work out as planned. On top he couldn't rebuild necessary fitness levels in pre season.
This the players weren't not only mentally weak but also physically not at their best. This explains the 16 points dropped after leads and the many poor second half performances.
I even don't blame Nagelsmann much because this mid season WC was unchartered territory for all clubs.
Once the damage was done, there is no way to fix it in a fixture packed season. Similar to United and Rangnick last year.
I'm sure the world cup didn't help, but the problems, e.g. Mane not working out and Bayern lacking a Lewandowski replacement as a consequence, were already visible before. And the bad impact was not inevitable, Brandt, Süle and Schlotterbeck were part of the same WC outfit, Schlotterbeck even had a highly visible mistake and they became the backbone of Dortmund's 2023 success.
Bayern has two major groups, the German and the French players. All were mentally down after the WC. The only player with a positive experience was Mazraoui and he was out for months.
Thus Nagelsmann thought it's great to give the team over 4 weeks off. This was, at least for me, the key mistake. The players lost match fitness and Nagelsmann failed to get necessary fitness levels back in pre season.
Examples are Leipzig, Frankfurt, Hohenheim, Mainz but also in matches Bayern won like Stuttgart, Wolfsburg or even Dortmund. Bayern always dominated the first half, took the lead and were in control only the loose points in the second half or let the teams back in the game. This is absolutely not Bayern like and can only be explained with poor fitness levels.
Just realized they are second in the league and that's cos they lost 3-1.
This has been a disaster so far right?
This has been a disaster so far right?
The results definitely. Exited the cup (lost at home against Freiburg), exited the CL against City and lost the lead in the league.
But as argued above this likely is a case of he came too late to stop the downward spiral, because it isn't just a mental problem, but Bayern lack physical fitness as well.
Part of the reason why Bayern won ten titles in a row is that they always were able to turn around games, if necessary in extra time. This season it consistently feels the opposite, even if they lead in a match you ask if they will get through. And far too often like yesterday against Mainz they won't.
There always seems to be a ready made excuse for Tuchel. Dortmund aren’t ambitious enough, PSG is a circus, Chelsea had off field issues and now he has arrived at the wrong time at Bayern.
He seems to be a decent tactician who can set sides up well in one off games, but his league form has never been great and I think he is extremely overrated as a coach.
He seems to be a decent tactician who can set sides up well in one off games, but his league form has never been great and I think he is extremely overrated as a coach.
He has managed Mainz' best ever BL season and Dortmund's second best ever, and in general his Dortmund side was the last time Dortmund really challenged Bayern head to head (since then they only won a cup in a season Bayern embarassed themselves in the second round and nothing else).
Saying his league form has never been great is just false.
“Never” might be an exaggeration, but it’s interesting that the two examples you have given were both after Klopp and were both at smaller clubs where players might be more inclined to accept an authoritarian approach. (No offense to Dortmund fans, but they are run like a smaller club with no real ambition to win big trophies)
I don’t think he has the personality to manage at big clubs, and I don’t think he has managed a big team that have ever played particularly great football consistently.
He isn’t among the elite manager bracket for me and that will be exemplified if he somehow contrives to fail at Bayern Munich, of all clubs. No matter what the excuses are.
"both after Klopp", as in Klopp finished 4th (in the 2nd division) with Mainz, then another guy coached the entire next season and following pre-season and only then Tuchel took over and had success until the 6th year since Klopp's departure. I take it you were a big Mainz enjoyer at the time?
I would disagree on Dortmund as a club. In the late Klopp and following Tuchel years they absolutely saw themselves as the true and ambitious challenger and wanted to win titles. Settling for being second best happened more recently, during Tuchel's time they were still willing and able to challenge Pep's Bayern, but after the bomb attack and the following dispute between Tuchel and the board this got lost.
That's a fair point I think, he just tends to use a pragmatic approach, not an aesthetically pleasing. I don't think that his personality is a problem however, at least not for the success of his teams.
If he fails at Bayern I will agree. But I won't judge him on this season, as I am convinced that the board messed up by not sacking Nagelsmann far earlier (in fact I think they messed up by signing Nagelsmann at all).
There was no downward spiral under Nagelsmann he was competing for a treble with a 74% win rate when he was fired, it will go down as one of the most ridiculous sackings in football they’ve completely blown their season
He had two decent finishes prior to that, so it’s not like like they weren’t accustomed to competing before that blip. He did well.
A lot of managers have done well at smaller clubs and failed to translate that to consistent top level management.
Did you watch Bayern play this season? I can't remember another season where they looked consistenly that vulnerable. In the league they had the worst ppg average since ten years and the only reason it didn't blow up earlier in the season is that Barca and Dortmund usually shit themselves when they have to play against Bayern.
They was still digging out the results though at the minute they’d struggle against Wrexham theres a massive drop off
Surely your first point would indicate that the start of Dortmund’s decline was Tuchel? The politics and fractured relationship with the board was a problem that he left, after one cup win and a third place finish.
He has now left Dortmund after rumored clashes with the board, PSG after clashes with Leonardo, Chelsea after rumored issues and there are already murmurings of discontent about him after only a few games at Bayern.
Surely there can’t be this much smoke without fire when it comes to his personality? It’s an issue when it contributes to tension behind the scenes and contributes to eventual sackings.
That side of the game is part of being a top coach nowadays and he consistently plays his hand very badly.
No I think he was the last one preventing that mental decline from being a true challenger to a distant follower and the clashes with the board partially happened because of that.
But I agree that he definitely isn't acting very diplomatically when dealing with his bosses and that doesn't help him.
I don't even like the guy, but the way you try dismiss the meaning of everything bar his work for Chelsea, where he still won the CL, is ridiculous.
He didn't just do well at Mainz, he performed miracles and he's a big reason for why they now have a fairly safe spot in the first division, instead of being a random team in the second.
At Dortmund his first season was a low key miracle as well, considering how things had ended under Klopp and the following year he did great in the CL, until the bus attack, and eventually won the cup.
At PSG he had a season north of 90 points and got them to the CL final.
And you summarize that as "failed to translate that to consistent top level management", what the heck?
I mean we all know that he has a toxic personality and that talking himself out of his job seems inevitable, but before that happens he clearly does good coaching work - unfortunately.
No they weren’t getting results… Dortmund had just gained something like 10 points on them in about 2 months.
The only "luck" involved in that UCL win was for the opposition that we didn't beat them by more.
They had lost 3 all season and beat Inter, Barce and PSG in the CL
However bad you’re trying to argue they were under Nagelsmann they’ve dropped off a cliff since he left
I agree that Mainz was good, but as I said, they had been a mid table team before then. It was a good job, but it wasn’t miraculous. He had one particularly great season after getting them promoted.
Dortmund had some very good players and I still remember there was a debate as to how well he was doing at the time, particularly in his second season. Again, a good job, but nowhere near the miracle you claim. Again, they blipped, but they had won the title under the last boss.
I just think that his football isn’t great and the wealth of talent he had at his disposable in Ligue 1 doesn’t convince me of his abilities to consistently provide quality football and good league form at big clubs. His football at Chelsea was never convincing after his initial period of clean sheets. He lost his job because of it.
They had a very good first half of a season last year under Nageslman and then played hard to watch football with mediocre - to abysmal results in the second half (lost 0:5 in the Cup to Gladbach and went out in the CL against Villareal). Had again a very good start this season and played unconsistent eversince - after the WC even that bad that a mediocre Dortmund made up, what, 9-10 points on them til Nagelsman got fired being second in the league that they should sleepwalk. But those were just the (lacklustre) results: Most of the (partly extremely well payed) players had no form at all and as a whole showd incredibly lacking positional play at that time with the young talents seeing little to no minutes as well. Bayern in the past were mostly good with their 4 at the back system, Nagelsmann still thought it a great idea to kick in his 3 at the back, which didn't really work, so he switched to a 4atb - got some results that kept him floating to switch back to his 3atb system: he looked lost. Those were imho the main public reasons he got sacked and also rightly so. Nagelsman is extremely talented but also extremely well hyped. His Leipzig side did feck all after all in the big games, cup was won after he left, and his Bayern side only impressed when everything went in their favor.
Not sure if you really watched those games under Tuchel but imho they played quite well against City over both matches most of the time and mainly Rodri's strike of god, Upamecano's individual mistakes + lack of true no9 / goalgetter made it that one sided. Out of the cup vs Freiburg per lucky strike and could have easily scored eight vs Dortmund so a 4:2 win doesn't read that great. Draw vs Hoffenheim after brilliant free-kick (first time Hoffenheim scored after a set-play this season). They do look way more comfortable with the ball now which was something Nagelsman was/is totally neglecting in his sides and imho will make it hard for him to succeed at elite clubs if he doesn't get this sorted out on his side. With a proper pre-season and the obviously faulty collection of indiviuals to form a real team I can see Bayern play much differently and much better next season.
Also, a midfield of Kimmich and Goretzka will never work (consistently). We saw that in the German NT and Bayern much too often to not being obvious - I'll rate Tuchel mostly if he has the balls (and power) to send Goretka packing or introduce a tactic that works with both (doubt it).
You‘ve obviously watched them a lot more than me so I’ll take your word on how they’re playing but for me I’ll never be convinced that sacking him at that point in the season made sense and when Dortmund win the league the board will have a lot of explaining to do.